Ep 63: Finding Your Place in a Community
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SARAH: Hey what’s up hello. Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl (I’m Sarah. That’s me.)
KAYLA: And a demi straight girl (that’s me, Kayla.)
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else that we just don’t understand.
KAYLA: On today's episode: America.
BOTH: — Sounds fake, but okay.
(intro music)
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod! (sniffs; both laugh) This week's episode is really just "Sounds Sick But Okay."
KAYLA: "Sounds Sick But Okay." Coming to you live from this audio medium is a lot of coughing and sniffling.
SARAH: And just stuffy speaking.
KAYLA: And just... we probably sound terrible.
SARAH: I'm sure you can hear that we're sick. I just continually keep getting sicker, which is cool.
KAYLA: I haven't, like... riding steady on my amount of sickness for a couple days, but I know it's about to get worse. Like, every morning I wake up and it's, like, a little bit worse.
SARAH: Today is the worst I've been. My voice is the worst.
KAYLA: I need to sneeze.
SARAH: (before sneeze) Bless you. (Kayla laughs) Okay! But anyway! We hope you enjoyed last week's episode. Sorry, again about the fact that that musical is not actually up.
KAYLA: Welp, not our fault!
SARAH: Yep, it's not our fault. (laughs) So I hope you enjoyed that episode. I think our patrons were wrong, it's okay.
KAYLA: It's fine.
SARAH: It's fine.
KAYLA: Thank you, also, to all the new listeners we have!
SARAH: Yeah! We have so many new listeners.
KAYLA: Our article came out in the Daily, which is very exciting. It was such — I read it, like, a thousand times because I'm obsessed with it.
SARAH: If you're an old listener and haven't read it, it is on our Twitter. Read it if you want!
KAYLA: Yeah. I'll link it in this week's description. But it's very good, and I know there's a lot of new people that've found us now.
SARAH: I posted it on Facebook and my dad commented and he goes, "Wow, I can't believe I was mentioned in The Michigan Daily article," because they quoted me saying—
KAYLA: That you're...
SARAH: That I'm my father's daughter, in the article. "Like wow!"
KAYLA: Also quoted in that article is Sarah talking about how great her Twitter—
SARAH: (clapping to emphasize each word) Gassing up my own Twitter.
KAYLA: And I cannot... and it also, like, isn't necessary. Like it's funny (Sarah laughs), but, like, truly didn't need to be included in the article.
SARAH: Oh yeah.
KAYLA: Which is very funny.
SARAH: Listen. Constantly gotta gas up that Twitter.
KAYLA: So anyway. That was a really good experience. And it's a good article! So you should check it out.
SARAH: So this week — the idea for this week's pod episode — it came about because I was...
KAYLA: Sarah was procrastinating!
SARAH: I'm obsessed with Ireland.
KAYLA: It's true. She is.
SARAH: I have never been to Ireland. But I'm obsessed with it. And I was... just... the British Isles, in general I think, are pretty lit. And I've only been to Edinburgh in Scotland, for like two and a half days. Not very long. But I was thinking and I said, why the fuck am I obsessed with this place I've never been before? And I thought of this because I was doing homework and I was listening to Irish folk music.
KAYLA: And I got a string of like ten texts. Like, Sarah was down the hall in her room, I was in my room, just trying to sleep, probably.
SARAH: Why were you...
KAYLA: Oh, no...
SARAH: ... Sleeping at that time?
KAYLA: Oh, I was studying.
SARAH: Okay.
KAYLA: That's why I kept—remember? Cuz then you were like, "Alright, we need to both go back to studying." Even though I wasn't answering you. So I was trying to study because I'm a (overemphasizing “w”) working lady. And Sarah... just a string of fifteen texts of, first of all, pod ideas, and then also a reminder of Sarah's love for Irish folk music. (Sarah laughs). Which I don't need a reminder of. I have known you long enough.
SARAH: But anyway! Cuz I do have, like... if you ask a White American, like, "What are you?" they'll give you a bunch of percentages.
KAYLA: Yeah. What are your percentages, Sarah? Let's go through our percentages.
SARAH: I don't really know what the percentages are, but I am Irish, Welsh, probably just all of the British Isles. I'm German, I'm Italian, I'm... those are the big ones.
KAYLA: I'm, like, I think 25% Polish, and then 12.5% Italian, and then a huge mix of everything else. What's interesting, though, is I am less Italian than I am Polish. But this is what I look like.
SARAH: And I am Italian.
KAYLA: I think you're more Italian than I am, and that's what you look like.
SARAH: Yup.
KAYLA: Why? Genetics.
SARAH: Just look at our Twitter — the pale one is me.
KAYLA: And I am the one who looks, to many people, not white. But I am. So, surprise.
SARAH: But I feel very connected to my Irish heritage. For some reason. Even though I've never been to Ireland and I really want to go to Ireland. And so I was like, "I'm kinda curious about this." Cuz, like, my whole — my last name of Costello. There are three different versions of that last name. One is Italian, one is Spanish, and one is Irish. Irish is always the last one that people think of.
(05:00)
KAYLA: Yeah, it doesn't sound very Irish.
SARAH: Yeah. So usually people think that I'm Italian, and then I'm like, well, I am, but my last name is not Italian. And then in Germany, the second one that everyone went to always Spanish, and I was like, "what?"
KAYLA: "Who do I look like to you?"
SARAH: It's Irish, but it kind came from the Spanish one? I don't know. It doesn't matter. But basically, my last name is Irish. And so my dad's side of the family, that's where I got my love of Irish folk music from. And my uncle one time — we have a family crest, cuz like all Irish names have one — and my uncle carved a wooden family crest, and it's at my grandparents' house.
KAYLA: Your family is so bizarre.
SARAH: (laughs) We're just into that for some reason. We have an ornament on our Christmas tree that's our little family crest. It's maize and blue, it's that fun?
KAYLA: It is fun.
SARAH: That's our university's colors. I'm obsessed with Ireland so I looked it up. I was like, why am I obsessed with Ireland even though I've never been there? And so I found this article that was talking about why Americans never call themselves just Americans. And it was this story about this guy who was abroad — an American man abroad — and he was in a bar and he heard this guy's accent and he was like, "Oh, where are you from?" and the guy was like, "I'm from Dublin," and he goes, "Oh, I'm Irish too." And the guy was like, "No, you're not. You sound very American." And so he went into all his percentages, and then the guy was like, "You're allowed to just say you're American." But then he was like, but why do we do that? Why do white Americans do this constantly? And like, a lot of times Europeans or people from other countries are annoyed when people say they're from their country when you're very clearly American.
KAYLA: Which is understandable.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Because, like, we're not. I'm not Polish. Like, I am not.
SARAH: Exactly. Cuz America's this whole, like, melting pot. Like everyone's from a bajillion places. And in my case all those places are very white places. But I'm still from many different places. So something that stood out to me in this article — this specific quote — it says, "But to be American you have to do something that people of other countries have never had to do" — which may be a bit of an exaggeration, but whatever — "You have to figure out how you fit into America. ... If you come from one of the many groups that have been marginalized by that shared American history, whether it be because of your gender, class, ethnicity, skin color, or sexual orientation, it can be hard to see how you fit into America." And I was like, that's interesting. Like, how is my experience of my identity different because I'm American, versus if I were from a place that, like... cuz, like, American is a national identity; it's not an ethnicity.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: So, like, if I were from somewhere that had a national ethnic background, would I experience my identity — including my sexual orientation — differently. And I don't know. But, like, one of the things I was thinking about when I was thinking about this, was that in the United States, there's a precedent for marginalized communities and how they're treated because there are so many marginalized communities in our country's history. As a white person, I live a fairly privileged life just because I look the way I do. But, like, a hundred years ago that would not have been the case because I descend from Irish Catholics.
KAYLA: A hundred years, I would've been considered Black. Sicilian people, I am (coughs)
SARAH: Mmm!
KAYLA: I am Italian but specifically I am a Sicilian. And Sicilian people were considered Black. Which, uh, no they're not.
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: I mean, like, Sicily was taken over by Carthage, which was in Africa. So there's some crossover. But, like, no.
SARAH: I have Italian blood and then Irish Catholic. And those were both groups of immigrants to the United States that were looked down upon, even just a hundred years ago. Even though we consider those people to be white. There's a precedent of what we do when minority groups come into our country. And sometimes we accept them and sometimes we don't. Pretty much any community in the United States started out as a marginalized community for some reason. Even the white people who came here in the first place, a lot of it was religious freedom. So, you know, whatever. (pause) You keep making a weird position with your mouth.
(10:00)
KAYLA: So I'm just, like, mouth breathing but I don't wanna just hold my mouth open, so I'm like biting my lip.
SARAH: Doing it weird.
KAYLA: I don't wanna, like, (makes sucking noise)
SARAH: I was like, are you... I could not tell what was happening.
KAYLA: I'm doing my best.
SARAH: So, like, then I was thinking, I was like, "Okay, does that make it easier to find community in this country? or does it make it harder?" Because on one hand there's this precedent of people are used to coming into this country as marginalized groups, so people have learned how to deal with it. But on the other hand, in the United States — if we're talking about community based on, like, sexual orientation — if you're in the United States and you are a member of the queer community, that's probably not the only thing that's setting you apart from the quote-unquote "norm," just because the United States is, you know, a melting pot or whatever. And so I was thinking, there are likely many things that divide you other than your sexuality, and so that probably makes it harder? America's a weird place.
KAYLA: I think it definitely would make it harder. Cuz if you even look at the queer community or, like, the first — every wave of feminism, is very white. And Black feminists really had to do their own thing for — still! Because in the normative feminist wave they just weren't included. Like, intersectionality is not something that white people are really here for.
SARAH: Like as a group, in America.
KAYLA: Yeah. I definitely think it would make it harder if you are trying to be... cuz that makes it like communities within communities. Cuz then you have the queer community, but then you have the Black community within the queer community. That just separates it even more.
SARAH: I have a note in here that just says, "Quick reminder of the 'I thought you were American' vine." The one where she goes, "I'm a lesbian." And the guy goes, "I thought you were American."
KAYLA: I just watched that vine this morning.
SARAH: But, like... this doesn't seem related, but I promise it is. Jumping back to the ethnicity thing of people being like, "I'm 12% this," Americans always seem to want this connection to their past, or they, like, fabricate one because there is no one past in American history. And 23andMe is a huge thing in America.
KAYLA: Yeah, I was just gonna say that. 23andMe and all those companies have been huge lately. Like, everyone's doing it. Even people I know that, like... I guess this is a different case, but one of my aunts was adopted from Korea. And so I think she recently did one, because she doesn't know anything about her biological family. So she recently did one to be like, "Am I actually fully Korean?" So that makes more sense. But, yeah, people are obsessed with it.
SARAH: Basically, because the United States is the product of imperialism, (Kayla laughs sardonically) and then we imperialized other people even though we said we wouldn't... Anyone who's been here a really long time, whether they're white or not, doesn't totally know...
KAYLA: Like how they got there.
SARAH: Quote, "what" they are, as we say in America. So I understand that urge to want to know. I haven't done 23andMe, but my sister did, and it's like, they're the same.
KAYLA: It's interesting.
SARAH: It was very interesting to me to find out... I was like, I'm less German that I thought I was. Interesting.
KAYLA: What I think is interesting to think about is... if you think about it — I suppose it depends if you subscribe to a particular religion or how you think the first people came to be — everyone came from somewhere. People didn't just spring up in Ireland. They got there from somewhere. But for places like Europe and Africa, that was thousands of years ago that the first people got there. Thousands and thousands and thousands.
SARAH: Much, much longer than that.
KAYLA: Yeah. Like thousands and thousands of years ago. What's different about America is, like, we just started getting here.
SARAH: We can try and trace our families back.
KAYLA: It's possible to trace it back. So what makes me wonder, like, how long is that gonna last, of us being obsessed with this? Because eventually you're gonna be one percent everything. Even looking at me, I have two nationalities or, like, ethnicities, whatever, that I can pinpoint out, and the rest of it is a total blur. Like, it's a mutt.
SARAH: Yeah. It's like, I know I'm Irish, and I know I'm Welsh, but there's no way that I'm not from everywhere else in the British Isles.
KAYLA: Yeah. Like, there's just no way. So at what point are we going to keep having kids with each other until, like, it's everyone is just everything? Like how long is it gonna take until it's not a big deal anymore how you got to America?
(15:00)
SARAH: Right. And it's interesting to see which pieces of our ethnic history we hold onto. Like, I'm very connected to my Irish history despite the fact that I've never been there. But my grandfather on the other side of the family who has a fairly direct connection to Italy because his grandmother was an immigrant from Italy, like, when you think of stereotypical Italian Americans, think of the exact opposite of that, and that's what my grandpa's family is like. So it's just very strange, because he is not connected to that culture at all. Whereas I feel very connected to my Irish culture even though it's further away from me in terms of like how far removed I am.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Something I found out recently was that I almost had a different last name.
KAYLA: Oh yeah, you told me about that.
SARAH: So basically, my... in my family, my great-grandfather or someone, his birth name was Costello. But then his mom got remarried. And at the time, there weren't, like, a whole lot of rules about how names worked with divorce and stuff. And so he just ended up taking his mom's new husband's name. And then he ended up marrying someone who was actually like a servant, like a maid person, in the family. And she hated his stepdad. And so she was like, "I'll marry you, but only if you go back to your original last name." And so I almost had a completely different last name that wasn't Irish at all.
KAYLA: And wasn't it... your blood, it wouldn't have matched your blood either.
SARAH: Yeah, it wouldn't have been blood-related. And it's like, would I view my history differently if I didn't have an Irish last name?
KAYLA: What was the last name you almost had?
SARAH: Eisworth.
KAYLA: That's dumb.
SARAH: Yeah. Sorry if anyone who's listening has the last name Eisworth.
KAYLA: Well, it's just dumb because it's... whatever.
SARAH: And it's like, for my name, my favorite part of my name is my last name. And even if I did get married, I would never change my name.
KAYLA: I don't know what I'm gonna do about that. Because, my last name... like, I like it, but it's such a pain in the ass. That's the main reason I wanna change it, is just to get an easier one.
SARAH: You know.
KAYLA: But yeah. It wasn't my grandpa, but I think his dad was adopted or something. So for us, like you go back too far and you completely lose everything.
SARAH: And that's just, like... I feel like other cultures, they have those interests but they don't have to go searching for it because it's just, like... it's there. Like, there's one or two national identities and you kind of adhere to one, depending on where you're from. I mean, other imperialized countries, like people who are from Australia probably have a more similar experience to the United States. And then you also have Black Americans. They have literally no idea. If they are the descendants of slaves...
KAYLA: There's no way to know.
SARAH: There's no way to know. And you can look at your genetic history and try and figure out regions, but, like, you don't know...
KAYLA: There's almost no way to know.
SARAH: Because there's no record of it.
KAYLA: How long do you think — and do you think — it would take for "American" to become an ethnicity?
SARAH: I don't think it ever will.
KAYLA: Why not?
SARAH: Because, to my mind, the reasons why ethnicities become ethnicities is because that group of people spend a very long time where they are at. And usually they adapt to the environment somehow. Like, the reason why people from Scandinavia or from the British Isles or super far north are super pale is because of natural selection, right? They were there long enough that that became their racial identity. And then the ethnicity was kind of built around that. And I just think that because America is such a quote-unquote "melting pot" we're never going to define a single American ethnic identity.
KAYLA: Hmm. That makes sense.
SARAH: Yeah. And that's the tea. (pauses, laughs). And then also... back to the queer community...
KAYLA: Bringing this back to the...
SARAH: Bringing this back to our topic. While the queer community does go back quite a ways — I mean, it goes back forever — but it wasn't always in community. The connection that queer people have to that community is always a learned connection. Very few people are raised being taught queer history and raised, like, "Here's this thing that the queer community always does."
KAYLA: Yeah. It's very much an adopted family. Like you see drag queens having "mothers" — I think there's a very symbolic reason for that.
(20:00)
SARAH: Right. And also it's a history that's very specific to nationality. The things I know about queer history are things I know about queer American history. Or, at the very least, queer English-speaking history. There is no overarching queer history. There's no one specific queer community necessarily, if you're looking at it historically, that a person could be connected to. So it's like, I don't know anything about queer people in, like, Russia in the 1800s. I know nothing.
KAYLA: Even when I was in a queer media class and we did a bit of queer history, and it went back to... I think the earliest point we went to was, like, Oscar Wilde. Like, that was like the genesis of when the act of sleeping with someone of the same gender became an identity. Because before it was just a behavior. And until that time... Because of medical things people turned it into an identity rather than a behavior. But that's as far back... no one talks about the rest of the world.
SARAH: And a lot of it is just... it's not recorded in any way. I know it existed and I know some cultures were actually very accepting of it. Like if you look at the art of ancient cultures, it's like, that is very clearly two men, like...
KAYLA: What's interesting, though, is that conversation of behavior/identity. Because if you go back to ancient Greece where guys were banging all the time, they weren't gay. And we can't retroactively call them gay. Because "gay" didn't exist back then. Like, if those people were doing that stuff now and existed now, we would label them as gay.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: But, like, to them, that wasn't a thing. That was just something they were doing, and it didn't mean anything about who they were as people.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: So like even then it gets difficult because... the queer community here started basically like after the wars, when people started going to the coast. But for other countries, that labelling might have started at a different time.
SARAH: Yeah. And for other countries they may have been more accepting of that identity or just those behaviors. And then they became less accepting. I'm just thinking... I read — as I was looking up stuff about this — I read an article about this guy who is an American, and he is queer, and he was talking about how he wanted to go to Iran — where his family immigrated from — with a friend of his who is female who is also queer. And they were just concerned about their safety. Because... and that's the thing about Iran, too, is that back in the 70s, Iran was a very... [had] a much more, I guess, progressive, liberal view on women and that sort of thing? But then it got, you know, a change of government and that sort of thing, and that got shut down. So his friend was like, "We could pretend to be married." And he was like, "We could, but I don't think anyone would buy that." And so they were just talking about different places that are safer for LGBTQIA+ folks to travel and not feel like they have to "play straight." (pause) I got distracted by that... whaaat was I talking about? (laughs) I forgot what we were talking about. But...
KAYLA: I have a thing about queer history.
SARAH: Okay, then tell me!
SARAH: What I think is interesting, also, about — the fact that queer history needs to be passed on — is the AIDS crisis kind of wiped out all of that. It is difficult to pass on queer history no matter what, because you have to be in a group. And you have to have people who are older passing it down. And so I'm thinking, like, in the 80s and 90s that was a lot more common. Especially in cities you had drag houses and there were older people teaching the younger people their history, and "this is how our community acts." Like, "here's the norms," or whatever. But the AIDS crisis wiped out thousands of people. An entire generation of people that then were not there to teach anyone anything.
SARAH: And we have a very different experience — this generation, like the Millennial and the Gen Z generation of queer people — it's just like, we don't know our history.
KAYLA: Right. And I think that's honestly, like... a lot of people now talk about white gays and how privileged certain gay people are, and a lot of me wonders if... because the generation that died from AIDS would have been the generation to teach us.
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: So is the reason that people are so privileged now, and there's so much infighting in the community, and so much of that... is that because that generation is lost? Is that a big part of it?
(25:00)
SARAH: I don't know. Yeah.
KAYLA: Like, a lot of me wonders, like, thinks it must be. And I think a lot of things have changed historically, too. Like, lot of me thinks about [how] early gay activism was very outward and very public, and sometimes kind of violent and not very peaceful. And I wonder a lot about how that doesn't happen anymore. Like, when people protest it's a lot different now. But I think that also has a lot to do with 9/11 — after 9/11 happened, people were a lot less... people were a lot more hesitant to be radical in their protesting and political acts.
SARAH: And I think the way people react to rioting and more violent protest is very different now. Just because... even me, even if I believe in their cause, if a group who is protesting gets too violent when I don't think it's necessary, I'm like... Mmm.
KAYLA: I just... and maybe this is me, like — I think I'm probably romanticizing this — but just looking at old pictures of protests and everything, it just seemed like people were a lot more willing to fight and cared a lot more about what was going on, where people now... even if they were to be half as, like, violent or passionate, I feel like the way news works now would be labelled a completely different way.
SARAH: And I think, though, it is important to not necessarily always associate passion with violence—
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: —Because they can lead to each other but they don't necessarily have to. Like, I am all in on nonviolent protest. But I think part of the reason why we can view nonviolent protest in the way we do these days is because, again, of the American precedent of how we got here. And people always say, Martin Luther King, Jr. was more effective than Malcolm X, and Malcolm X was more violent, so, like, proof! But Martin Luther King Jr. wasn't completely nonviolent at all times.
KAYLA: And also if you look at the Stonewall riots. Like, that was the big turning point. And that was extremely violent. Was it a great decision? I don't know. I guess... my point is people aren't as angry anymore.
SARAH: I think people are angry. I think it may be true that not as many people are as angry. But I think there are people that are angry, they just...
KAYLA: They just don't do anything with it.
SARAH: They don't... it's because we're in a place where — at least in America — it is less of a life or death situation than it used to be. And so I think people are able to just set it aside a little bit more.
KAYLA: Yeah. I guess... I don't know. Especially looking back on history, these things seem a lot more organized into groups than they were. Events make more sense when you look retroactively. But a lot of me wishes that it could just be like that again — people could just be more organized and be angrier and be moved more.
SARAH: But then if you look at stuff like the Women's March, like, people are angry. (laughs)
KAYLA: That's true.
SARAH: It's just that when we're in it, we don't always see it for what it is.
KAYLA: That's true, yeah.
SARAH: If I had been alive during the Boston Tea Party (laughs) even if I had agreed that the taxes were way too high, I would've been like, "Why did you do that??" I would've been like, "Why did you waste all this tea??"
KAYLA: The tea!
SARAH: Just because that's like the kind of person I am. But in hindsight, it's a very, very important event in American history, the fact that... Those of you who don't know, Americans got mad — well, we were still a colony of Great Britain; we weren't independent yet — they got pretty mad about some taxes until they threw a bunch of tea into the ocean.
KAYLA: They were just like, Mm, nah. (Sarah laughs) They pillaged some British boats and just—
SARAH: Threw it in the ocean!
KAYLA: Yeah. Which is badass.
SARAH: And the fact that I'm able to criticize, I guess, more violent protests is, like, it's a show of privilege, as well. As a white person, my nonviolent protests are more likely to be viewed with respect and viewed as valid, than if I were a person of color, and that's definitely just me being able to come from that place of privilege. (sighs) I wish nonviolent protest always worked.
KAYLA: (laughs) Yeah.
SARAH: (softly) The tea!
KAYLA: That is the tea.
SARAH: Anyway. But basically there is no one overarching queer history. There is no... as much as we like there to be now, especially in the age of the Internet, there is no one overarching queer community. It's not like there's a person in charge. Like, we've mentioned it before — it's hard to... you know...
(30:00)
KAYLA: It's just very fuzzy.
SARAH: It's very fuzzy. The boundaries are fuzzy. The rules and the norms. Cuz when you have a national identity and you are part of that national identity, there are, to some extent, boundaries, and there is, to some extent, a leader. The fact that Donald Trump is quote-unquote "the leader of America" right now??
KAYLA: Not great.
SARAH: Not a big fan.
KAYLA: But true.
SARAH: But, like, it is... there's a more distinct boundary. Whereas with a group like the LGBTQIA+ community, some people think that... and that's true in America, too, that some people think that these people should be involved, and some people think that they shouldn't be citizens, or blah-blah-blah, blah-blah. But there are still laws about it. There's still a hard boundary. Whereas in the LGBTQIA+ community, there's not.
KAYLA: And even with just your ethnicity, like, you're either Italian or you're not. There's only...
SARAH: And maybe you're the one who gets to decide that? But, like...
KAYLA: But you either are or you aren't. There's no...
SARAH: You're the expert on your own, (laughs) like...
KAYLA: But with the queer community, even if you are queer, you don't have to be in the community. There's a lot of... there's no definitive answer about whether you're there or not.
SARAH: Mmhmm.
KAYLA: And what it means to be there.
SARAH: Yeah. And there's just kind of like these national queer identities and these groups of queer communities... Kayla, stop looking at your phone!
KAYLA: It's a very funny post.
SARAH: We're businesswomen.
KAYLA: I'm sorry.
SARAH: There are these national queer identities. And something I was thinking about in the ace community, because the ace community is — as a group, as a community, not as an identity but as a community — so young, to some extent it transcends that because it started on the internet. Like, it started online. But it was also... although it was started online and so it had a broader reach from the start, it was also a predominantly English-speaking community, a predominantly quote-unquote "first world" community, frankly very white community. So it has the ability to transcend all of these things, but that doesn't mean it necessarily does. And so I'd like it to be a community that has this real international presence, that people can feel like they can be a member of it comfortably regardless of their national identity or their ethnicity. But that's hard.
KAYLA: I think... I mean... I'm not saying that being ace is an American invention, but it is, a little.
SARAH: A little bit, yeah.
KAYLA: If you're going to think about... I know a lot of other countries, they worry about, like... "Well, trans isn't a thing, that's just something Americans invented, and you're not really..." whatever. And the lack of sexual attraction is not something that is made up. But to put a label on it and to put an identity on it is something that came from the Western world.
SARAH: I mean, all identities are constructed.
KAYLA: Right. yeah. I'm just saying, this particular identity was constructed in America, I'm almost positive.
SARAH: I think... let me double check.
KAYLA: If not, it was definitely an English-speaking country.
SARAH: He's American.
KAYLA: Yeah. David?
SARAH: David Jay is American.
KAYLA: David Jay, the guy that started AVEN, is American. So if you think of him as "the father of asexuality," (Sarah laughs) which I feel like I would. Like, he at least started the online community. Like it's a very American construction. And other people may feel that lack of sexual attraction and feel everything an ace person feels, but then not identify as ace because it's not "a thing"... it's just not "a thing."
SARAH: That kind of brings us back, it kind of circles us back to the concept of Americans connecting to these groups, to these national identities. It's like, because there is no one way to be American, because there are so many groups in America, we want to put ourselves in all of these groups. We want to put ourselves in all of these boxes. It's a thing that here, you know, I identify as a lot of different things in America. And if I were raised in a different culture, I may not necessarily identify with all these different things.
KAYLA: Right. You may not feel the need to.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: I think it is a very, like... America, now that I'm thinking about it, is just, like, a very cliquey country.
SARAH: (laughs) It is.
KAYLA: Like, it is, though. Because you can identify as lot of things, but... especially because, bringing in my [psychology] degree, (Sarah laughs) there's collectivist cultures and individualistic cultures. And collectivist cultures, it really... like you worry about the group more. Your identity comes from your whatever.
SARAH: Comes from the group.
KAYLA: Comes from the group. But as Americans, we are very concerned with "who I am."
(35:00)
SARAH: It's very individualistic.
KAYLA: And so we are very obsessed with figuring out who we are as people. So it matters a lot more to us to be able to figure out where we're coming from and who we're like, because we care about ourselves so much.
SARAH: We really do. I thought of something and then I forgot it. Oh! Also, just like, if you look at America — part of this is to do with just the sheer size of America — people identify a lot with where they're from in America.
KAYLA: The state, yeah.
SARAH: Like, I identify a ton with being from Michigan, from the Midwest, when I go elsewhere...
KAYLA: Oh, I am a Midwesterner, yeah.
SARAH: I am so defensive of the Midwest. Like, with people who aren't from the Midwest, I will defend it to the death.
KAYLA: Well, cuz it's like... it's a different culture.
SARAH: It really is.
KAYLA: Like if you... and I think the only reason this happens is because America is so big, and so people in certain areas tend to start being like each other and whatever. But if you look at the culture of the Midwest versus the East Coast versus the West Coast, like, things...
SARAH: Versus the South.
KAYLA: Versus the South.
SARAH: Versus the Great Plains.
KAYLA: Right. The norms, how people act, how people drive—
SARAH: (emphatically) Yes.
KAYLA: —In every state, is wild!
SARAH: Fuck Californian drivers. I've said it before, and I'll say it again!
KAYLA: But, like, the words we use... I just got in a very large debate about "pop" versus "soda." Can that please be the poll of the week? I need it to be!
SARAH: That cannot be the poll.
KAYLA: It's gonna be an extra poll.
SARAH: Secondary poll.
KAYLA: You can't stop me. It will be on there. But, like... I don't know where I was going. You started this. (both laugh) Anyway, I just got very passionate.
SARAH: Yeah, we just, we feel very strongly... and what about other really big countries, like Russia, China, Australia? To my knowledge, they don't have the same identification. Granted... Australia I just don't know. I know some Australians I could ask.
KAYLA: I'm thinking of like, Canada, too, because they have regions in Canada.
SARAH: They have their provinces.
KAYLA: The thing about Canada, though, is French Canadians do feel very strongly about their culture. And they have, several times, tried to separate from Canada. So that, I think, is a bit different.
SARAH: I'm just looking... again, I have a map of the world behind Kayla's head.
KAYLA: Ah, yes.
SARAH: And I'm looking at Russia, and Russia's huge!
KAYLA: Yeah, but people don't live all up in...
SARAH: People don't live everywhere, and also we have, as Americans, we have a very monolithic view of Russia, and China as well. I have kind of one concept of Russian identity is sort of like, and it's not very nuanced, so it's hard to say... it's hard to say. But yeah. Americans are very, very regionally connected to our states, and even connected to where we're from in the state, depending on where you're from. And so it's a very... these specific individual things are very important to the American identity.
KAYLA: I saw an example of that kind of regional thing in France. So I took French for however many years. Which means we also learned French culture stuff, and we watched a couple movies, cuz the French love their movies, and it was some comedy about this guy having to move up to the North of France, and how people just, like... I guess in the North of France they have this very interesting strong accent and dialect that's mixed with other languages, and so for that I was thinking, like, people in the South of France and people in the North of France, from my knowledge, there is kind of... it's kind of how we think, in America, of people in the North and the South.
SARAH: Germany is pretty similar. But I think it's a very... but I think in America it's very distinct. Because there are states in Germany. But they're way smaller than in the United States. Because Germany is about the size of Montana. So that's...
KAYLA: I also wonder if it's because of the way our country was made politically, is because there was such... there was this battle over the power between states and countries. When our country was born they put a lot of power into the states for a lot of monarchy reasons, but like, I think that must be a huge chunk of why.
SARAH: And if you look at Europe historically, the groups, the borders were constantly changing. And so there's this ethnic identity, but it's not always a super nationalistic view, whereas the American identity, from the inception of the Civil War. (laughs) Not the Civil War. Well, yes, that, but the Revolutionary War was a very nationalist view of things.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And the only other note I have is, that maybe American communities, or communities from other quote-unquote "melting pot" nations, are better equipped to handle communities like the ace community and like queer communities that are trying to be more broad and overarching just because we deal with those different identities on a daily basis? But also, is anyone equipped to handle that?
(40:00)
KAYLA: No. I do think it's very interesting, though, and I think that ace as an identity came about in a very interesting time. And I hope people research it more. Especially media scholars. Because it's... I think the fact that you can track the entire history online is an amazing opportunity that we don't have with almost any other identity of any kind. Like, the fact that you can track it from day one of when things are happening, is huge. And I really hope that people study that. Cuz I think it's... as a study of how communities come together, it could be...
SARAH: Especially in the 21st century.
KAYLA: Not just sexuality communities. Just as a study of people in general, I think, is... and I'm a nerd, so, whatever.
SARAH: Sociological studies.
KAYLA: I just think that to not study that is a complete missed opportunity.
SARAH: Seems legit. That's all I had to say. Do you have anything else to add?
KAYLA: Not really.
SARAH: Ok, cool!
KAYLA: Alright!
SARAH: What is our poll this week?
KAYLA: Well, I know our secondary poll.
SARAH: We'll do a secondary poll, but what's our primary poll? (both laugh)
KAYLA: The primary poll. This is a hard one because I know we have a lot of international listeners.
SARAH: Right. And I also know that this pod comes from a very American perspective.
KAYLA: Yup. Sorry.
SARAH: And part of the problem with the American perspective is it likes to pat itself on the back. And so I'm maybe giving more credit to America where credit is not due.
KAYLA: I'm sure we are.
SARAH: I'm sure we have. And so I don't really know what to ask. Especially a question that isn't privileging the American perspective.
KAYLA: Yeah. I mean, I don't know even how to write this in a question, but because I know we have so many international people, I want to know, like, is this a very American experience? Or are we totally off and this isn't unique to us at all? Like, we aren't special.
SARAH: I would like to know that. Like, how... like, are we talking queer communities, like the ace community specifically?
KAYLA: I don't know.
SARAH: Or like just the individualism of... identity.
KAYLA: I think maybe, like, the need to identify with... the great urge to identify with groups for your identity. Whether that be sexuality, gender, your hometown, any of that. Like, is that something that you strongly feel, or is that totally an American thing?
SARAH: Okay. So I would say, "I'm an American; yes," "I'm an American; no," "I'm not an American; yes," "I'm not an American; no."
KAYLA: Yup.
SARAH: "Yes" meaning "I feel that."
KAYLA: Like, "That urge is something that I have felt before or I recognize in people around me."
SARAH: Or that you feel regularly. Like, not a thing that you felt one time in your life (laughs).
KAYLA: Something that you understand.
SARAH: Like, I literally have a flag of my school's, like, thing on my wall.
KAYLA: Other countries...
SARAH: American flags everywhere!
KAYLA: Yeah, they don't do that...
SARAH: They don't do that other places! The number of German flags I saw while I was in Germany could be counted on one hand.
KAYLA: You know how the flags are at half-mast if... I don't even know the rules anymore.
SARAH: If an important person dies. Usually it's a political or military figure.
KAYLA: Yeah. How do you... is there an app that tells everyone that owns a flag, like, "Ope, today you've gotta put it down." I was walking on campus the other day and it was at half mast, and I was like, "How did they know?"
SARAH: George H. W. Bush died — that was a big one.
KAYLA: No, it was like a couple days ago.
SARAH: Could still be George H. W. Bush.
KAYLA: I guess. I don't often stare at flags.
SARAH: Yeah, I don't know how long you're supposed to be putting it at half-mast?
KAYLA: How do you know? Like, is there a website that, like, tells a bitch? (laughs)
SARAH: I don't know. You know what's really interesting—
KAYLA: No.
SARAH: —Is that when I was in Germany I saw, like, three German flags total. And my grandparents have someone who lives near them who has a German flag at their house. And I'm like, that seems so strange to me. Because Germans don't like to advertise their German-ness? Just a lot of it's, I think, because of the history of the country. And German listeners, you can tell me if I'm wrong or if I'm right. So it's really interesting to me that it's a very American thing for them to have the German flag.
KAYLA: The fact that every sexual identity has a flag.
SARAH: Whew! So American! Wow! (laughs)
KAYLA: The fact that, like... I've seen a lot of people talk recently about having a lesbian flag, which could be a topic for a whole other time. I think there's a lot of nuances with that argument that get into gender politics. But the fact that every sexual identity has colors and a flag, and people go to Pride and wave around rainbow flags, like... what?
(45:00)
SARAH: All of the U.S. states have their own flags; most of them suck. I have a lot of thoughts...
KAYLA: Ohio's is fucking round, dude. Ohio's flag is the only one that is not a rectangle. Which is absurd. I don't care if you're from Ohio, your state sucks.
SARAH: You will roast Ohio.
KAYLA: Your state fucking sucks, dude.
SARAH: You might be wonderful, but your state is not.
KAYLA: You probably are wonderful, but you should leave your state. You're too good for it.
SARAH: Unless you want to live at Cedar Point.
KAYLA: (laughs) I was just talking to someone the other day about how Cedar Point is the only good thing in Ohio!
SARAH: But yeah. Cities in the United States have flags. Chicago's is pretty well known.
KAYLA: The bear? (pause) Oh, that's California's flag!
SARAH: That's California! Jesus! Chicago's is like...
KAYLA: Fuck California.
SARAH: ...the light blue with the stars — the red stars and white. I'm pretty into flags, to be honest. (laughs) But, you know, that's a thing. Anyway, that's our first poll. Our secondary poll is, "What do you call a fizzy, carbonated beverage? 'Pop,' 'pop,' or 'pop'?" No. "'Pop,' 'soda,'..." I think in the...
KAYLA: I think in the South they call it — especially Florida — they call it Coke, and then you tell them the flavor of Coke? I'm sorry, literally what the fuck? Like, can I have an orange Coke? Uh?
SARAH: That's an orange pop.
KAYLA: First of all, it's an orange pop, and second of all, there is such thing as an orange Coke, so do you want an orange Coke, or a Fanta, bitch?
SARAH: Bitch.
KAYLA: I'm so passionate.
SARAH: Also, I think in the UK — I could be wrong — I think they call it just a "fizzy drink."
KAYLA: That sounds right, but...
SARAH: Yeah, so that'll be our secondary poll.
KAYLA: And there is a correct answer.
SARAH: There is a correct answer, and it's "pop."
KAYLA: And this is ruining many relationships in my life, currently.
SARAH: Anyway, Kayla, what's your beef of the week?
KAYLA: I had one. I was just thinking about it. Do you have one?
SARAH: Uh, yeah, I wrote this down on December 7th, 2018 at 3:56 a.m. It says, "Artichokes. What even are they?"
KAYLA: So squishy.
SARAH: I don't even know that I would recognize an artichoke if I saw it.
KAYLA: Wait, oh, I was thinking... (laughs)
SARAH: Were you thinking of avocados?
KAYLA: (laughs) Proof that truly "What is an artichoke?" is my mind first went to an avocado.
SARAH: I really don't... like if you show me a picture of an artichoke and were like "This is an artichoke."
KAYLA: Can you not picture it in your mind?
SARAH: No, I can't.
KAYLA: I can.
SARAH: Lemme... hold on. I have...
KAYLA: Please look up an artichoke.
SARAH: I have a vague idea. Hold on, let me look this up.
KAYLA: Which is also a shame, because spinach-artichoke dip is the best food in the world.
SARAH: We had that at dinner last night.
KAYLA: Ooh, I have a beef.
SARAH: A beef. A single beef. (to computer) Why do you just keep opening new tabs? That's not what I asked for.
KAYLA: Yee. Can I tell a story while you're doing this? We got an email recently that I have yet to reply to.
SARAH: Oh, that is an artichoke.
KAYLA: (laughs) Is there an artichoke emoji?
SARAH: Uh, I doubt it. "Cultivated edible plant." Yeah, just like artichokes, though? Like, what, why, and I've never eaten one, so get 'em out of here.
KAYLA: Yes you have. You've had artichoke dip.
SARAH: No, I've not.
KAYLA: Well, you're missing out.
SARAH: Okay. Well...
KAYLA: Okay, first a story and then my beef. We got a very nice email recently from a woman who works in an agricultural department.
SARAH: Yes!
KAYLA: And so she takes a lot of data in... About Idaho, I think. I didn't want to blow up her spot. But yeah, you're from Idaho.
SARAH: Oh, sorry.
KAYLA: It's okay. She's like 20 episodes behind, last I knew. So she won't hear this for a while. (both laugh) But she inputs a lot of data about cattle, I guess, at her work.
SARAH: Data (pronounced "day-tuh").
KAYLA: Data (pronounced "dah-tuh").
SARAH: Data (pronounced "day-tuh").
KAYLA: Data (pronounced "dah-tuh").
SARAH: Data (pronounced "day-tuh").
BOTH: Anyway. (both laugh)
KAYLA: And so she was saying... it's funny because she's putting in all this... stuff about cattle and then we say, "Take good care of your cows" and she was like, "I will take good care of them!" and it was the sweetest thing.
SARAH: It was beautiful.
KAYLA: My beef. (pauses)
SARAH: She forgot it already. She has pulled a Sarah.
KAYLA: Shit! I just had it.
SARAH: Was it artichokes?
KAYLA: Oh. Recently... I remembered this because I have an Instagram caption a while ago about how our Quidditch team is #2 in my heart because artichoke dip will always be #1, which made me think about how recently my Instagram has been being stalked a lot because... dating. And these people are stalking me. They are talking about my pictures. They are insulting my tattoo, first of all — which is all whatever, I don't give a shit, you can talk whatever you want — except for they're not following me or liking my pictures? And it's like, am I just free entertainment to you?
SARAH: If you know that they're stalking you, they might as well make themselves known—
KAYLA: I know.
SARAH: —on your account.
KAYLA: I just feel like my ratio would be a lot better.
(50:00)
SARAH: Oh, my God.
KAYLA: I probably would have a lot more likes. And, like, what's the point? (laughs)
SARAH: You can find our primary poll, our secondary, or tell us about your beef of the week, or insult artichokes—
KAYLA: Don't do that!
SARAH: —on our Twitter @soundsfakepod. You can also find us on tumbler, soundsfakepod.tumblr.com, or you can email us at soundsfakepod@gmail.com. Once again, I forgot to pull up the outro doc. We also have a Patreon account...
KAYLA: So many documents, you guys, you should see our Google Drive. It's... Sarah made a new doc for winter 2019. I saw that—
SARAH: I did.
KAYLA: Some organized businesswomen.
SARAH: We also have a Patreon, patreon.com/soundsfakepod. If you want to give us your money we would be so grateful!
KAYLA: We would. Because money currently is the only thing that will get us on Spotify.
SARAH: True!
KAYLA: And we don't have it.
SARAH: We don't have it.
KAYLA: So, please.
SARAH: We're poor. We love it. Our $2 patrons are Sara Jones and Keith McBlaine in the membrane. Our $5 patrons are Jennifer Smart, Asritha Vinnakota, Austin Le, Drew Finney, and Perry Ferry? Perry Fiero. Thank you for listening.
KAYLA: Perald Ferald (both laugh)
SARAH: Thank you for listening. Tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: Until then, take good care of your cows.
BOTH: Especially the ones in Idaho. (both laugh)