Ep 226: Allonormativity and Amatanormativity
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SARAH: Hey what's up hello, welcome to Sounds Fake but Okay, a podcast where an aroace girl, I'm Sarah that's me
KAYLA: And a bi demi girl, that's me Kayla.
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.
KAYLA: On today's episode: amatonormativity and allonormativity
SARAH AND KAYLA: Sounds fake, but okay
(theme music plays)
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod!
KAYLA: It feels like forever.
SARAH: Yeah, but not for them.
KAYLA: For you it has not been, but for us, several.
SARAH: Several. Yeah. Kayla, we have a thing to housekeep, keep our house.
KAYLA: We have a big house to keep.
SARAH: It's like a fucking mansion, bro.
KAYLA: Yes, we have a mansion. We have an estate to keep.
SARAH: An estate? Jesus.
KAYLA: Yeah I mean, none of this housekeeping is set in stone or very helpful.
SARAH: (laughing) Or very specific.
KAYLA: Or very specific! Pretty vague stuff, but we're going to have a big announcement for the book coming sometime next week, we're not 100% sure when, but we're going to do a live stream to celebrate and announce it
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: But we don't know what day.
SARAH: Mm mm.
KAYLA: So just keep an eye out, I guess on our socials this coming week.
SARAH: Yep.
KAYLA: (laughing) For an announcement of when we will be making an announcement.
SARAH: Besties, we wish we knew too.
KAYLA: We do, but it'll be sometime this week and it'll basically be sharing every major piece of news about the book that there is.
SARAH: At one time.
KAYLA: At one time. Like anything you want to know about the book except for reading the book aloud is in this announcement, so.
SARAH: I mean, we could read the book aloud in this announcement.
KAYLA: I guess we could, but I think we'd get in trouble.
SARAH: I think we would too.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: But we have the ability. We have the capability.
KAYLA: We could. Yeah. So stay tuned for that very exciting stuff!
SARAH: Alright. Well, Kayla, in the meantime, what are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: This week, I had realized that throughout our episodes we have talked about the topics and the struggle of both amatonormativity and allonormativity, but we haven't dedicated an episode to those things, so I thought we should talk about it.
SARAH: So here we are.
KAYLA: Here we are. I don't think this is going to be like, as you know, unless this is the first episode you're listening to, I don't think we think of ourselves as an educational podcast. I think it's more of like 2 aspecs talking about things for other aspecs to listen to.
SARAH: If you get educated, that's a bonus.
KAYLA: yeah.
SARAH: That's a bonus of the podcast, not one of the baked-in promises.
KAYLA: Yes. So we'll obviously be doing definitions at the top, but I thought it would be more of a conversation about how these things have affected our lives personally, and how we've dealt with that, and things of that nature. A conversation, you know?
SARAH: Yee haw.
KAYLA: Yee haw.
SARAH: Alright. So Kayla, let's start by telling the people what the hell we're talking about. So we've got amatonormativity and we've got allonormativity.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Where shall we start?
KAYLA: I'm going to start with allonormativity.
SARAH: Makes sense.
KAYLA: I think that, from the name more you can tell what it is?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: So basically allonormativity is the cultural belief that everyone has and should have sexual and romantic attraction. So, you know, it plays off the word alloromantic or allosexual and yeah. It's basically just your –
SARAH: Are you reading this out of the dictionary in our book?
KAYLA: Am I? No. Should I?
SARAH: It would be funny if you were.
KAYLA: Shit. I'm going to have to go find our book.
SARAH: Well that's a fun little tidbit I just told everyone. There is a dictionary in our book.
KAYLA: (laughing) There is a dictionary! Okay, fine. I'll go find it in our dictionary.
SARAH: (laughing) You don't have to
KAYLA: Well, now I'm going to.
SARAH: I was just like "that sounds familiar"
KAYLA: Yeah. Okay. The way we wrote it in the book is "the belief that all people"–
SARAH: Sneak preview.
KAYLA: "are and should be both allosexual and alloromantic". There you go. Listen, I just read you a sentence from the book, so.
SARAH: So true, bestie.
KAYLA: So yeah, that's it. Basically the assumption that everyone is and should be allo. Amatonormativity was coined, I don't know who coined allonormativity.
SARAH: Do – yeah, I don't know.
(05:00)
KAYLA: But amatonormativity was coined by someone named Elizabeth Brake, who I believe is a professor?
SARAH: Dr. Elizabeth Brake
KAYLA: Yeah, and does a lot of work on relationships and stuff.
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: Let's read it from the book again. The definition from our book, which is basically just what Elizabeth's definition is, is the "belief that all people are better off in an exclusive, monogamous romantic and sexual relationship, and that everyone is seeking such a relationship". So I think allonormativity is kind of baked into amatonormativity.
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: Basically the assumption that not only should all people be allo but also they should be seeking your standard, stereotypical romantic/sexual relationship.
SARAH: Right. So allonormativity is this idea that everyone should and does feel these certain types of attractions. Amatonormativity is the idea that because everyone feels these sorts of attractions, everyone should act on them and pursue them in a way that is "socially acceptable" or socially advisable, or socially expected.
KAYLA: Yeah, so if you look up amatonormativity Elizabeth Brake, you'll find her website. She has a page on it. And she gives examples of patrons like "oh she hasn't found the one yet" or "aren't you lonely because you're not married or partnered?" Things of that nature.
SARAH: Indeed.
KAYLA: So yeah obviously all people are affected by these things. I think aspec people in particular because – I don't know that we're more likely to not? I mean, we're more likely to not feel those attractions in a normative way.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: I suppose I don't know that we're more likely to not be in your standard relationship, but it is assumed that aspec people are not interested in those things.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: So I think those things are just faced more.
SARAH: Yeah, and that's not to say aspecs can't have both of these normativities ingrained in their own mind because it's impossible to avoid that.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: It's an unlearning for yourself. It's hard to unlearn for yourself, but it's even harder to unlearn for society, so.
KAYLA: Well yeah I feel like one of the hardest things about realizing you're aspec is mourning the loss of what you expected your life to be.
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: I think a lot of us, when we are growing up, parents or other people around us make comments about "oh well, when you get married, when you have kids, when you fall in love for this first time"
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: You know, those are just givens that are talked about.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: In a very light way most of the time, where it's just... you know
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Seen as completely normal, this is bound to happen at some point in your life, so you grow up like Sarah as she was growing up fully expected to get married to a man, have a whole wedding, have kids, whatever.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: So realizing that you're not potentially going down that path can be a very hard thing to grasp on to.
SARAH: Right, and it's not just you who's coming to terms with that, it's everyone around you
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Because everyone around you expects you to do it too, and obviously it's going to be harder for you and your experience is way more important than anyone else's experience
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Of your identity, but you know, that is also a thing. People's parents may struggle with the fact that their kid's not going to get married or maybe their kid doesn't want to have kids, which both of those things are things that allo people could do, but because it's more expected out of aspecs it's more of a question.
KAYLA: Yeah, for sure. Part of the reason I thought about talking about this this week is because Dean and I have been getting more questions recently about marriage.
SARAH: (in a mocking tone) Are you getting married?
KAYLA: And it's always jarring to me when I get that because most of my friends are either queer or just, I feel like people our age don't ask things like that anymore because
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Because the age people get married and have kids is just getting older and older
SARAH: It's so much older than it used to be.
KAYLA: But also I'm very lucky in that my parents do not ask me things like that.
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: I don't know if – my theory is because they listen to this. I guess when they listen to this episode they can tell me
(10:00)
SARAH: (laughs)
KAYLA: My theory is that they listen to the podcast and they've heard me complaining about people saying things like that before.
SARAH: Yeah. Or maybe they just don't want to put pressure on you in general.
KAYLA: (laughing) Or maybe they're just like, good people. But.
SARAH: (laughing) Or maybe my parents are just good people
KAYLA: Yep, or.
SARAH: Sandy, that was for you.
KAYLA: That was for you. Love Sandy.
SARAH: Sandy, just please know that it was me, there, that suggested to your daughter that you might be good people.
KAYLA: Okay, whatever. Anyway, when my sister got married a couple of months ago I was fully expecting a ton of "so when are you getting married" questions because that always happens at a wedding, you know? Whatever.
SARAH: Mhm. Thematic.
KAYLA: I didn't even get that. My aunt even made a comment at one point of like "nah, you don't ever need to get married". My dad recently made a comment about how if he never has grandkids then it's like, whatever, and I was like "oh shit, okay"
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: So like, I'm very lucky, but it does make it so much more jarring when I do here that.
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: Because I feel like I'm in such an aspec bubble.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Yeah. I just forget how much allonormativity and amatonormativity are everywhere because I feel like I've done a decent job of getting it out of my life as much as I possibly can.
SARAH: Yeah, and I feel like you and me both have very different experiences of that in that, for me, I'm always asked "are you dating?" and I'm like "no" and then they're like "oh, well are you just taking a break from it?" and I'm like "no, I'm not, and I won't be"
KAYLA: Yeah, it never crosses someone's mind that that's a permanent decision that you're making.
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: And not based in any sort of trauma or anything
SARAH: Right but then for you, you have a completely different experience where you are in a committed relationship, so people expect you to take certain next steps and you're like
KAYLA: Right.
SARAH: "woah, hold on"
KAYLA: Well, yeah, and I think that's why, you know, these normativities are not exclusive to aspec people. There are plenty of allo people I know that don't really believe in marriage, or don't really want to have kids, and those are still pressures that they are facing
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: You are in a relationship that looks a certain way so you are expected to take what is seen as the next step to make that relationship more valid in a certain way.
SARAH: And in some sense, they have "less of an excuse" than we do, you know?
KAYLA: Yeah, that is true. Like you said, it's kind of expected of us to not make those steps.
SARAH: Right. I don't believe that they have more or less of an excuse, but that's how it's going to be perceived.
KAYLA: Right. I can understand that logic, yeah.
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: Sometimes I even get questions about you like "so is Sarah still deciding not to date?" and I'm like, what are we doing. What is that?
SARAH: I decided. It has been decided. If I change my mind later, that's a later problem.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Not a consistent thing that's happening. I recently, my aunt said that one of my other aunts was confused because, something about Sarah and a relationship was being discussed and my one aunt was confused and was like "oh is Sarah dating" and my other aunt was like "I don't think that's the Sarah we're talking about". They were in fact talking about my sister's best friend Sarah.
KAYLA: Mm, yeah.
SARAH: But my one aunt was confused, my other aunt was like "I don't think that's our Sarah"
KAYLA: So right.
SARAH: That doesn't seem correct.
KAYLA: That doesn't seem like something she would do. But yeah, it's like the assumption that it's a phase or something, but as you said, things are fluid. Maybe you would want to date some day, I don't know, but the assumption that that is going to change, rather than it just being a possibility is annoying. What is your experience of allo and amatonormativity in the workplace?
SARAH: (laughing) It's been actually very weird at my current job because the podcast and the book – actually my boss told me this the other day – the podcast and the book was one of the main reasons they hired me.
KAYLA: (laughing) You're welcome.
SARAH: Because they were like "oh there's this thing she does" and it made me look good to them.
KAYLA: Yeah. Extracurriculars.
SARAH: Right. And it was something that they asked me about in my interview, and I told them about, so they know. They're not well-informed, but they know.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: So every time my one boss is like "it needs a love triangle" me and my other co-worker are like "I would rather die". But it's been interesting at this job just because...
(15:00)
SARAH: Everyone has kind of known all along.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: At my previous job, people found out eventually. I think, I didn't get it from any of my bosses because by the time I knew them well enough for them to say something like that and for it to not be weird, I think they already knew about my podcast.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: This podcast, the one you're listening to right now.
KAYLA: Yeah, this one.
SARAH: And then for my coworkers, like my fellow assistants, I was more comfortable with. I remember for one of them, I remember telling him that I was aroace and then we had an entertaining conversation.
KAYLA: How uncomfortable?
SARAH: It was actually okay. We had an entertaining conversation because he was like "I'm bisexual and I like sex too much, so we are opposites" and I was like what a mood. But then pretty much all the people I was peers with at work found out or knew, and so it wasn't a big deal. Again, they weren't always informed and they would ask questions sometimes, but they were never rude, mean questions.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Or sometimes they would be like "I don't know if I'm allowed to ask this question" and I'll be like "just go for it"
KAYLA: That's funny.
SARAH: So that's been my work experience, everyone has always known.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: So they may not understand it, but they know to at least be more cautious around it at least.
KAYLA: Yeah, I had – I mean for me it's obviously different because I am in a relationship so
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: I pass as allo
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: But it was the same thing for me, the podcast and stuff is on my resume, my boss listened to an episode before I was hired
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: But I feel like in professional spaces is such an interesting place for allo and amatonormativity
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: And it's honestly the place I worry about people the most. Not myself, because I'm fine. And you're fine.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: But things surrounding a plus one to like a Christmas party
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Or general kind of like, I guess this was more of a thing when everyone was in person but just like "what did you do this weekend"
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: Just the casual kind of small talk that people do that I think often defaults to relationships because it is a thing that a lot of people do have in common.
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: Or just the assumption that everyone of a certain age in the workplace has a wife or husband and either has kids or is planning to have kids
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: Because you're in a certain place
SARAH: Right, and if you don't have at least a committed relationship, you're seen as a baby. Like "when did you graduate from college? You're little"
KAYLA: I think people equate having a monogamous, committed relationship with a level of maturity.
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: Once you have been with a person –
SARAH: You've stopped messing around.
KAYLA: Yeah, like you've moved in with someone, you have like a dog together, that's seen as a much more adult behavior
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Than being single or just dating casually. And in the workplace, especially in more corporate settings, being an adult is such a thing that people are looking for kind of, or at least in the culture of the workplace that people pay attention to.
SARAH: I was actually on a company call the other day, and one of the people there knew everybody else at the company but not me, and so there was sort of like a "Sarah introduced herself" sort of thing
KAYLA: Awful.
SARAH: And my boss was like "she's writing a book and she has a podcast!" and I was like oh you're right, I do.
KAYLA: People do that to me all the time, and I'm like stop mom you're embarrassing me!
SARAH: My boss is always like "you need to use that"
KAYLA: Does your boss want to be our publicist since he insists on us having a publicist with the money we don't have? Like, does he want to do it?
SARAH: (laughing) I'll ask him
KAYLA: I wish you would.
SARAH: We were talking about – it was a YA project, a young adult project and so my boss mentioned something about how I, of the people in the meeting was the closest age to the target audience
KAYLA: Baby.
SARAH: Yeah, and then they were like "wait when did you graduate from college" and I was like "2019, I'm an infant" and they were like "oh baby"
KAYLA: Me being young is actually quite the commodity on my team
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Because the audience we work with it high school and college kids.
SARAH: Right, that's fair
KAYLA: I'm the personality hire.
SARAH: (laughing) Incredible. I thought of this a couple minutes ago. So my previous job, we didn't get plus ones to company parties, that just wan't the culture, but I was just thinking, if we did, there's me, and then one of my coworkers was for a bulk of the time we worked together was in a polyamorous relationship with 2 different people, so I was like "I could just give them my plus one"
KAYLA: Mm, true.
SARAH: Like a gifting situation. You know those horrible things that only happen in the United States when people get really, really sick and their coworkers like, gift their sick days to them?
KAYLA: I have never heard that, but that –
SARAH: Oh, it happens
KAYLA: truly is the most American thing I've ever heard of
SARAH: It's like that but I'm gifting you a plus one
KAYLA: I love that. You know the thing where you're in the hospital and only a romantic partner, or whatever
SARAH: Immediate family, whatever that means.
KAYLA: Is allowed to see you? Immediate family but that often extends to a romantic partner even if you're not married.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: It's so stupid because what if I'm single but I have a best friend... are they going to see a QPR as valid, or things like that?
SARAH: No.
KAYLA: Or like, Dean's company does a thing every year does this huge trip where they take all several thousand employees and they go on a thing, and they let you bring a plus one. And it depends on where you work and who your boss is what flexibility there is, but there are rules on how many months, and how serious that partner is, like can you bring a family member, can you bring a friend.
SARAH: Jeez.
KAYLA: In certain very expensive cities his company gives rent help
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: And you have to be dating someone for a certain amount of months and living together for a certain amount of time to be eligible for your partner to also be eligible for rent help or for it to cover both your rents
SARAH: Hm.
KAYLA: And it's kind of like, could you game the system for that if you're just living with a friend?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: The fact that that privilege extends to romantic partners but not beyond that
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Because the assumption is that living with a friend is a temporary status and living with a partner is what the goal is for everyone, you know what I mean?
SARAH: And in a hospital situation, you could always be like "I'm married to them"
KAYLA: Right.
SARAH: What are they going to do, ask you for your marriage certificate?
KAYLA: Right.
SARAH: But it's still just the principle of the thing.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And the fact that there are certain privileges extended to more long-term partners that aren't extended to other people that don't fall under the category of romantic/sexual long-term partner
KAYLA: It's just the facts that the government wants people to get married
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: My sister just got married and she was telling me that the first paycheck she got after they were legally married she was like "yeah, just because we were married, they took less money out of my taxes"
SARAH: For real?
KAYLA: Yeah, that's why people always say "just get married for financial reasons" because they literally chop your taxes just because you're married
SARAH: I hate that.
KAYLA: And she was like "I don't know if we're going to have to pay back more when we actually do our taxes"
SARAH: Jeez.
KAYLA: Or like I knew a couple that got married in college and they were like "yeah, it made our college free basically because we were married"
SARAH: The fuck? Bro.
KAYLA: Yep.
SARAH: They got fucking Spotify Duo
KAYLA: That's what I'm saying
SARAH: They got fucking tax breaks.
KAYLA: You know what's funny about Spotify Duo? I think Dean and I have it
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: But I think you have to be in the same physical location when you turn it on
SARAH: Mm.
KAYLA: They really tried, which is silly because it could be like anyone, but they really tried.
SARAH: What if you have like a long-distance relationship?
KAYLA: So true.
SARAH: So true, bestie.
KAYLA: I found a Reddit thread asking for people's experiences with – it's on the asexuality Reddit – if you want to find this post it's called "allonormativity and amatonormativity examples and experiences"
(25:00)
KAYLA: and people are just commenting their own things, but one thing I hadn't thought about is people being mistaken for flirting
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: Just because they're being nice
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: And I do feel like that falls under allonormativity
SARAH: It does
KAYLA: Because you just assume that's the goal everyone is after
SARAH: Yeah you assume that there's an ulterior motive.
KAYLA: Yeah, especially when it's an opposite sex thing
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: Because then there's heteronormativity going into it
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: yeah.
SARAH: Yeah, I had never thought about it that way, but it totally is.
KAYLA: You know what else is?
SARAH: Wild? You know what else is wild, is that what you meant?
KAYLA: You know what else is? is when
SARAH: (laughing) What?
KAYLA: Is when people are like "you only like that boy band because you think they're cute"
SARAH: Oh my god
KAYLA: I hate that
SARAH: I have so many thoughts on this
KAYLA: I know you do. That could be a whole episode, to be honest.
SARAH: I feel like we have sort of done that
KAYLA: I mean yeah I'm sure
SARAH: If you only like that group because they're attractive explain why there are so many queer women that are fans of BTS.
KAYLA: So true.
SARAH: Explain.
KAYLA: America explain
SARAH: Lesbians heart Jin
KAYLA: So true. Or you know, when people at work are like "it needs a love triangle"
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: Just the insistence of putting a romantic or sexual plot in everything, because I guess the assumption must be that it's relatable to everyone, like everyone must experience this, so it's good media?
SARAH: Right like everyone wants it, it's good conflict, it's conflict that people understand the contours of
KAYLA: Yeah, it's like this is going to be super relatable, everyone has experienced this in some way and it's like, maybe not, though.
SARAH: Yeah. And it's like so many stories that are about fantastical things and fucking time travel and whatever they really are grounded in relationships, but people are like "oh well it has to be certain types of relationship"
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And it's like, no. Dr. Who is a good example. People are literally relating to these people who are travel through in a telephone booth that is bigger on the inside. And you're telling me that it's unbelievable for some of them to maybe not have romantic subplots?
KAYLA: Yeah honestly I feel like Dr. Who is a really, really interesting example
SARAH: It's super platonic
KAYLA: Yeah, and because there are so many different side characters that come in and out
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: And some of them are very romantic, and others are very platonic, and others are very family based
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: It is – I hadn't thought about that. It is kind of a masterclass
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: In you don't have to do it this way to make for really, really impactful relationships between characters or subplots
SARAH: Yeah, you have those who have romantic subplots with the Doctor, you have those who have romantic subplots with those who are not the Doctor, you have characters who have a very clearly delineated strong platonic relationship with the Doctor, you have the companions – (coughs) Jack Harkness – who flirt with everyone and that's just their thing, and I think it's a pretty good example of you can tell stories that are super relatable even though the stories themselves are like fucking moisturize me person. That's not a person. Whatever the moisturize me...
KAYLA: Thing?
SARAH: thing is. If you don't know what I'm talking about, just google "moisturize me Dr. Who" and you'll see it
KAYLA: Horrifying stuff.
SARAH: And it's so relatable it's gone on for decades and decades and decades even though everything about it seems so out there and extreme, and there are not always love stories in it. Like, it's not a consistent thing.
KAYLA: So true.
SARAH: Love stories being romantic love stories. The fact that I said love stories to mean romantic love stories was very allonormative of me. Amatonormative. One of them, both of them.
KAYLA: Terrible. Straight to allo jail.
SARAH: Rip. Not in jail with the allos.
KAYLA: It's your punishment
SARAH: Please, put me in aspec jail
KAYLA: That's your punishment
SARAH: I want to be in the aspec jail!
KAYLA: No.
SARAH: Here's another thing. Kids' programming.
(30:00)
SARAH: If we're going to talk about media and allonormativity and amatonormativity in kids' programming. When you're really little, there is no romance
KAYLA: True.
SARAH: And guess what. The stories are still super chill and fun. Do they have a different purpose for little kids? Yes. But as you get older, the age at which romance is introduced is so young. And sex isn't going to be introduced until they're older.
KAYLA: True. Until like 10 years after they've started having sex.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: That is interesting though because I feel like with a lot of kids' programming there's a huge focus on friendship.
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: Like teaching kids how to be friends, how to share, stuff like that.
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: Like you look at Sesame Street, there's so many plot lines
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Of like here's how you deal with conflict with your friends. But then at a certain age they just assume like "okay everyone has this friendship thing down, they're all really good at being friends"
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: And obviously being an adult adds a lot of complexity to friendships, and people aren't always great at them
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: But then they just make the hard switch to relationships
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: And obviously adult media isn't blatant in the way it teaches people things
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: It's not doing the ABC's, it's more implicit stuff.
SARAH: Mhm. Yeah. I will say though that Sesame Street does a really great job of having just the world's – perhaps not first, but the world's greatest gay relationship in Bert and Ernie
KAYLA: That's very true. I saw a screenshot recently of the Bert's and Ernie's Twitters, they were like tweeting each other, and someone was like "my gay uncles are doing such a bad job at staying in the closet". They are so gay.
SARAH: So gay. And you know what? I would also accept QPR.
KAYLA: So true.
SARAH: Absolutely.
KAYLA: Speak of children, and I know I mentioned this before, but just the early age at which children are romanticized and sexualized. Like the little shirts that are like "heartbreaker"
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: Or "oh my god he's such a flirt" or asking kids who their girlfriend or boyfriend are in their class or whatever
SARAH: They're five!
KAYLA: It's so disgusting the more you think about it
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: And it's like what kind of precedent are you setting?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Like, you ask a kid who's your boyfriend or girlfriend, then they're going to start thinking they have to have one.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: When they're 5.
SARAH: There are so many young aspecs who make up a crush because they think they're supposed to have one.
KAYLA: Yeah. And again it goes back to the allonormativity of even if your kid is 5 and doesn't have a crush yet because they're 5
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: You just assume at some point in their life that is going to happen so it's okay to make silly jokes about or whatever. Yeah.
SARAH: Foolish.
KAYLA: So weird.
SARAH: So that's allo and amatonormativity. We obviously hit everything about them that one could ever talk about.
KAYLA: Absolutely. I will say just googling amatonormativity, I don't know what I was expecting, but I feel like publications like Cosmopolitan randomly, for some reason, has gotten pretty good at sexuality based stuff recently.
SARAH: Hm.
KAYLA: Not a lot from anyone, to be honest.
SARAH: I wouldn't expect there to be.
KAYLA: A lot of think pieces that could be done there.
SARAH: Yeah, absolutely. But so few people know they exist.
KAYLA: I guess we'll just have to do it.
SARAH: You do it I'm busy
KAYLA: (laughing) Okay.
SARAH: Alright, cool. Kayla, what is our poll for this week?
KAYLA: Oh god.
SARAH: Are you like me and can never remember if it's amat-uh-normativity or amat-oh-normativity?
KAYLA: It's uh.
SARAH: It's uh? Good to know. I'll for get that.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: Kind of like I forget every time if I'm Leo rising or Leo moon. I have to check every single fucking time. It's been years. I can't. My brain can't.
KAYLA: And it's such important information too.
SARAH: Exactly.
KAYLA: I don't know. I guess we could ask what's the worst...
SARAH: Mm.
KAYLA: Allo or amatonormativity that's happened to you?
SARAH: I'd also like to hear about like allo, amatonormative microaggressions?
KAYLA: Interesting.
SARAH: Where it's like, you know
(35:00)
SARAH: It's not people being like "so when are you getting a boyfriend?" but it's more like after the fact you're like "that made me feel bad"
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: I'd be curious to see what people have to say about that.
KAYLA: (in a vaguely British accent) Alright, I've written it down for myself.
SARAH: Delightful. Kayla, what is your beef and your juice this week?
KAYLA: Mm. My beef is I think that when I had covid like a month ago or whenever I had it, which also several of the bonus episodes we recorded for the book were I had covid for, so it's really a full spectrum of what my voice sounds like in those episodes
SARAH: Yeah you get some fun covided Kayla.
KAYLA: Yeah, it's really cool. So I guess that's a beef, but also ever since I had covid my sinuses have been worse. I had a really bad cold last week, and my sinuses were so bad I had teeth aches, and at one point I almost passed out because of how bad the pain in my face was. So that was really cool, I think. It actually may be my juice because of how cool it was.
SARAH: Hm. Good. Well my –
KAYLA: No!
SARAH: I'm sorry I haven't been paying attention for reasons I will explain in just a moment. Continue.
KAYLA: My actual juice is that, this weekend, I guess if you're listening to this the day it comes out I'm currently doing it, is we're doing an in-person 2 day D&D campaign with some of our friends. And I'm just excited because I haven't done an in person campaign in a while and there's just something about sitting in person and eating shitty food and like drinking pop and stuff.
SARAH: Exciting. I love that for you. Part of my beef and the reason I wasn't paying attention to you was because I forgot to update the patrons before this podcast.
KAYLA: Mm, that is a beef.
SARAH: That's why I wasn't paying attention.
KAYLA: Can't believe people would give us their money
SARAH: I know
KAYLA: And make your life harder for 5 minutes.
SARAH: I know! My other beef is I've said it before, I'll say it again, I don't like that we as humans get hungry in the middle of the day. I think lunch is bad. My juice is that I received two items in the mail today and they were both Army mail.
KAYLA: Oh boy.
SARAH: One of them I knew was coming eventually but I didn't know was coming now, and the other one was a surprise, so I got some delightful mail today. You can tell us about your beef, your juice, your amatonormative microaggressions on our social media @soundsfakepod, specifically on Instagram. They're all saved, but we're on all socials @soundsfakepod. If you'd like to support us on Patreon, and have me possibly forget to update the list before the podcast but I will remember eventually, that's patreon.com/soundsfakepod. We have a new $2 patron it is Sophie S. Everyone say (singing) thanks Sophie S!
KAYLA: Thanks
SARAH: You didn't do it right.
KAYLA: Thanks
SARAH: You still didn't do it right
KAYLA: Thank you
SARAH: (laughing) No, you have to say thanks Sophie S!
KAYLA: Thanks
SARAH: (laughing) Kayla's disrespecting Sophie S.
KAYLA: Thank you
SARAH: My god. Our $5 patrons who we are promoting this week are Doug Rice, Edward Hayes-Holgate, Elizabeth Wheeler, Ellie, and Emily M. Our $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are Martin Chiesl who'd like to promote his podcast If Everyone's Special No One is, Mattie who would like to promote gender euphoria, Potater who would like to promote potatoes – wait did potato change their? No, I don't know where I got that from I think Potater's still promoting potatoes, Purple Hayes who would like to promote their friends' podcast, the Host Club, and Rosie Costello who'd like to promote big water bowls, the biggest.
KAYLA: Big.
SARAH: Our other $10 patrons are Barefoot Backpacker, The Steve, Zirklteo, Arcnee, Ari K, Benjamin Ybarra, Changeling and Alex the ace cat, David Jay, David Nurse, Derek and Carissa, CinnamonToastPunch, my Aunt Jeannie, Maggie Capalbo and that's it. Our $15 patrons are Andrew Hillum who'd like to promote The Invisible Spectrum Podcast, Click4Caroline who'd like to promote Ace of Hearts, Dia Chappell who'd like to promote Twitch.tv/MelodyDia. I would like to note that I was correct last week that it was Derek and Carissa. Oh you weren't there.
KAYLA: I had assumed so
SARAH: Oh yeah you weren't there when I recorded it but I suppose you probably saw the messages. I was correct. My brain is so big. Hector Murillo who would like to support friends that are– no, well yeah – who would like to support friends that are supportive, constructive, and help you grow as a better person, Keziah – I just fucked it up the first time – Keziah Root who would like to promote – did you ever tell me what your new promotion is? No. Keziah. Keziah, bestie, please. For Keziah I'd like to promote more potatoes. Nathaniel White who would like to promote NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com, Kayla's Aunt Nina who would like to promote @katemaggart.art, and Sara Jones who is @eternalloli everywhere. Our $20 patrons are Sabrina Hauck who would like to promote the concept of Christmas from your parents and Dragonfly who would like to promote eating dinner, because I am hungry. Thanks for listening. Tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: Bye!
SARAH: (laughing) What is wrong with you?!
KAYLA: (laughing) And until then, take good care of your cows.
SARAH: My god.
(40:56)