Ep 231: Ace Voices feat. Eris Young
(00:00)
SARAH: Hey what's up hello, welcome to Sounds Fake but Okay, a podcast where an aroace girl, I'm Sarah that's me
KAYLA: And a bi demisexual girl, that's me Kayla
ERIS: And a queer trans non-bin aspec person that's me
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand
KAYLA: On today's episode: Ace Voices
SARAH AND KAYLA: Sounds fake but okay
(theme music plays)
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod!
KAYLA: Hello
SARAH: Hi people of the Internet. Hope you're all doing well. We have a special guest today.
KAYLA: We do. We're welcome Eris to the virtual studio today
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: Our first guest in so long. Hello Eris!
ERIS: Hello! I'm thrilled to be here
SARAH: Hell yeah. We are talking to Eris because as we mentioned a couple weeks ago it is the season of aspec books and we are here to talk about another that we are very excited about. So Eris, do you want to do a quick introduction to yourself and your book?
ERIS: Yeah sure. So I am – what am I? I don't know I sounded really uncertain of myself during the intro
SARAH: It's you know, it's part of the process
KAYLA: Aren't we all?
ERIS: Yeah. I mean, I'm aspec, I guess I call myself asexual and demiromantic or greyromantic but like part of that is – which I'm sure we'll talk about later is just I don't know. So I'm a writer. I write nonfiction and fiction. All of it is extremely gay.
SARAH: (whispering) Yes.
ERIS: My first book is called They/Them/Their. It's called a guide to non-binary and genderqueer identities, but it's a little bit more nuanced than that. I mean, I tried to make it more nuanced than that, and the same is true for this book. So Ace Voices, I'm kind of billing it as a love letter to the asexual, aromantic, demi/grey community. I really wanted to use the book to talk about, you know kind of what our lives are actually like and just talk to as many people as I could who had experience, who were part of the community. Just to kind of get away from my own experience, because I actually really don't like writing about myself. This is really – I'm rambling a lot.
SARAH: That's what podcasts are for
KAYLA: Yeah, you're doing it!
ERIS: Mom, I'm podcasting! So that's kind of what the book is about and I guess I'll talk more about it. I actually had to spend a good couple hours this afternoon reminding myself what the book was about.
KAYLA: (laughing) Yeah
ERIS: Because it's been a solid 6 months since I've looked at it so I hope I've like billed it correctly
KAYLA: That's what I recall the book being about, so
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I think you did it right.
SARAH: Yeah, you got it. Every time we have to think about what our book is about I end up reading it and I go "oh this is pretty good"
(laughter)
ERIS: I know, right?
KAYLA: The other day Sarah was supposed to be reading someone else – Sherronda's book
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And then she started reading our book instead because she got distracted
SARAH: It made me think of something
KAYLA: And then she said "Kayla, our book is really good" and I was like okay but read the other one maybe
SARAH: It made me think of something we talked about in our book and I was like I'm going to go see what we said and then I just kept going.
KAYLA: (laughing) What you going to do? Love that confidence from you.
ERIS: Yeah
SARAH: Yeah I mean, we have both read the book. It's wonderful. It's great. I think it's something that we have done, you have done, Sherronda has done as well, is we really talked to a lot of different aspec people, and I think that's a thing all of us wanted to, you know, emphasize, bring in more voices because there are so few. So what was your thought process? Because you used these quotes so liberally, so how a) what was your thought process in wanting to bring all these people in and then b) how did you go about putting everything together, I guess.
ERIS: Well I guess b it was extremely haphazard. I kind of used these, sort of like a questionnaire, and it was a way for me to be juggling multiple projects at once and still talking to a lot of people. I used that model for my first book and it worked pretty well because I could send it away and people could have time to sit and think about what I was asking them to talk about
(05:00)
ERIS: and then could get back to me in their own time, and I could use that in my own time while doing other stuff, so it was sort of like a questionnaire format and that allowed me to talk to so many more people than I could have otherwise. And you know for this community, for this project, as you said Sarah, it is important to bring in as many voices as possible because there are so few visible aspec voices. So what I wanted to do with the book is to bring together, I think I say in the intro, a volume of aspectrum sort of lived experiences, and I had to make a decision very early on to really think hard about what my priorities were with the book, and I really wanted to just use those real people's words about themselves and their own lives as a touchstone, so any time I felt like I was getting in the weeds or anytime I felt like I was getting too theoretical I would be able to go back and ground what I was writing in the lived experience of a real person because I think, you know, I'm not an academic. Not to trash talk academics, but I'm very much not trained in theory or anything like that. I have no clue. And I guess personally, a personal priority for me is for my work to interact with real, lived experiences and how people live their lives on the ground. I'm not really interested in talking about sexuality, like what it is and stuff. I'm more interested in what are our lives actually like, and I feel like that's more useful to the average aspec who maybe hasn't seen something like what they have lived written on the page or in media before.
SARAH: Yeah and that reminds me, so as I was reading through it I was just highlighting quotes sometimes that spoke to me, and one was one of your respondents saying to them the word asexual means not being attracted to anyone but in a more explanatory way than in an identity way
ERIS: Mhm
SARAH: Which I thought was a very interesting, very apt way to describe it. And I think you do a good job in this book of diving into there's this big community
ERIS: Mhm
SARAH: There's a lot of words, and a lot of different descriptions of things, but ultimately, you know, we're not always on the exact same page about what everything means, but it's really about the community and being able to just explain yourself.
ERIS: Yeah. I think there is this common kind of knowledge within marginalized communities where if you're in the same room with a lot of people who share lived experience with you, you're able to go much deeper than if it was a group of some non-marginalized people or mixed group. And I think the power of our words is we find ways to give voice to lived experiences that have just been totally invisible up until now. And I think that's really important. And even if people, because yeah there is a lot of chat in the book about what is identity, and what is just a descriptor, and what are descriptive words useful for, and what are identity terms useful for. And for me, I don't use very many identity terms at all. I think the ones I identify with are queer and trans, and it manages to encompass literally everything and I'm not really interested in identifying myself with any other kind of words. But there's so many descriptive terms that have allowed me to think more deeply about what my own experience is and how I see the world and how I move through the world. I don't know if that answers your question.
SARAH: No, it does.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: I think that's also a lot of the criticism from people outside the community, that like "you have all these terms, you all want to be special"
ERIS: "I don't understand what these words mean" and it's like they're not for you! Sorry.
SARAH: Yeah and they're not necessarily meant to force people into boxes. It's just meant to describe our experience
KAYLA: It's to relate to each other
SARAH: and help us relate to each other
KAYLA: It's like a resource or tool, you can take it or leave it
SARAH: Exactly
KAYLA: My favorite chapter in the book, I think it was called When Words Aren't Enough. (clears throat) Sorry. And it's kind of the chapter where you're talking about language and the nuances. That's always been the thing that interested me the most about our community is how we just keep introducing these new words, even smaller words for more niche experiences, which I just think is so interesting.
(10:00)
KAYLA: So I loved seeing your perspective on that. I just thought it was, yeah. I feel like as a community we don't always have the awareness of the fact that we do that
ERIS: Mm
KAYLA: And that a lot of other communities don't do that as much, and it makes us really unique.
ERIS: It's like wait is this weird?
KAYLA: Yeah like an I thought everyone did this, I didn't realize this was an us thing, but yeah. So I really enjoyed
ERIS: That's also a very ace thing
KAYLA: Reading about that. Yes.
ERIS: Is like "Oh I thought this was just normal" or "I didn't realize this wasn't normal"
KAYLA: No, literally. Yes. So yeah I really enjoyed that.
ERIS: I'm really glad you enjoyed that chapter. Every time I write book I always have to talk about language. I got my linguistics degrees and I have to use them because I haven't otherwise
(laughter)
KAYLA: Well clearly you have.
ERIS: Well yeah I mean my royalty checks are very, very slowly paying off my linguistics degrees.
KAYLA: (laughing) Love that.
ERIS: I'm really interested in the ways we use language and what having access to language means, and what it can allow a person to do. And you know, words are so ephemeral, and they're intangible, but they have so much power, so I always want to try and talk about that and engage with that. Even a lot of my fiction talks about language, like what it means, and tries to sort of explore language.
SARAH: Along those same lines, I really loved the part where you were talking about untranslatable words from other languages that could apply to aspec ideas and aspec experiences, and I think it really just goes to show even if we are only just now making up these words in English, these are lived experiences that people have had and been having since the beginning of humanity, and it's so easy for people to look at the relative youth of our community and think this is a new thing, but it's really not it's just different people haven't had the same words that we do, and they used different words to describe their experience, but that doesn't mean their experience was any different.
ERIS: Yeah just because it's not "a thing" in English
SARAH: Yeah
ERIS: Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I found it really sort of comforting to look at these ways that other languages sort of talked about romance and sex in a totally different way. It just felt like it made a little bit more space.
SARAH: Shockingly, the world does not revolve around English speakers
KAYLA: Can you believe it?
ERIS: The number of people that seem to be surprised by that
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Speaking of your other books, you were kind of talking about using language in your fiction and nonfiction
ERIS: Mhm
KAYLA: I'm really interested to hear how your experience writing this book was different from your others, and particularly your first book They/Them/Theirs because obviously these are two different facets of your identities so I'm wondering if there was unique challenges basically to writing this book that you didn't have with your others.
ERIS: Mm, yeah. That's a really good question. So for my first book, I mean it was obviously, it was commissioned off the back of a soon defunct, crowd-funded anthology project. It was like the one good thing that came out of that project. So it was an essay that I'd written. It wasn't even the whole essay. I think the editor got in touch with me after reading an excerpt from an essay that we put up on the crowd-funder page and I still do not know to this day how he found me. Obviously very grateful, it was the start of a huge journey and I don't know, it makes me kind of shudder when I think about if he hadn't gotten in touch. Well, I'd be doing something else right now, but whatever. So it was extremely haphazard, I had never written a book before. I think I had done a thesis that was like 8,000 words. I'd written a couple of shitty nanowrimo novels, but I had never written an actual book, so it was very haphazard, very experimental. And they kind of just wound me up and let me go. They didn't really give me here's your various deadlines, and here's the outline we want you to work from. Basically they gave me a list of topics they wanted the book to touch on, and I had immense freedom to basically do whatever I want. Shoutout to Jessica Kingsley publishing. They are the best.
KAYLA: Yes!
ERIS: They're great to work with and we love them, so that was like the first book. I also didn't have the platform that I have now, such as this.
(15:00)
ERIS: Oh my god I can hear a little cat in the background. So cute.
KAYLA: He's doing a little sleep. Must be involved.
ERIS: Yeah. So I didn't have the same platform that I have now. I only spoke to about 14 non-binary people and I kind of extrapolated out our experiences based on that. And of course the book came out in 2019, and everything's already changed so much so we're not even going to talk about that. That's a rabbit hole we're not going down. For this book, I was doing a similar thing because it seemed to work well for They/Them/Their. The thing is trying to function as a guidebook without being a dictionary or an explainer, and I do want to talk about that a little bit later as well. And it's not like, you know, non-bin 101. I'm not here to explain what an ace experience means. I would have the same sort of brief for this book, but the stakes are a lot higher. The stakes feel a lot higher. That's sort of the main difference. I spoke to way more people, partly because I knew my experience of the aspec community was quite narrow. I had mainly only talked to other white aspec people on Tumblr, and I was like that's not good enough, I have to reach as far and wide as I can. I spoke to about 40 people, and those 40 people who got back to me after about 150 got in touch in the first instance, so it was a way bigger spread of experiences. Obviously, we were all using English to communicate so that necessarily narrows the scope somewhat. But yeah it did really feel like the stakes were higher for this book. And also because of the unique position especially aspec people have given our history in the biomedical community. If we talk a little bit about dictionaries and explainers later, I can tell you about my murder wall that I accidentally came up with
KAYLA: (gasps) I can't wait for this
ERIS: While trying to – Oh my god it was such a thing and it didn't even really make it into the book, so I do want to talk about it.
KAYLA: Yes, please.
ERIS: Given the way that ace people have been treated throughout history, and I myself have some experience with this, I just knew I couldn't write the dictionary, I couldn't write the 101, the explainer. There had to be nuance, there had to be diversity, and it had to be as inclusive as possible. I kept trying to return to that and return to the lived experience of the people I spoke to as much as I humanly could because it did feel like it was a lot more important to – not because it's not important to the non-binary community but I think the unique position of the aspec community means that when you're writing a nonfiction book it really is important to do it right.
KAYLA: Yeah I think we felt a really similar way about writing our book, is that being in the community for so long we've seen so many 101 resources, so many explainers, which is obviously –
SARAH: That's a relative term.
KAYLA: What do you mean?
SARAH: Compared to other communities there are so few
KAYLA: Oh yeah yes
SARAH: Most of the texts about asexuality and the community are more 101 level. Continue.
KAYLA: Which like is important. People need that especially because we're so invisible for so many people, but I think we especially with the podcast started getting really bored with that and we felt the same way. We did not want our book to be 101. We wanted to go deeper for the people who already knew the 101 and were hungry for more content.
ERIS: Mhm, absolutely. Yeah.
KAYLA: So yeah, I definitely got that from your book as well. It's very accessible to people who don't have a ton of ace knowledge, but it still goes deeper for those people who kind of already know the subject matter.
ERIS: Yeah and I think that's one of the strengths of your podcast to is you can go into the weeds a little bit, and go a lot deeper than the "today we are going to talk about what aromanticism means" because yeah. The other thing about this book, and this was actually a conversation I had with my publisher, it occurs to me just now, answering your previous question as well, is that another difference between They/Them/Their and this book is that the balance between who I was writing it for.
(20:00)
ERIS: So They/Them/Their I was trying to write it both for people within the non-binary community, you know, non-binary people like myself and for people who are early in their journey, trying to figure stuff out but also for a lay person, you know, for a binary person to give them tools they might need to support the non-binary people in their lives. But this one, first and foremost is for the community. I'm not writing it for allo people. If they want to come along, I welcome them and I love the idea allo people might read my book, but it is for us because we have so little so far I think.
KAYLA: No yeah that's again the same kind of ethos we had with our book, which makes it kind of nerve-wracking to put it out into the world because obviously there's more allo people than aspec people in general so I know we've gotten some early reviews back from the book that aren't amazing that are clearly from allo people that don't
ERIS: Yeah
KAYLA: know what's going on
SARAH: Like that person who said they didn't think demisexuality was real but otherwise thought the book was okay.
KAYLA: (laughing) Yeah the person who read our entire book and said "your identity certainly isn't real" and I said –
ERIS: What? Did you read it?
KAYLA: Yeah I was like why are you here then?
ERIS: What?
KAYLA: Anyway this is us just complaining now, but it does make it scary to put out into the world, I think because then weird, nasty people can get their hands on it. No one wants that.
ERIS: Yeah. Although at the same time our community is quite small, relatively speaking, so I'm going to need some allos to buy it.
KAYLA: That's true. For money purposes, yeah. Like my grandma pre-ordered our book and I'm like sweet Judith, there's no way you're going to understand. Thanks for your money but you don't have to read it, you're not going to get it.
ERIS: God bless Judith
SARAH: You can certainly try
KAYLA: But. Judith. My boyfriend's mom wants to bring it to her bookclub, that will certainly be interesting.
SARAH: My boss bought a copy for everyone in the office and I'm like "this'll be a journey"
ERIS: That's really nice
SARAH: It is. It was very sweet.
KAYLA: You should send Lloyd the link to Eris's book too and be like "what if?"
SARAH: What if?
KAYLA: Also this one for everyone too.
ERIS: Unless?
KAYLA: (laughing) Wow I don't even know what we were talking about anymore
ERIS: I don't either
KAYLA: Okay wait I want to hear about this murder wall
ERIS: Oh my god yeah
KAYLA: So intrigued
ERIS: I'm trying to remember, I have a google doc. It's a chapter in the book that didn't make it into the book.
KAYLA: (whispering) a secret chapter
ERIS: Because my editor rightly was like "I don't know what the fuck you're talking about so we're not going to put it in"
KAYLA: (laughing) Oh no. Wait is your editor the same as ours?
ERIS: Andrew?
KAYLA: Yeah. I love Andrew so much.
ERIS: Props, shout out, god bless.
KAYLA: That's so funny
SARAH: Rip to Andrew, he's not dead he just doesn't work there anymore
KAYLA: He's not dead he just got a new job
ERIS: Yeah he's just doing his own thing now
KAYLA: Yeah. We love that for him. Anyway
ERIS: Yeah I don't even know what this is. Basically I was doing some research for the book into the history of why asexuality is medicalized and pathologized right now and I ended up going through sexology, which we all know about. Thank you Masters & Johnson, whatever. But then I went a little bit further back and I was like, but why do we put people into categories based on biological characteristics that aren't actually discrete categories? Then I was like ah it's enlightenment, they didn't do this shit in the Renaissance. So I went back to the Enlightenment and I was like that's when they had cabinets of curiosities where colonialists would go overseas and bring back a bunch of weird stuff, both animal and human and mineral and display them in their house. And then they started to monetize and that was like freak shows and that was like the interviews with asexual people in early 2000s daytime television. And I had this whole fucking – I got out my red yarn and it was basically a murder wall. I was writing this chapter and I was like it's because enlightenment and since and since isn't real and we can't put asexual people into and we don't fit the categories and it's display and this is why I'm not writing a dictionary of sexuality because if I write the dictionary of sexuality it's
(25:00)
ERIS: going to be putting all of my people in my community into little boxes with labels underneath them for an allo audience to come in and gawk at them as if we're museum cabinet curiosities/exhibits and I'm not going to do that so that's why this isn't a dictionary of sexuality and it was a whole fucking thing and it was unhinged
SARAH: I love it
KAYLA: I love it. I want this to be released. I want the secret chapter out in the world.
SARAH: I was going to say I understand why Andrew maybe thought it didn't fit in the book, but I still want to read it.
KAYLA: I still want her
ERIS: Yeah I think I might go back to her. I do have it in my google docs and I do want to turn it into a big, unhinged essay
SARAH: I would read that so hard
ERIS: Y'all would be the first people
KAYLA: Honestly I feel like you should get a graphic designer
ERIS: (laughing) actual murder wall
KAYLA: To make an actual murder wall with your string
ERIS: Yes
KAYLA: I want it. I want it so bad I can't wait.
ERIS: Okay you guys have to hold me accountable
KAYLA: I will
ERIS: I will do it, I'll turn it into a big, weird essay and I will share
KAYLA: We'll have you back on, we'll do a live reading
SARAH: Yes. You'll be great
ERIS: Yay. And it's just going to be yeah I think unhinged is the only way I can really describe
SARAH: And you know what this podcast is? Unhinged
KAYLA: Unhinged
SARAH: So it's perfect for us.
ERIS: Great.
KAYLA: Yes. It is the exact vibe for us.
SARAH: Oh man. Amazing. Wow.
ERIS: I'm glad I got to talk about that.
SARAH: I'm glad you did too. Going back to – not a more serious topic, because I do think your murder wall is a serious topic – but going back to what's in the book I suppose
ERIS: Yeah
SARAH: I really, really appreciated the chapter called Disability, Mental Illness, and Neurodivergence
ERIS: Yep
SARAH: Because I feel like first of all, as you kind of mentioned earlier, the biomedicalization of aspec identities. Yes. Is something that is often done to us and you hear all these sort of anecdotes about people's experiences but it was so nice to kind of have a place where it's in one spot where you kind of dive into that. I guess what was your process with that chapter?
ERIS: That one was really tricky. That was one of the last chapters that I had outlined, and I found the structure of it really difficult to figure out. And I think that's because all of that stuff is so intertwined and also because that sort of medicalization thing happens to us as you say without our consent is so kind of pervasive and it kind of really infuses all sorts of discourse and stuff about what it is, and not discourse within the community, but discourse about what it means to be asexual and to be a part of the community. I didn't consciously choose to put it all into one spot, but I did know that I wanted to talk about it and I also knew that for the rest of the book, I wanted to step back from that as much as possible because I didn't want that to be the overarching tone, you know? That has its place in the discussion but I didn't want it to be the be all end all of what it is like to be us, so while I knew I wanted to talk about it I definitely didn't want it to infuse the rest of the book.
SARAH: Yeah it's something that has its place, it's something we should discuss because people are going to ask us about it and it is an issue amongst our community, but it's not something that necessarily defines who we are or defines who we are as a community, so I appreciate that it had its place in your book and then you talked about other stuff too.
ERIS: Yeah. I pulled it off.
KAYLA: Yeah I do think the amount of people that we've had talk to us about 1) terrible experience with doctors and therapists and then 2) I guess in the same kind of umbrella topic asking us am I allowed to be aspec if I have this of disability, an I allowed to be aspec when I have this trauma? And it's like I'm not...
ERIS: Girl I can't give you permission
KAYLA: I don't fucking know. First of all, I don't have the key to the community. Second of all, it doesn't matter if something else "informs your sexuality." Not everyone is born this way, you know? And that's something we need to talk about more so having that in this book where even people who, again have gone through the 101 of aspec
(30:00)
KAYLA: identities but that kind of deeper stuff they're still struggling with, I hope people find that helpful. Because we get that kind of question so often and I just wish it was more clear from the outset to people that you can just come here and be fine and no one's going to kick you out
ERIS: Mhm.
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: and if they're trying to kick you out they suck
ERIS: We'll come
SARAH: Tell me their name I will find them
KAYLA: We'll go get them
ERIS: Oh my god am I allowed to swear on this podcast? That's fine right?
SARAH: Oh yeah
KAYLA: Yes.
ERIS: Okay thank god. Yes you're absolutely right. I think that one of the things that really became clear to me while writing this book is it really is part of my whole sort of ethos, I had this whole thing I was doing while trying to write the book, is that it's okay to not know exactly where such and such a thing comes from and it's okay not to have an exact word to precisely describe something and it's okay to have other stuff going on. And because none of this is easily separable: my mental health and my sexuality and my experiences of romance. That cannot be separated from each other, they can't be separated from my financial situation, which fucking sucks but is true. It cannot be separated from my career, my geographical location, you know, none of that is separable. It's all mixed up together and so yeah it really makes me upset when I hear people feel like they don't have a place in the community because they are mentally ill or because are disabled and it's like no the community should be for you before anyone else. Yeah and I just really hope that and I think we are in a place, at least the conversation you guys and I are having right now, we're moving past this kind of born this way narrative, we're moving past this idea that if you're not a gold star asexual then your identity is invalid. And I also want to move past the concept of validity in general. I fucking hate that word. So yeah. Just can have a little nuance for a change.
SARAH: It reminds me so much of how, and you mention this in the book, how so many aspecs, they experience push back from the broader queer community and we're told by other queer people there is a barrier to entry, there is a certain thing you have to experience a certain type of attraction and you have to be sex-positive not in the sense "I support people's right to have sex" but in the sense "I'm having as much sex as possible"
ERIS: Right
SARAH: And that's kind of the way they think about it, so then when those same people come to our community they expect there to be the same barriers
ERIS: Mhm
SARAH: But the whole point of our community is that there aren't. And that's something that people have to learn. And obviously there are going to be people in any community who are gatekeepers for some fucking reason
ERIS: Mhm
SARAH: But that's not the majority and it's important to us that there aren't those barriers.
ERIS: Yeah I think it's a fundamental part of if we're going to function as a community we have to, we're so unique and special in so many other ways. We're just special little guys
SARAH: Yeah
ERIS: And in this way too, we don't gatekeep each other. I mean, I don't know maybe some of us do
KAYLA: But we shouldn't. We should not.
SARAH: But we don't claim them. Yeah.
KAYLA: What you said earlier made me think of another thing I really enjoyed just kind of about the vibe of the book. You were talking about how you don't need to understand yourself exactly or know where something comes from.
ERIS: Mhm
KAYLA: That's something I really enjoyed about the book is that you did not position yourself as someone who even had themselves figured out. Even at the beginning of this podcast you were like "I use this word sometimes" and "sometimes this word". To me, sometimes you can kind of get in your head of oh everyone who has some kind of platform in this community and is doing advocacy work, they must have everything figured out. They must be super confident in their identities. Which I know for Sarah and I is not true. My identity changed while we were writing our book.
SARAH: Your identity has changed twice over the length of this podcast.
KAYLA: Yeah. If you listen to the whole podcast you can hear me change
ERIS: That's fucking incredible
KAYLA: It's very wild
(35:00)
KAYLA: It's like a whole audio diary at this point. But it just felt really affirming to me like this person can write this whole book, can bring this resource to people, as someone who is very up front about the fact that "yeah I still have stuff to figure out too and that's okay"
ERIS: Yeah I have no fucking clue
KAYLA: Yeah, which like, no one does. And I just think it's good to reaffirm other people like I also have no idea. I can give you advice as possible but take it with a grain of salt because I'm also silly.
SARAH: Anyone who positions themselves as knowing everything about any subject is fucking lying to you.
KAYLA: (laughing) Yeah
SARAH: They just want to make themselves feel good.
KAYLA: Yes.
ERIS: Yeah
SARAH: And there are no true experts in anything because no one one can know anything, and I appreciate in the introduction at the start of this you mentioned you weren't sure if you were qualified to write this book.
ERIS: Mhm
SARAH: And you know that's a very aspec sentiment, but I think it's really good to recognize that and be honest about that and say hey I know all these things, I talked to all these people, I got this entire ass book published, but I'm still sometimes (makes sound of confusion)
KAYLA: (laughing) just a silly little guy
ERIS: I'm just, yeah. Yeah I think you said it. I really have no clue what's going on with me at any given moment, and so far no one has yelled at me. Sometimes I have the sense that wow I published this whole book, wow I'm really lucky that no one has yelled at me for the fact that I don't even know what my identity word is. I don't know if that's going to happen or what
KAYLA: It better not. I'd be so mad.
ERIS: Because only god can judge me so it's fine
KAYLA: So true
ERIS: I really don't think –
SARAH: Only god and these fists. Let's go.
ERIS: Yeah I think I feel very free. I think early on, super early on, basically as soon as I'd written that introduction I was like okay it's fine actually. I decided it's fine actually, I'm never going to get this book done if I wait until I know what's going on, and I just really love that about this community. I was able to do this whole work and be part of the community and still not know, and it's fine and it's been great, and I love that my community has given me that freedom.
SARAH: And I know something in our book – not to bring up our book again, this is about your book
KAYLA: Yet
ERIS: But go on, you did
SARAH: Listen I have ADHD this is how I connect with people. I just tell stories about myself then I'm like "wait did I talk about myself too much?" but in our book that was something we struggled with where we wanted to give a caveat and say we're not experts but we didn't want to kneecap ourselves too much and say "we don't know what we're talking about but here's a book about it anyway" and that was something we wrote a line about and we asked our editor Andrew about and we were like "is this too much?" and he was like "you can be nicer to yourselves"
KAYLA: (laughing) Yeah Andrew was like "please stop it". God bless him.
ERIS: No negative self talk
KAYLA: But that's the thing is, and I think that's why both of our books we included so many voices from other people because I don't know what's going on, these people don't know what's going on either, but if we can all talk about stuff collectively
ERIS: Yes.
KAYLA: Maybe we'll figure it out
SARAH: We'll find some trends
ERIS: That's the exact thing. Also that, the caveat there is I don't want to do statistics on us either
KAYLA: Yeah
ERIS: But I have to being up to the ace census people
KAYLA: True, yes it is.
ERIS: But yeah I think that is the power. We just get as many people to talk about their real life experiences as possible, and that's your authority right there. You don't have to have a fancy degree, and you don't have to know what epistemology means
KAYLA: Mhm
ERIS: And it's still fine you can still write a good ass book
KAYLA: It's true. We got through all the questions I had written down. Is there anything else about the book that you really wanted to talk about?
ERIS: Actually I did write like a page of – hold on.
SARAH: They came prepared.
KAYLA: Give us your notes.
ERIS: I mean I did, but I can't read any of it.
(laughter)
ERIS: Yeah actually I've got something.
(40:00)
ERIS: I guess just sort of I can kind of talk about the wider stuff the book is about. I don't know how you're going to segue to this within the episode.
SARAH: This is your segue. Let's talk about it.
ERIS: Cool. So one of the things that I also wanted to do with the book was to interrogate as much as I could, after spending like 20 minutes talking about how I don't have a degree and don't know what epistemology means I wanted to interrogate as much as I could the larger dynamics at play in how we think about sexuality and romance and the nuclear family. Angela Chen does an amazing job of this as well. Pretty sure she does know what epistemology means.
(laughter)
SARAH: She has to. She must.
KAYLA: I think she does. She's so smart.
ERIS: But I wanted to sort of look at the ways that especially capitalism and colonialism have played a part in shaping the way that all people living in the world today experience sex and sexual desire and you know, family and stuff like that. Because if you know that the sexual expectations that we have of people of color come from colonialism which itself is motivated by capitalism, if you know that the nuclear family was a thing because that's the unit of production, then it's a lot easier to accept that experiencing sexual desire and romantic love are not universal.
SARAH: It's all made up
ERIS: Exactly! It's all products of other shit that we have no control over, and researching this book, I was so lucky to do this project because I could kind of get my head above water, in a sense. I was doing my murder wall or whatever but I really learned so much and it really made me be able to see past what we're taught about sex and romance, and I really value that, and I hope that that does come through in the book and that that adds value for the reader, because it was really important for me to do that. And I did that in my first book as well where I was talking about where binary gender comes from and how it wasn't always like this and stuff like that. And I think that's really important for us to know as people within the community.
SARAH: Yeah and I think it was good that you were honest about there were identities the people you talked to that you'd never heard of, that you didn't fully understand at the start of this
ERIS: Mhm
SARAH: At the start of this. And I guess that kind of brings me to the one last question that I have.
ERIS: Mhm
SARAH: Which is were there any discoveries that surprised you when you were writing this book? Something that you didn't see coming that kind of helped shape where the book is now.
ERIS: Hm
SARAH: (laughing) The answer can be no
ERIS: Well I feel like the whole thing was kind of a continuous happy surprise
SARAH: One big surprise
ERIS: Yeah, I mean just because I was pleasantly surprised by how many people got in touch with me to say thank you for even asking them questions about themselves, and how many people said nice things about the fact that the project exists, and just hearing that people in our community do value what I'm doing and what we're doing out here. And I think the sheer diversity of the community – it shouldn't have surprised me, but it was much more than I ever imagined. I think it made me realize I had this preconceived notion of what it meant to be ace, aro, etc.
SARAH: Mhm
ERIS: In my head and it just totally exploded that. It shouldn't have been surprising, but it kind of was.
SARAH: Yeah
ERIS: Yeah. I don't know.
SARAH: Yeah I think me and Kayla have had similar experiences just because we're both white aspecs who grew up in suburban America. We have a very specific perspective on what we expect things to be, and it's one of the great things that our community is really improving on doing now is pushing beyond that and showing that the community is so much more diverse than so many people think.
ERIS: Yeah, and I just learned so much by watching on YouTube the AVEN conference – don't know why I said it like that – the AceCon panels where they actually asked people
(45:00)
ERIS: with different lives experience what their experiences were. I learned so much. Going into the project, I didn't know how much I didn't know. So yeah that was really good.
SARAH: yeah. Great.
ERIS: I guess also, oh my god, I really just don't care about sex. I don't like writing about it, I don't give a shit. That's the other thing I wanted to do with the book. I just don't care. I don't know if you guys have had this experience, but especially reading academic articles
KAYLA: Mhm
ERIS: About what asexuality is and what it means they just end up being about sex anyways and it's like, I don't care can we stop talking about this? And that was just the other thing
SARAH: Yeah there's one of two stances: either "oh my god they don't want sex no sex please" or it's like "asexuals can still have sex" and it's like, let's give it more nuance, come on.
ERIS: The whole point is that we don't care that much about this thing. Why are we still talking about it?
SARAH: Yeah, I agree with that.
KAYLA: Yeah we did... these books are really just sisters, I think. I wrote the sex chapter for our book, and I think it is the shortest chapter in the book because I was also just like I don't – shut up
(laughter)
KAYLA: So yeah. I think it'll be a welcome change for the aspec people who are reading this book who are so used to having to read the think pieces and stuff that's so focused on sex and obviously we're so tired of that
SARAH: Like debating whether we have the right to exist or whether we're normal
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: Like, shut the fuck up
KAYLA: Yeah. So this'll be a welcome change of this is content actually written by an aspec person who's not going to be weird about it, so.
SARAH: Yeah.
ERIS: We can just literally talk about anything else.
KAYLA: Anything else.
ERIS: I beg you, any other topic.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: (laughing) What are your thoughts on bell peppers? Anything.
ERIS: Oh, really good
SARAH: Amazing
ERIS: Little roasted red bell pepper with tomato soup (chef's kiss)
SARAH: I love that for you
KAYLA: I've never heard of that, that sounds so good.
SARAH: Alright, great. Well.
ERIS: Yeah.
KAYLA: Everyone go pre-order Ace Voices. Google Ace Voices Eris Young and all of the websites will come up where you can pre-order it, so do it. Right now.
SARAH: Buy it where you buy books
ERIS: Right now immediately
KAYLA: Right now immediately
SARAH: Also ask that your local libraries get it
ERIS: Yes!
KAYLA: Mhm
SARAH: That's a good one.
ERIS: Mhm
KAYLA: Go to the website of your local independent bookstore, type it into their little search thing. You can pre-order from them online and then they get the money instead of Amazon
ERIS: Hell yeah
SARAH: Fuck Beezbos.
ERIS: I'd rather y'all did not buy it off Amazon. If that's your only available, sure whatever but yeah.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: You can do better
ERIS: Shop a union, join a union, etc.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: All of the above. Great.
KAYLA: The book is out in December so you have time now.
ERIS: December 21
KAYLA: But you should do it now before you forget.
ERIS: Yeah preorders actually really help me out as an author
KAYLA: Yes
ERIS: They really help my starting numbers. If the book gets enough preorders it potentially could get onto bestseller lists, not that I...
KAYLA: Mhm
ERIS: Not that that's necessarily going to happen here but
KAYLA: No it's going to happen. It's happening. It's going to happen
ERIS: But yeah preorders really help for all authors, and that goes for y'all's book as well.
SARAH: True.
KAYLA: Yes in this season of ace books. Pre-order them all now
ERIS: Yeah pre-order Kayla and Sarah's book
KAYLA: And then it'll just be a little present when it comes. You'll forget that you ordered it and then it'll just come and you'll be like oh my god free present because you bought it so long ago that now it's free.
ERIS: Mhm
KAYLA: If you buy it now, by December it'll be free because you'll have forgotten. And that's how money works.
SARAH: Precisely. Tell me again what the release date is.
ERIS: 21st of December
SARAH: Perfect for Christmas
KAYLA: Yeah, holiday gift!
SARAH: Little late for Hannukah, don't remember exactly when Hannukah is this year. Kwanza, New Years
ERIS: Yeah
SARAH: All of them.
ERIS: Festive.
KAYLA: Get it
SARAH: Gift it to everyone you know
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: Amazing
ERIS: They won't understand
SARAH: That's fine. Help inform them
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Kayla, what's our poll for this week? Are you going to buy this book: yes, yes
KAYLA: Have you preordered this book yet?
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: Yes, or no I'm stinky
SARAH: Again we need to have a third option
KAYLA: A third option that is I wish I could but I'm currently unable to.
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: That is an okay option. The no option is incorrect.
SARAH: Don't be stinky
KAYLA: If you have an excuse it's fine. Don't be stinky.
ERIS: Yeah that's allowed.
KAYLA: Yeah.
(50:00)
SARAH: Okay great. Alright. Kayla what is your beef and your juice this week?
KAYLA: Mm. My beef is that – okay, no. Okay I have a gravy, a saucy
SARAH: a gravy?
KAYLA: That's what our listeners remember? A juice that's like a beef is a gravy. We coined this.
SARAH: I missed that but I love it.
KAYLA: We've talked about this on the podcast before.
SARAH: Have we?
KAYLA: Yes. It's finally getting colder here in the great Boston area, which is very nice. I can finally wear sweatpants inside and not have the AC on all the time. But now me and everyone else is getting the seasons are changing itchy throat, stuffy nose and that's not fun. So it's my gravy because it's good but it's also stinky.
SARAH: Okay. My juice is that the day this comes out I'm going to be at my sister's wedding shower.
KAYLA: Huzzah!
SARAH: So that'll be fun. I asked her if –
KAYLA: I thought you were just going to say your sister's wedding at first
SARAH: No that's in February
KAYLA: And I was like no there's no way
SARAH: Yeah that's in February. Kayla you're invited to that wedding you should know when it is.
KAYLA: I know. It's going to be my first gay wedding I'm very excited.
SARAH: Oh my god, really?
KAYLA: I know can you believe?
SARAH: I've been to so many they're so good. My beef is the cost and inconvenience of cross country travel
KAYLA: Mm.
SARAH: Eris, I'm from Michigan originally but I live in California
ERIS: Woah
SARAH: So every time I go home it's a process.
ERIS: What part of California?
SARAH: Los Angeles
ERIS: Got to know, but yeah. Oh nice I went to school and spent a lot of time there.
SARAH: Yeah.
ERIS: Because Orange County yeah
SARAH: Orange County is expensive. But yeah then again it's also wild we can even do this travel to begin with so what am I complaining about, but also it's expensive.
ERIS: But also it's expensive. Yeah.
KAYLA: And that's why everyone needs to buy our book. So you can fund Sarah's travel
SARAH: I was wondering where you were going with that.
KAYLA: And pay off Eris's many degrees
SARAH: Incredible. Eris, what is your beef and your juice this week?
ERIS: So my beef is that the Queen of England has literally come up to my country and died
KAYLA: (laughter) She really did. I'm so glad you're bringing this up because when I told my roommates I was talking to someone who was living in the UK they were like "you should ask how they feel about the Queen" and I was like "I'm not doing that"
ERIS: Oh my god. So she came up here and died and literally nobody I know gives a shit. Scottish people don't care
KAYLA: No
ERIS: But I work like 5 minutes walk from St. Giles' Cathedral where she is lying in state
SARAH: Mm.
ERIS: I don't know why they moved her, I don't know
SARAH: I think they moved her because someone yelled at Prince Andrew
ERIS: Oh yeah that guy. He got to say his piece in the news as well. My pal actually went there as well and was very tempted to yell at Prince Andrew
KAYLA: I would've
ERIS: Yeah but he didn't want to get arrested, so
KAYLA: That's fair
ERIS: I was like "if you got arrested you wouldn't have to come to work"
KAYLA: (laughing) You know what? So true
ERIS: So that's happening like 5 minutes away from my work. There's a procession. My co-workers got stranded. One of my coworkers came into town for a dentist appointment, missed the appointment because of the traffic, then got stranded and had to wait in work until like nighttime because the road was blocked. They blocked the main road – I think it's over now but they blocked the main road leading north to south through the entire city and it was just blocked. Luckily I live in the West End so I didn't have to deal with it. Haha, losers. But it was a giant pain in the ass for so many people who just do not care. So that's my beef. And my juice is that it is autumn, baby! And I live next to, not next to, pretty close to some very nice woodlands and I can go and look at fungus whenever I want
KAYLA: That sounds so delightful, oh my god
SARAH: I love that for you. One of the things I hate about living in SoCal is seasons? What are they?
ERIS: Mudslide, fire.
SARAH: Hm.
ERIS: Those are the seasons
SARAH: I got so excited. About a week ago it rained and I was like "rain in September?!"
KAYLA: (laughing) In my Los Angeles?
SARAH: It was the best day of my life.
ERIS: Yeah
SARAH: Alright. Great. Everyone you can answer our poll, tell us about your beef and your juice on our social media @soundsfakepod
(55:00)
SARAH: Eris where can the kids at home find you? Other than on the streets of Edinburgh
KAYLA: (laughing) Yeah
ERIS: On the streets of Edinburgh
KAYLA: Among the fungus
ERIS: Fingers a centimeter apart, Edinburgh is so small you can literally walk down the street and you'll see me, so come and say hello. I'm very fun. I occasionally tweet on @young_e_h. Yeah that's got all my links. And actually you can just google Eris Young and my website shows up. My book is out December 21st. Also I have a very gay short story out in a magazine called Pseudopod
KAYLA: Ooh
ERIS: It's like a vampire story, it's very gay and a bit fucked up. So if you want to listen to that, that's out on October 14th.
KAYLA: Nice. That sounds delightful.
SARAH: Gay and fucked up? I'm in
ERIS: Mhm, yeah. I mean gays who listen to podcasts, this is like the whole market
KAYLA: Everyone's here
ERIS: Yeah
KAYLA: Yeah. Oh my god, I'm so excited for that. I'm gay and I love a podcast, and I love fucked up vampires
ERIS: (laughing) Yeah!
KAYLA: That's my city!
SARAH: (laughing) These are my people. Amazing. Alright. We also have a patreon, Sarah from the future will tell you about that.
SARAH: Hey besties, it's Sarah from the future. I am here with your patrons. Our $5 patrons who are promoting – who we are promoting – no take 2, we are just powering through. Rachel, Ria Faustino, Sam, Savannah Cozart, and Scott Ainslie. Shoutout to all of you. You're all great. Our $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are – first of all, very upset that Kayla's not here for this, because the first one is my beloved niece Rosie Costello who would like to promote voting in upcoming midterm elections and in particular, voting for individuals that support year round lake swimming. Swimming in lakes is very important to Ms. Rosie and she does not appreciate when she is told she cannot swim in the big water bowls when it is winter. She doesn't like that. She wants to swim year round. So please vote for candidates that support year round Rosie swims. Also, you know, if you're American and you're eligible to vote you should do that. Make sure you're registered to vote, votesaveamerica.com. Anyway Barefoot Backpacker who would like to promote their podcast, Travel Tales from Beyond the Brochure, The Steve who would like to promote Ecosia, a search engine for the trees, and Zirklteo who would like to promote the fact that England isn't real, and this is especially true given the recent demise, yeeting, zooting, of the Queen. She was the glue holding the vestiges of England together and now England is no longer a real place. It's an imagined piece of our zeitgeist, and if you live in England, no you don't. Our other $10 patrons Arcnes, Ari K, Benjamin Ybarra, Changeling and Alex the ace cat, David Jay, David Nurse, Derek and Carissa, CinnamonToastPunch, my Aunt Jeannie, Maggie Capalbo, Martin Chiesl, Mattie, Potater, and Purple Hayes. Our $15 patrons are Andrew Hillum who would like to promote the Invisible Spectrum Podcast, Click4Caroline who would like to promote Ace of Hearts, Dia Chappell who would like to promote Twitch.tv/MelodyDia, Hector Murillo who would like to support friends that are supportive, constructive, and help you grow as a better person. Hector would like to support them and also promote them. Keziah Root who would like to promote the people who come into your life for a small time but when you need them, Nathaniel White who would like to promote NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com, Kayla's Aunt Nina who would like to promote @katemaggart.art, Sara Jones who is @eternalloli everywhere. Thanks. Our $20 patrons are Sabrina Hauck who would like to pronounce? who would like to promote Merry Christmas from your parents, and Dragonfly who would like to promote not having a tummy ache. Also Kayla emailed ourselves a blank email and the subject line just says Bagel promo aspeccentral.com. Bagel is our lovely, lovely transcriber. Hi Bagel you will be the first one to hear this, and I don't think Bagel is a patron? I'm almost positive Bagel is not a patron. We pay Bagel, so I was confused by this. I asked Kayla about it but she is sleeping, so I'm just going to say it. It's a nice little website, aspeccentral.com. It's got some information, looks like Weasel contributed to it, some icons of the SFBO discord. So yeah. I'm going to promote that. I'm slightly confused about the context because I can't quite figure it out, but you know, Kayla emailed it to ourselves and I guess she wanted me to say it? I don't know. She's asleep. It's 11 PM. Okay back to Sarah and Kayla and Eris from the past. Thank you.
SARAH: Thanks Sarah from the future, that was great.
KAYLA: You look really nice today, Sarah from the future. Thank you so much for your broadcast.
SARAH: Great. Well again, everyone, buy Eris's book Ace Voices
KAYLA: And buy They/Them/Theirs. That one's already out
SARAH: There's no s on the end. Get the title right.
KAYLA: They/Them/Their. Excuse me.
ERIS: It's all the same
KAYLA: That one's already out
ERIS: Yeah
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: That one's there to purchase right away for your instant gratification
SARAH: Would you say its They/Them/There?
KAYLA: No
ERIS: Done there
KAYLA: Darn there
SARAH: (laughing) amazing
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: On that note, thank you so much Eris for joining us and for writing such a delightful book. Tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your cows.
(1:01:11)