Ep 245: Nudity in Art
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SARAH: Hey, what's up, hello. Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aroace girl, I'm Sarah, that's me.
KAYLA: And a bi-demisexual girl, that's me, Kayla.
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.
KAYLA: On today's episode, nudity in art.
SARAH AND KAYLA: Sounds Fake But Okay.
(theme music plays)
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod.
KAYLA: Yep.
SARAH: So true. I hope everyone has had a great week.
KAYLA: I have not.
SARAH: Kayla, why have you not?
(laughter)
KAYLA: Yesterday, I spent six hours in the hospital with Dean. He is fine. It's something weird happening with his arm. It looks nasty. They don't know what happened. But it's fine.
SARAH: I love that for you.
KAYLA: Yeah. So just another Kayla goes to the ER adventure.
SARAH: Mhm. And also, this is also housekeeping. I received copies of our book
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: in the mail last week, the day after we recorded.
KAYLA: And so have several other people. I don't know if it's just a thing with our publisher, because I know this has been happening with Cody's book, I Am Ace, which comes out the same day as ours. People have been getting their books since December. People that pre-ordered it. So I don't know why that's happening. But now people, at least three people that we know of, have the book early.
SARAH: (laughing) And Kayla does not.
KAYLA: (laughing) And I don't, which I'm really pissed about.
SARAH: Do you know where those people ordered the books from?
KAYLA: No.
SARAH: Because my friend who already got it ordered it from bookshop.org.
KAYLA: Yeah, I'm guessing it's people that ordered it from indie places. Because I think if you order it from Barnes and Noble, they don't even ship it until the release day.
SARAH: Which is why people are getting March 1st as their delivery date.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Well, if you bought it at bookshop.org, you might be getting it early. So, surprise!
KAYLA: Here's all I'll say is that maybe you should just pre-order it from bookshop.org now, and you'll probably get it really soon. So if you want it early, you should just pre-order it and then you'll have it now.
SARAH: Yeah, I've got six hot and fresh copies right here and Kayla's got none.
KAYLA: I'm so mad. It's because we aren't sure if they sent it to my old address and they haven't told me yet. Which makes me think that they're just sending me new ones and decided not to tell me that I didn't give them my address fast enough. I don't know.
SARAH: Who knows? Maybe someone at your old place in Baton Rouge is going to get a sick, sick gift.
KAYLA: Yeah, I could call my old landlord. I just really don't feel like it. So I haven't.
SARAH: That's valid.
KAYLA: Maybe I should. Anyway, this is not the fault of our publisher at all. I just didn't give them my updated address fast enough.
SARAH: I think it's funny.
KAYLA: I would think it's funny if I had them. I'll think it's funny later.
SARAH: You'll think it's funny later. No, the thing I mostly think is funny, what I meant was that people are just getting our book a month early. I just think that's funny.
KAYLA: Yeah, it's very weird because I haven't really wrapped my mind around it. I wasn't prepared for that. I know people have already been reading it early on NetGalley and stuff.
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: But yeah, I wasn't really.
SARAH: Yeah, my friend texted me about the first couple of lines and she was like, I love it.
KAYLA: See, I'm not ready for that. The other day someone I know here in Boston was like, oh, it's coming out next month. That's so exciting. And he was like, is there anything I can do to support you or anything other than buying the book? And I was like, yeah, that's really it. I was like, if you hate it, don't tell me.
SARAH: Shut the fuck up
KAYLA: And don't say anything. And he was like, how about I just never tell you when I read it? And so you'll never know. And I was like, that's actually perfect.
SARAH: Don’t perceive me
KAYLA: I just don't want to know if or when you ever read it. That's fine, actually.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: It's just weird with people I actually know.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Anyway, buy our book.
SARAH: Buy our book! soundsfakepod.com/book
KAYLA: Oh, someone did tell me a lovely listener named Grace who got their book today said that they've started listening to the bonus episodes that come with it and that they really like them. So that's very exciting.
SARAH: I bet Grace is the first one to hear them.
KAYLA: Probably.
SARAH: Grace, you've done it.
KAYLA: You did it. Yeah. So also just a reminder that bonus episodes
(05:00)
KAYLA: in the book. So get into it.
SARAH: They get progressively less serious as they go.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: So look forward to that. Alright. Kayla, what are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: This week, we're going to… this was one of the suggestions my roommates had when I was having a brainstorm session with them the other day about nudity in art and what the difference is between like just someone being nude in art and like porn or it being like sexually explicit.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Sarah and I are not art or art history experts.
SARAH: No.
KAYLA: I don't think we mean to come in this with giving you anything informed.
SARAH: No
KAYLA: Just our thoughts and opinions as always.
SARAH: I will, in fact, start with an anecdote about BTS.
KAYLA: Great.
SARAH: Just what was it yesterday as we're recording? My main man, Min Yoongi, my bias was was at the Fashion Week in Paris because they're all just trading off, going to Fashion Week, ships in the night, passing in the air. And he was at the Valentino show. And first of all, he was seated next to Sam Smith and then next to Sam Smith was Charlie XCX. And then there was a random person wearing bright pink. She's probably not random to her, but like someone I didn't know. And then on the other side of her was Doja Cat. And I was like, why didn't you put Doja Cat next to my guy?
KAYLA: That would have been good.
SARAH: Anyway, he was at the Valentino Avant Garde fashion show. And there was one where the model was wearing like big pants. And she was just like not really wearing a shirt. So her tits were out. And there is a video of her, you know, walking the runway. And you can see Yoongi in the background just like not looking at her.
(laughter)
SARAH: And to be honest, all of the videos, he was kind of looking further down the runway. Like I think he just like wasn't so much looking at them as they were passing him.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like he was looking at them as they were coming up. But people were making jokes about it. And so I thought it was just like funny
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: because that's like a very him thing to just like not just do not perceive. But some people then were getting like weird about it.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And being like, especially the Hets.
KAYLA: Always the Hets.
SARAH: Always the Hets. And like some people were making jokes about like, oh yeah, that doesn't faze him. He sees Namjoon's tits all the time. Namjoon being another member of BTS. And like that I found pretty funny. But then like people were being like, oh, well, he knows not to look at other girls. I was like, what the fuck is wrong with you?
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: Well, because you know also that if he had looked for a second too long, it would be in the fucking tabloids.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: So like, if anything, he's protecting himself.
KAYLA: Probably. Yeah, that's what I would do.
SARAH: But it just led to this very annoying discourse
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: because like I thought the video was funny. But like anything beyond, oh, that's funny, was starting to piss me off because people were like getting way, way too into it. Because, you know, that's nudity. And in Korea, it's a lot more conservative and it's less free the nip in Korea than it is in France.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And so it's just like, you know, there's a cultural difference, but also it's just like, I mean, it is art. But it's nudity. But it's art. But people are going to perceive it a certain way, which ties in to this episode.
KAYLA: Yeah, I mean, it's like, it's a really weird line of what is someone being nude in a piece of art or like, say, if they're like dancing or like it's like a sex scene in a movie or even like a sex scene in like a stage play or something.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And then like what is like porn or what is erotic.
SARAH: Yeah. As that judge once said with porn, you know it when you see it.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But I think that's true of like explicit sex scenes. But what about just nudity? What like, at what point does artful nudity become like exposing yourself? And I think that's a little less clear.
KAYLA: Yeah, well I did look at like see if there's any like articles or anything on this because not to be too informative on the podcast, but I wanted to see.
SARAH: Yeah. We should never do that.
KAYLA: No. And it does seem like this is like similar to like the porn thing of like I know it when I see it
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: is it's just like something that's very much so up for debate in like the art world
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KAYLA: and like no one, you know, really has a full grasp on it?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But I thought it was interesting. It's this article on Artfinder. It was kind of talking about how like it's all about context.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: And about like whether the art is just like nudity itself and that's all you should get from it or if like there's a deeper meaning to the painting.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And they were kind of saying like if you're looking at this painting and all you can get from it is like that's a naked person that like maybe that's just porn
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: but if it's for like a deeper meaning than like, you know, like they were talking about.
SARAH: That's just an oil paint dick pic.
KAYLA: Yeah, like they were talking about there's, I don't know if I know this painting, but it's a Keith Herring mural that has a lot of penises, I guess.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But it's about like the mural is about like HIV and AIDS awareness and stuff like that. So obviously like that is art.
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: But then it's like, when do you get to the point where you're like, well, I could assign meeting to this and then when do you when is it just a penis, you know?
SARAH: Yeah, and it's also just like there are so many cultural and just like personal differences.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: like, yeah, there's going to be a different cultural understanding of like, what nudity is bad in Paris versus in Dubai. But there also might be a one random person in Dubai who's like, no, this is fine. And then there might be one random person in Paris who's like, no, this is horrible. Like, it's, there, there are trends and stuff, but like it really is just individual thought.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And people will just fucking argue about it.
KAYLA: Yeah. Well, I think it's also like, it's, it comes, I think even more complicated when you're looking at, like, women in nudity specifically in art, like I'm thinking of like fine art, as it were, like paintings and sculptures and stuff like.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: typical museum stuff rather than like physical like dancing or acting or like fashion stuff like that.
SARAH: like performance art.
KAYLA: Yeah, performance art Like I feel like you see nude women far more often.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: In, like, say like ancient Greek well I guess ancient Greek there are a lot of men's penises.
SARAH: I had a thing I would like to go into about that but continue your point.
KAYLA: Okay, like Renaissance paintings where there's always like the woman lounging with like her tits out or whatever.
SARAH: I like it when it's just one tit out.
KAYLA: I do think that's fun.
SARAH: Just a one tit.
KAYLA: But it reminds me of this thing that we saw actually in the Met when we were there and I found it in this one BBC article. It's this like poster I think from the 80s there was like this feminist kind of movement about, there's like too many naked women in museums so that basically it's a poster of like this naked woman with like a gorilla mask on and it says do women, do women have to be naked to get into the Met Museum, less than 4% of the artists in the modern art sections are women but 76% of the nudes are female. So just kind of like the vast majority of women in art in the Met were nude or else it was like men.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Which like is very interesting because would I classify like a Renaissance painting of a woman lounging there with a tit out as porn or as sexualized? Not really. But is that because it's like an old painting and like I'm not getting anything out of that because it's not something that like in a modern sense I am like stimulated by?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Because when those were painted I don't really, I don't know enough about art history to know like why those were being painted.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But I can't imagine they were being painted as porn because like that kind of thing wasn't okay back then.
SARAH: Yeah. Like I don't know how often women just had one tit out back in the day.
KAYLA: Yeah I don't know.
SARAH: But yeah it's interesting because like on one hand it was more puritanical back then. KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But on the other hand there were less like if you were just like a lower class person like sometimes you would just walk around with your tits out.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: and it wasn't a statement it wasn't like an abnormal thing. And like in the upper echelons it you know they got all puritanical about it and it's just weird because both of those things existed at the same time.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: My thing about statues of men, Greek statues of naked men
KAYLA: Mhm
SARAH: I don't have a good understanding of the average dick. And so my only, every time I see like a naked man sculpture
KAYLA: Mhm
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SARAH: I'm like is that like an average dick?
KAYLA: I don't know. But also wasn't there a thing about like them making the dicks smaller in those statues as like an insult or am I making that up?
SARAH: Sometimes certainly. But then sometimes it was like to be like oh yes this is. So then that's like my only, I don't just like study flaccid dicks or non flaccid dicks for that matter. But as I learned on this podcast many moons ago not all dicks are the same size when they're just hanging out.
KAYLA: Yes. Yeah
SARAH: And so I just have no concept of what an average dick is actually like. And so then when I see those sculptures I'm like is that it?
KAYLA: I guess I haven't looked at a sculpture like that in a while so I'm trying to think. But I feel like they do all kind of look pretty small.
SARAH: That's what I always think when I look at them but I don't know if that's just my misunderstanding of what a normal, average dick is.
KAYLA: I mean I haven't seen like too many dicks in my day.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And I've only seen like one in the past four years.
(laughter)
KAYLA: Except for the occasional like full frontal on the television.
SARAH: Those always scare me.
KAYLA: Yeah. You know what's funny is we were watching Holes last night, the movie
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: with young Shia LaBeouf and my roommate goes after this we should watch that music video that Shia LaBeouf is in that he's just full frontal nude. And I was like so you're telling me you just looked at child Shia LaBeouf and this was your first thought and he was like yeah every time I see him that's all I can think about. And I was like you are nasty.
SARAH: All I can think of is the Shia LaBeouf song.
KAYLA: Yeah we did talk extensively about whether filming the movie Holes made him a cannibal.
SARAH: Oh okay good. I, for some reason, this made me think of the fact that I have a friend who has a hamster.
KAYLA: Oh…kay?
SARAH: And the hamster has really big balls and they scare me. I don't like them. They make me so uncomfortable.
KAYLA: Yeah rodents are nasty like that.
SARAH: And, and every time I say something about it she's like, don't sexualize my son. And I'm like, I can't help it I'm genuinely scared. I, they make me so uncomfortable, like disproportionate sized balls to the size of the little hamster, and it just scares me.
KAYLA: I don’t like that
SARAH: Anyway.
KAYLA: I'm like skimming an article about the history of women in nude paintings.
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: I, it's a long article so I can't, I simply can't read the whole thing. But it does seem like, like pre Renaissance, that nude women, it was mostly in like, like religious paintings, like Adam and Eve type vibe.
SARAH: Yeah. Tits out for God.
KAYLA: And then the first, or like anatomical like Da Vinci, you know, and then the lady in the, the birth of Venus, the lady in the shell. That apparently is like the first painting for nude, but not religious.
SARAH: I mean, some people would argue that that's religious, just not for a modern religion.
KAYLA: Fair.
SARAH: Interesting.
KAYLA: Yeah, I don't know man I feel like people were just like, like some of these are very explicit pictures like I, like this. You're not going to want to see this but you have to.
SARAH: No, I don't like that at all.
KAYLA: It's just like a, it's just like a full woman's, like her basement area.
SARAH: Vagina
KAYLA: Her basement area.
SARAH: Especially with photography especially.
KAYLA: Like, now here's a, now here's a question.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: male photographers, whose main gig is like boudoir shoots and nude shoots with women, thoughts?
SARAH: I think it would probably depend on the dude like I would
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I would have to do a vibe check.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: But it could be very weird.
KAYLA: I just feel like I've heard of so many male photographers that like that's their thing.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And it's like, but why?
SARAH: But why
KAYLA: Because I'm sure some of them have great intentions.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: But then others I'm like, it's like a male gynecologist.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: There's something about it that's like, it's just like…
SARAH: I'm way less comfortable with you.
KAYLA: And by this I mean like cis men.
SARAH: Yeah. Stris men
KAYLA: Like cis straight men specifically.
SARAH: I also think I don't like anything that's genitalia related
(20:00)
SARAH: and that's just me.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Like I feel like we're talking so much about boobs because like boobs are taboo, if you will. But like if I could free the nip, like there's no fucking difference between a dude like, you know, there shouldn't be a difference. So for me, like that, if I see a stray boob, I'm like artistic, beautiful.
KAYLA: Well, because I'm also thinking about it and like most of the art that I'm thinking of that's nude, like the most that you see is tits and maybe like the front of the vagina. You're not seeing like...
SARAH: It's not like a vagina (pronounced vianya) shot.
KAYLA: It's not like in it. The picture I just showed Sarah, it's in a couple of the pictures in this article, are like that's a pagina.
SARAH: Yeah, and I think that's like part of the thing that makes me so uncomfortable about like photography that has nudity in it is just because it is photorealistic because it is a photo.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: And if it's just like tits out or if it's just someone who like happens to be naked and that's not the point of the picture.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Great. As soon as there's like a focus on that
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I get really uncomfortable and I don't know if that's just me really fucking hating any brand of genitalia, or if that's me feeling as though it is sexualized.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Or if those two things are… intertwined with me and can't be separated.
KAYLA: Yeah. I don't know, it's weird because it's like, I feel like the debate that I'm seeing like in these articles is like, is it porn versus is it art? Like it can be both, right?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like porn when done like in a way that is not like harmful to the people making it
SARAH: Exploitative yeah
KAYLA: like that's art, right? Like that's a movie, that's a photo, that's a painting, like that's art, objectively. But then, like you wouldn't put something that's labeled as porn in like the Met, would you? It's like that weird line of like...
SARAH: Maybe they would have a porn room.
KAYLA: Right.
SARAH: You have to show your ID before you enter.
KAYLA: I guess the line is like what is appropriate for like, what is deemed appropriate by like the higher power for like everyday consumption, right?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Like children go to the museum on a field trip and there are a lot of nude paintings and that's fine. I've heard about like schools that have like nude art classes
SARAH: That freaks me out
KAYLA: for like people that are not adult, like minors.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: So what is the line of like people saying like, yes, this is fine for a minor to see versus porn, which you have to be 18 or over or else it's technically illegal.
SARAH: Yeah. And I've heard of situations of like people do like figure painting, drawing classes where like they have a nude model.
KAYLA: A nude model, yeah.
SARAH: And like sometimes they're like expecting, like they're like, oh, this could be like weird and like, and then it's just like an old dude is just like sitting there with his dick out.
KAYLA: yeah
SARAH: But like that definitely can put you in a situation where a person could abuse that.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And like… most people don't. Most people probably just sit there and just are like, guys, can you hurry up? This is uncomfortable the way I'm sitting. I made a bad choice.
KAYLA: I mean, I have to imagine like because I think I guess I don't know how common it is anymore for like nude figure standing or whatever. But I feel like it used to be very common for art school and stuff.
SARAH: I feel like it still has to be somewhat common because I mean, yeah, we have so many like photo and video references.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But part of the whole point when you're doing that is like seeing how like shadows work
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: and like the stuff that like isn't necessarily going to come across if you're looking at video or a picture.
KAYLA: Yeah. I just have to imagine that the people they're hiring for that kind of thing are like vetted, you know?
SARAH: Certainly, yeah
KAYLA: if they're doing it so often. It kind of reminds me this like feels like a tangent, but of like wearing a bathing suit.
SARAH: Before you go on a tangent, can I just say one more thing about that?
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: I think the fact that it can it could be theoretically exploited brings in the question of okay, if we're if we're if minors are a part of this.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: If minors are in this class.
KAYLA: I don't know that they ever do classes like that with non-adults. I feel like it's a college art thing.
SARAH: It does feel like a college art thing, but like you can't tell me that there's never been someone who was under 18.
KAYLA: That's fair.
SARAH: Like do their parents have to sign off?
KAYLA: Probably.
(25:00)
SARAH: What's the protocol, you know?
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Anyway, go into your tangent.
KAYLA: Oh, it kind of reminds me of like wearing a bathing suit versus wearing underwear.
SARAH: Consent.
KAYLA: Of like, yeah, it's all about like the consent of it. Because if you're – like I have bathing suits and underwear that are like literally the same.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: But you feel much different when someone sees you in your underwear versus when they see you in your bathing suit. Because it's like the bathing suit was built to be seen.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Like it was built for a certain context. It almost feels like art with nudity or like erotic art was like built for a certain purpose. And then porn was built for a different purpose.
SARAH: Different context. Once again brings me back to BTS.
KAYLA: Classic.
SARAH: There is a video released recently where they once again put like little stickers of their like they were like rehearsing. And like I think there was a scene where like you could one of them was like in the background like and they were like changing clothes between sets. And so he like wasn't wearing a shirt. And so they like put a little sticker of their face over it so that you couldn't see it.
KAYLA: Good
SARAH: And then people were like the discourse always fucking comes up around this about like, you know, well, we saw more in whatever performance.
KAYLA: yeah
SARAH: And it's like, yeah, but they consented to that.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like there's like the reason that they use those little stickers is because we're only allowed to see what they're comfortable showing us in a certain context.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And if this is not a context where they were prepared to have
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: that scene, then they don't have to let you see shit.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But I do think you're right in that like you can kind of feel the difference in just like straight, not straight as in heterosexual, but like straightforward art versus porn. Like you can tell the difference in the purpose.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like you can just like there's a there's a certain vibe to it where you can kind of tell like this is what this was made for. And there are certainly like movies and shit where like it's supposed to be high art, but you're like this is fucking gratuitous. Like
KAYLA: yeah
SARAH: you've taken it too far. Like I can tell you're trying to make this artsy, but I can also tell that a man did this.
KAYLA: No, yeah, like I I saw the movie Babylon in theaters and it was not good. But there was so much nudity and so much sex in it to the point of like this is not.
SARAH: How is this serving the story?
KAYLA: like this isn't anything. Yeah, it wasn't.
SARAH: How is the audience watching this serving the story?
KAYLA: But like there's something also so hypocritical about it because you think about like if boobs are in a movie, it ends up being rated like PG-13, right? Even if the only nudity is a pair of tits.
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: But then you go to the fucking Met or you go to the whatever the one in Detroit is called.
SARAH: D.I.A.
KAYLA: D.I.A. And there's more than tits.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And so it's and then they're going on a field trip there. So it's like…
SARAH: I was at the D.I.A. recently and I saw tits.
KAYLA: So I just don't understand. Like I understand, but it also feels like they're just making up rules.
SARAH: Yeah, welcome to the world. Everything's made up and the points don't matter.
KAYLA: Or there's like this distinction being drawn between like, well, this is a painting, this is high art and this is a performance. So it's like whatever.
SARAH: Well, and then it's people deciding what's high art and what's low art.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And, you know, it's OK in film, but it's not OK in TV. Well, because film is seen as higher art than TV.
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: But that's kind of changing. Film’s not getting lower, but TV is getting higher.
KAYLA: Yeah. Well, you think about like like stage shows like it's
SARAH: Equis
KAYLA: Equis yes. Yeah, we're like, what's his face? Daniel Radcliffe is just like walking around naked fucking a horse or whatever.
SARAH: Guy with a horse.
KAYLA: And then isn't it like next to normal or something? There's like a full sex scene on stage or like hair. Aren't they nude for like all of hair? Like, how is that not porn?
SARAH: They're not nude for all of it. I don't think.
KAYLA: How is that?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Because it's art, I guess.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: But then you're telling me if someone made a musical porn on video, what's that then? First of all, I would like to see it.
SARAH: I would like to see it, actually.
KAYLA: Should we call up our friend? Our friend, the porn writer.
SARAH: Our friend.
KAYLA: Someone certainly has to have done that before.
SARAH: Dalton King.
(30:00)
SARAH: I recently took Dalton King to the hospital.
KAYLA: I love these hospital trips we're making.
SARAH: Dalton King is fine. For the record.
KAYLA: He's fine. We should ask him if he wants to write a musical porn.
SARAH: Musical porn. I think that'd be amazing.
KAYLA: Yeah, I think so.
SARAH: But yeah, it's always just like what the zeitgeist just saying is high art versus low art versus some somebody out there is fucking deciding and then enforcing it on the world. And that's often… someone who does not deserve that power. But alas.
KAYLA: Yeah. I'm reading, just skimming through this BBC article, it's talking about how like in porn, the two characteristics are it being sexually explicit and then it's aiming to sexually arouse the viewer. But then you come across like art through history that is doing those same things. And honestly, I feel like a lot of it, and it talks about this in this article too, comes down to like what happened when like censorship of art started happening more like in a modern sense.
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: And people just deciding like, well, these are historical paintings that we have in museums. So obviously this is fine.
SARAH: So these are fine, but going forward, this will not be fine.
KAYLA: Yeah, well, if you think about it, like how much modern art with nudity do you see in a museum?
SARAH: I don't see a lot of figure paintings and not that I'm a modern art expert. I do not claim to be.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: But of the modern art that I have seen, I feel like I don't see a lot of figure paintings or a lot of like, if… it's like more abstract. So it's
KAYLA: yeah, I mean, I feel like I see it from like artists online
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: but I'm talking on like a grand scale of like art that's being like shoved in front of the public.
SARAH: Yeah, that's being put in museums.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: absolutely.
KAYLA: Yeah, which like
SARAH: There's plenty of beautifully drawn porn online.
KAYLA: Yeah, yeah. And like it is art because someone's drawing that, but then it's like, what's the line between it being fine for a child to look at
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: and not? I don't know.
SARAH: Is the point of it to be porn or is the point of it to have some other meaning? Does art need to have meaning? We're getting deep here.
KAYLA: Who's to say?
SARAH: Who is to say? Do you have anything else to say on this topic?
KAYLA: Not really. I feel like I'm just more confused now than when we started.
SARAH: That's valid. Maybe me too.
KAYLA: I feel like I know in my heart what the difference, like if I saw something I would know.
SARAH: But that's also your perception and your Western understanding.
KAYLA: Exactly.
SARAH: You know, and you and me probably have a similar perception of what is and isn't like sexually explicit versus art porn versus porn that's just not art at all.
KAYLA: Well, that's yeah, that's just the nasty stuff that they should stop making, but
SARAH: yeah, well, and oftentimes art is art is used as an excuse for exploitation.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: Where it's like, oh, no, this is OK, because this is art. And it's like
KAYLA: yeah
SARAH: that doesn't give you an excuse to mistreat people or force them into situations where they're not comfortable or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
KAYLA: Or just like throwing extraneous like sex scenes in or things like that. It's like, yes, this movie is art. But like, what was your real intention behind putting that in there?
SARAH: Yeah. If it has a purpose, great. If it does not have a purpose, I'm going to be mad at you.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Alright, Kayla, what's our poll for this week?
KAYLA: Oh, I don't know.
SARAH: Would you watch a porn musical?
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: The thing is, is that I would.
KAYLA: I mean, I would have to.
SARAH: I would have to.
KAYLA: I would have to. There would be no… I would have to.
SARAH: I would. I would have to know exactly what I was in for going in.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And if it was going to be like pretty bad, then I would definitely. I assume I'm seeing this live. I would just get myself a seat by the door. So if necessary, I can just remove myself.
KAYLA: You need one of those things that's like the app that tells you when to go pee during the movie. You need one that tells you like when to like close your eyes.
SARAH: Yeah. And my ears.
KAYLA: Maybe we should ask.
SARAH: Ears is worse.
KAYLA: That's fair.
SARAH: I don't.
KAYLA: You don't want to hear it.
SARAH: We discussed this recently.
KAYLA: Yeah. I guess we could ask, like, what do you think the difference between porn
(35:0)
KAYLA: and nudity in art is?
SARAH: Yeah. Do you think? I mean, I'm sure there are people out there who think that there's no difference at all.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And that, you know, porn is art in the same way that Tits Out Mona Lisa is art. I don't think there exists a Tits Out Mona Lisa.
KAYLA: She doesn't have that. I'm sure there does.
SARAH: I'm sure someone has like done it.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: But I was just thinking, famous paintings that I could name. Tits Out Mona Lisa, Tits Out Girl with a Pearl Earring. Is she a minor?
KAYLA: I don't know.
SARAH: (laughing) I'm just wondering. Because if she is.
KAYLA: Never mind.
SARAH: Then it gets complicated because free the tit, but also she's a minor and people will sexualize. Anyway.
KAYLA: It's like the Romeo and Juliet movie.
SARAH: Yeah. Babies. Why they Tits Out.
KAYLA: Fucked up shit.
SARAH: Okay, great. Kayla, what's your beef and your juice this week?
KAYLA: Oh, man. Well, I have many beefs. I had to be in the hospital. Everyone has my book but me.
SARAH: l’hopital, das book
KAYLA: My period started. That sucks. Yeah. My juice is that it's almost the weekend. Oh, my other juice is I got a new shirt today. And I'm only showing Sarah.
SARAH: Your mic is in the way.
KAYLA: It says good girls, good. No, it says bad girl. No, good girls go to heaven. Bad girls go to Roku City.
SARAH: Oh, wow. That's very good.
KAYLA: It has the Roku City. It has Roku City with the robot on it.
SARAH: I like Roku City.
KAYLA: Me too. That's why I got this shirt. It's from, I think it's called like crying at the club is the person that makes it.
SARAH: Does your sweatshirt just say dork on it?
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: Good.
KAYLA: My aunt got me this from a garage sale.
SARAH: (laughing) Amazing.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Okay. Did you have a juice?
KAYLA: Yes. That was my juice.
SARAH: Oh, that was your juice. Every week this happens where I fucking forget.
KAYLA: She just doesn't listen to me.
SARAH: I do listen. It doesn't stay.
KAYLA: Oh, also beef and juice. I got my first round of like neuropsych testing today, which was exciting because it's like getting started. But also now I'm nervous that I answered the questions wrong, which is impossible because it's an evaluation of my brain.
SARAH: You can’t answer them wrong!
KAYLA: But there's things I realized I like forgot to say.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: I forgot to tell them how much I hate brushing my teeth. That would have been important for them to know.
SARAH: Yeah, that is pretty important to your character as a person.
KAYLA: I think so.
SARAH: Anyway, my beef and my juice. My beef is that my headphones are still profoundly broken and they're over a year old, so they're outside of warranty, but they're less than two years old, which is – they shouldn't break. Hello? So yeah, that's my beef. Did I have a juice?
KAYLA: I don't think you said one.
SARAH: My sister's wedding is soon.
KAYLA: I'm going.
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: I don't know what I'm going to wear yet.
SARAH: Oh my God. So my sister has this stuffed bunny that she's had since she was very, very small.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: He is an extremely fragile man because he's been through a lot.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: He is a well loved bunny and my sister wanted a tuxedo for him to wear at the wedding. And so my cousin who lives out here made it for him and I picked it up last weekend. And it is so cute.
KAYLA: It's very small.
SARAH: It's so cute.
KAYLA: Is he going to be present at the wedding?
SARAH: I don't think he's necessarily going to be like in the ceremony, but he will be there because they're taking, he's going to be in photos.
KAYLA: Yeah. That's good. Is the dog going to be at the wedding?
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: That's good.
SARAH: She's coming down the aisle with me.
KAYLA: That's very good.
SARAH: Just Rosie and Aunt Sarah
KAYLA: Good
SARAH: and also Caroline.
SARAH: You can tell us about your beef, your juice, your… cactus. On our social media, @soundsfakepod
KAYLA: What?
SARAH: I couldn't think of a single word, Kayla. My brain was fucking empty.
KAYLA: I don't know what to say to that.
SARAH: It's like, you know what? You know what just happened to me? You know how in The Good Place where Janet is malfunctioning and every time you ask for something, she just gives you a cactus?
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: That's literally what my brain just did.
KAYLA: Oh man.
SARAH: Anyway, The Good Place is such a good show.
(40:00)
SARAH: I should watch some of it, but I can't because there's so many things I want to watch. SoundsFakePod.com/book.
KAYLA: Mhm
SARAH: That is a place you can go. We also have a Patreon, patreon.com slash SoundsFakePod. We have a new $2 Patreon. It is Kelly Carmine. Thank you, Kelly.
KAYLA: Hello.
SARAH: You're so kind. Our $5 patrons who are promoting something this week are... They don't promote anything. Our $5 patrons who we are promoting this week are Byron Rusnak, Cade Archer, Changeling and Alex the ace cat, Chris Lauretano, and Colleen Walsh. Our $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are My Aunt Jeannie, who would like
to promote Christopher's Haven, Maggie Capalbo, who would like to promote the puppy Ezra Bean, Martin Chiesl, who would like to promote his podcast If Everyone's Special then No One
Is, and Mattie, who would like to promote gender euphoria. Our other $10 patrons are Arcnes, Allison, Arikay, Benjamin Ybarra, Cass, Cinnamon Toast Punch, David J, David Nurse, Derek and Karissa, Elle Bitter, JB? I'm still unclear about that. I hopefully will know by next week.
KAYLA: Who’s to say?
SARAH: Well, we might not. Nathan Lisch, Potater, Purple Hayes, Rosie Costello, Barefoot Backpacker, SongofStorm, the Steve, and Zirklteo Our $15 patrons are Andrew Hillum, who would like to promote the Invisible Spectrum Podcast, Click4Caroline, who would like to promote Ace of Hearts, Dia Chappell, who would like to promote Twitch.tv/ Melod Dia, Hector Murillo, who would like to support friends that are supportive. I always fuck this up. Promote friends that are supportive and instructive and help you grow as a better person. John Young, who would like to promote the fact that I have not messaged them again. Keziah Root, who would like to promote the fact that people will come into your life just for a small time, but right when you need them. Nathaniel White, who would like to promote NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com. Kayla’s aunt Nina, who would like to promote KateMaggartArt.com. And Sara Jones, who is @eternalloli everywhere. Our $20 patrons are Sabrina Hauck, Merry Christmas from your parents, and Dragonfly, who would like to promote gay Excel sheets. Thanks for listening. Tune in next Sunday for more rest in your ears.
KAYLA: Until then, take good care of your cactuses.
SARAH: So true.
(42:03)