Ep 221: Femcels

(00:00)

SARAH: Hey what’s up hello! Welcome to sounds fake but okay a podcast where an aroace girl, I’m Sarah that’s me 

KAYLA: (sighs) 

SARAH: (whispering) You’re doing great, sweetie. It’s bi demi. 

KAYLA: (whispering) Is it bi demi or demi bi?

SARAH: (whispering) It’s bi demisexual. It sounds better that way. 

KAYLA: (laughing) And a bi demisexual girl, that’s me Kayla

SARAH: (whispering) I’m leaving that in

KAYLA: (laughing) Sorry, I’ll redo it.

SARAH: (laughing) No, I’m leaving it in. Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don’t understand

KAYLA: On today’s episode: femcels.

SARAH AND KAYLA: Sounds fake, but okay. 

(intro music plays) 

SARAH: Welcome back to the pod!

KAYLA: (imitating alarm) Boo doop boo doop boop. Breaking news!

SARAH: What’s the news? 

KAYLA: It’s really hot in my apartment. 

SARAH: Mm. We finally turned on the AC in my apartment, which is fucking shocking

KAYLA: You’re very brave.

SARAH: That we made it this far

KAYLA: Yeah. 

SARAH: It’s only 73 out right now

KAYLA: Now I have to check my weather

SARAH: In Michigan it was like 100 degrees today, and I was like “well here it’s only 90”

KAYLA: It’s 65 here, but it’s so hot in my apartment you wouldn’t even believe it

SARAH: So that’s unfortunate. 

KAYLA: Well that’s your weather report for today.

SARAH: Yep, we’re having a heat wave here in the US of A. Not really where I am, it’s just normal hot. But elsewhere it’s hot hot. What is it in Celsius? Hot. 

KAYLA: Mhm. 

SARAH: Kayla, what are we talking about this week?

KAYLA: No, wrong. First, 

SARAH: Kayla, you’re going to say something about the responses from the poll? 

KAYLA: No, are you? 

SARAH: (sighs) There’s another housekeeping? 

KAYLA: I was just going to remind people that we’re going on break

SARAH: Oh, that’s so true

KAYLA: Is that okay with you? Is that allowed? 

SARAH: Mmm. I’ll allow it.

KAYLA: Thank you. We’re taking most of July off to work on some exciting book things and also just to have a little vacation time. 

SARAH: Yeah, I’m going to be traveling. I’m going to be in Michigan. 

KAYLA: I’m going to be in Mexico. 

SARAH: Mexico. In this economy? 

KAYLA: Yeah, somehow. 

SARAH: With this level of inflation? 

KAYLA: Somehow, yes. 

SARAH: There’s a really good joke to be made there about an inflatable in a pool

KAYLA: Mm. I think it’s definitely there.

SARAH: It’s there. It’s not honed. Someone hone it. 

KAYLA: Someone punch that up real quick. 

SARAH: Yep, please. I’m not a punch up writer so we need someone to – 

KAYLA: Mm. And I’m not a writer, she says, writing a book. Anyway.

SARAH: We didn’t need to punch up our book

KAYLA: No, it was perfect first draft.

SARAH: Perfect. We’re going to be off for a month and then we’ll come back

KAYLA: Don’t worry

SARAH: Do not worry. 

KAYLA: We’ll come back!

SARAH: Also because I mentioned it, we got fantastic replies to our poll. That’s all. Kayla, what are we talking about this week? 

KAYLA: This week, we are talking about the femcel phenomenon. 

SARAH: Phenomenomenomenon

KAYLA: I’m trying to remember what episode we did on incels. What number it was.

SARAH: Well it was an episode

KAYLA: I know but I’m trying to find… I’m looking it up

SARAH: I never know what number episodes are

KAYLA: I wonder if I look up Sounds fake Incel. Ooh. 

SARAH: Every single time that I have to post an episode –

KAYLA: 175

SARAH: Oh. Every single time that I have to post an episode, I have to look up what the last one was because I have no idea. 

KAYLA: I also do that every time.

SARAH: Yeah but at least you have a general idea

KAYLA: Yeah that’s true. 

SARAH: I have no clue. We could be at 500, we could be at 4

KAYLA: I told someone yesterday that I have a podcast. I did tell them against my will, my friend did force me to brag about myself and it was terrible. And they looked it up in front of me, horrible

SARAH: That’s –

KAYLA: It was fine, they were very nice but then they were like “oh you actually have a podcast, there’s so many episodes

SARAH: Sometimes we do get that. We’re not just saying we have a podcast, we actually have a podcast

KAYLA: We’re not some middle-aged white men, okay? We actually have a podcsat

SARAH: Who have two episodes. We have a podcast.

KAYLA: Anyway, so yeah. We talked about incels. 

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: Which is the male variety of this. 

SARAH: Well, it’s the default variety.

KAYLA: Yes, true. It is the original flavor. 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: And today we’re talking about femcels because it is truly fascinating to me.

SARAH: Yeah. Have you read this article?

KAYLA: Yeah the Atlantic one? 

SARAH: Yeah. 

(05:00)

KAYLA: Yes, I even have parts highlighted. Can you believe the level of research I did? 

SARAH: Oh that’s great because I didn’t read it and because it’s the Atlantic, it’s kind of long. 

KAYLA: It is long. It’s a good article though so most of my – here’s the thing about this episode. I don’t really have an interest in defining what an incel – femcel, like a female incel is. Like we’ll give you the definition. I’m more interested in talking about it from an aspec perspective, as we do on this podcast.

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: Like we did on the incel episode

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: So if you want a more in-depth thing, that’s really not what I’m interested in doing here, but you can read this Atlantic article which is called “What Do Female Incels really want?” by Kaitlyn Tiffany

SARAH: I don’t think Kaitlyn Tiffany is a real name. Or it’s their first name and their middle name but not their last name.

KAYLA: Well

SARAH: I think if your last name is Tiffany your first name has to be a last name, you know? 

KAYLA: That’s fair. 

SARAH: I have strong opinions on names

KAYLA: Names? I know. 

SARAH: Specifically I guess for white people because it’s less applicable depending on the culture that you’re coming from.

KAYLA: Fair. 

SARAH: But like if you have an interesting last name, you can have a plain first name, but if you have a plain last name, you cannot have a plain first name

KAYLA: Bold of you to say such a thing

SARAH: My last name is like interesting enough. It’s not Brown. 

KAYLA: I told someone your last name the other day and they were like “that’s a good one”

SARAH: I know. But like, you know what made me think of this, literally 20 minutes ago? I was trying to think of as many US Supreme Court justices as I could. Why? Don’t worry about it.

KAYLA: Mhm.

SARAH: I’m actually not sure either, but Chief Justice John Roberts, that is a horrible name. That is two boring ass names. You can’t do that.

KAYLA: It sounds like a supreme court justice name though, doesn’t it?

SARAH: Yeah. Anyway.

KAYLA: Anyway. So if you’ll remember from episode 175, or from being on the internet, an incel is a man who is involuntarily celibate and is very angry about it and typically violent if not in nature, in ideology. 

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: Against women in particular because they’ve decided it’s women’s fault they are involuntarily celibate and they do want to make women pay for it

SARAH: Yeah.

KAYLA: So that’s incels. Femcels are the female counterpart who are female and involuntarily celibate. And it’s often because – or they think it’s because they are unattractive. Their main thing is that they are ugly.

SARAH: I mean the first sentence of this article is a quote from Amanda who is 22 and from Florida who says “we were all ugly”

KAYLA: I mean… So, what’s interesting to me about this article write off the bat is that they do draw – they make the differences they see between femcels and incels pretty clear in this article

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: At least from their outside perspective. They make it clear that incels are like politically motivated, it’s very violent, it’s very outwardly angry toward women

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: And in this article they describe the femcels are more inwardly angry

SARAH: Mhm.

KAYLA: And it’s like less of a political ideology, and in this article –

SARAH: Sounds very stereotypically feminine.

KAYLA: Right

SARAH: Can only direct it inwards.

KAYLA: I don’t know – well, I kind of.. Back up.

SARAH: Backing up.

KAYLA: So in this article, they’re basically talking about different Reddit forums, and once femcels got kicked off Reddit for hate speech, other forums they now hang out in

SARAH: They got kicked off for hate speech? What were they doing?

KAYLA: Yeah well, I’ll tell you what. They’re so mad at other women.

SARAH: I was hoping it would at least be men

KAYLA: No, and so this is what’s interesting to me. From what is described in the article is that most of what these femcels are talking about is they are mostly complaining about social standards for beauty, how superficial the world is – that it’s like lookist, and they talk about something called “taking the pink pill” which is opening your eyes to the reality that society is misogynistic and lookist, which I don’t think you have to take a pill to know that, you know?

SARAH: I mean, yeah but I think we are…

(10:00)

SARAH: More aware of these sorts of things than other people personally because

KAYLA: No, no, that’s fair. And so what they spend a lot of time talking about in these forums it’s like a very “woe is me” situation of being very sad about how ugly they are. And kind of upset – one of the people interviewed for this article as very disenfranchised with like modern feminism and how it’s all about “you should think you’re pretty no matter what you look like”

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: And her reaction was basically “easy for you to say as an attractive person, that doesn’t change the way that people are seeing me”

SARAH: Mhm. Well, there’s also a difference, I think between. (thud) Sorry, I just killed a bug. There’s also a difference between – oh my god another bug. Difference between – brain finish a thought. Difference between you feeling like – what’s the word for disillusionment but trans? Dysmorphia! 

KAYLA: Yes.

SARAH: There’s a difference between feeling body dysmorphia about yourself, like you can be stereotypically the hottest person on the planet but still feel bad about your own appearance, but that is different from how other people perceive you. 

KAYLA: Right.

SARAH: Other people will probably still perceive you as very attractive, and treat you differently or treat you in a certain way because of that

KAYLA: Yes. True. 

SARAH: (laughing) Disillusioned but for trans people

KAYLA: (laughing) I mean you’re not wrong. That’s kind of the thinking around it. It’s a very – while incels I think are mostly angry…

SARAH: Mhm.

KAYLA: It seems like femcels are mostly sad.

SARAH: Mm. 

KAYLA: From what this article paints, it’s a very kind of “woe is me”, and where the hate speech comes in, I think is – they linked this old Reddit post from a currently running femcel Reddit. Yes, it’s called r/vindicta.

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: So it’s not called femcels or anything. 

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: but that’s what it is. This post is from a year ago, and it’s a moderator of this subreddit, and it starts with “this sub was founded by unattractive women. You cannot come here and shit on us. Average-looking and attractive women are allowed, but this forum isn’t for you” and it’s basically – it’s insane, the language of this post. It’s saying “average and above average women are not the main focus here, we mainly want to see ugly women become better looking, improve their social skills, gain relationships, etc. That is the purpose of this forum.” 

SARAH: So they’re angry at attractive people for being attractive but their goal is to become traditionally attractive in the same way as them?

KAYLA: Yeah so it’s very anti-standardly beautiful women. This is what’s so interesting to me is I was really hoping femcels would be anti-men. 

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: And I think some of them are. I read a different article that focused more on a couple women who are femcels who are voluntarily celibate because of past trauma. 

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: They’re just not interested in sex because they’re not interested in men. 

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: Which, I don’t think I would call those people femcels myself,

SARAH: No, I wouldn’t

KAYLA:  but that’s how they perceive themselves so whatever

SARAH: Yeah. I mean, I guess the “in” isn’t there so they’re still femcels, celibates

KAYLA: I guess, but it’s different.

SARAH: The connotation 

KAYLA: They’re doing it for different reasons, but anyway. So yes, these are people – they’re not angry at men. 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: I think they are, but it seems like a lot of it is directed at other women who they see as luckier than them or more privileged than them because of their looks. 

SARAH: So they’ve taken the pink pill, but only taken half of the pink pill. 

KAYLA: Right. And here’s my thing with this whole thing: yes, society is very looks-driven, and it is very annoying

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: But like, they even talk about it in this article.

(15:00)


KAYLA: It says  “these women are trying to figure out how to live life without the kind of romantic love our society has deemed a pillar, maybe the pillar of happiness”

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: We can relate to that, right? 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: As aspecs.

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA:  But we have chosen to work with that and figure out how to be happy without it

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: In a lot of cases. And it’s different because for us, it might be more voluntary where these are people who want it

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: but are not achieving that

SARAH: Mhm. Yeah.

KAYLA: Bruh. 

SARAH: I mean it’s all based in this cultural idea that you need to have these certain types of relationships to be happy which I think that quote from the article points that out

KAYLA: Right, and it does actively suck.

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: I’m not saying it doesn’t suck to not meet up to conventional beauty standards and not be able to get the kind of life or future that you want

SARAH: It sucks to be lonely regardless of why

KAYLA: For sure, but – and this article points this out – there is nothing radical that femcels are doing. They see – let me find the quote. “They see two main options for themselves. They either give up on love and society altogether, vowing to lie here and rot. Or they devote themselves to ascending through rigorous self-improvement and sometimes dangerous body modification,” which is kind of what the Reddit post was talking about like we’re here to improve our social skills, to look better

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: So it is basically completely buying into what they have chosen to be angry about…

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: …rather than. I don’t know. There was some quote in this article about how – oh yeah. “These spaces often become inward looking rather than imagining radical new futures.” This is someone who used to be a femcel, I think, who said that. So it’s very interesting because it’s like they’re seeing the problem and they’re going right past

SARAH: There’s seeing the problem, and instead of trying to solve the problem they’re trying to fit themselves into the worldview –

KAYLA: Yes.

SARAH: – that created the problem.

KAYLA: Right. 

SARAH: So they don’t have to face the negative consequences of the problem anymore, but they don’t get rid of the problem

KAYLA: Right, and this article – there’s another quote that says “though society is discussed as inherently lookist and unfair, femcels are not out to change it because they don’t see the idea as changeable” so they have completely gone into “okay well, it’s going to be this way so might as well buy into it”

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: Which like, I also understand that worldview of being that jaded because yeah, the world and society sucks and sometimes you do just feel like you have to play into it.

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: And there’s no way for me, one single person, to change it

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: But on a mass level, of these thousands of people on an internet forum – 

SARAH: I mean, they said before it was shut down the femcel subreddit had 25,000 members

KAYLA: Yeah. 

SARAH: And I’m sure some people were there just for shits just to be like “oh what’s going on here?” but you can’t tell me 25,000 of them were. 

KAYLA: No, yeah. For sure. So I don’t know, the whole concept, all of that, just to set up the necessary background that you need without reading this article. It’s just so interesting to me because it feels like they’re so close.

SARAH: They’re so close.

KAYLA: But like –

SARAH: But then they just go the wrong direction entirely

KAYLA: The next step, the next radical step at least, would be to say “okay, society is fucked up like this so I am not going to play into it”

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: “And I am just going to keep living my life and be happy with who I am”

SARAH: Fuck the system. 

KAYLA: Not to say that that is easy

SARAH: No. 

KAYLA: Because that could end up  making you still be lonely and unattractive to people or whatever

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: But in my mind, and I’m very privileged, this comes from me being in a relationship or having achieved what these people are wanting to achieve…

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: … it’s very privileged of me to say this, but I would rather be ugly and lonely than completely fake who I was and go through body modification or have to actively change how I act in social situations

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: Just to – 

SARAH: Not for yourself. Not because that makes you happy. 

KAYLA: No, not for myself

SARAH: Not because that’s just, you know, what you feel is right for you but because you’re doing it 

(20:00)

SARAH: for other people because you think doing that will make you less lonely because you think if you do that people will like you more.

KAYLA: Right, which is just completely perpetuating the issue that they have found

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: Which is a real issue

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: And I would be very interested to know the racial demographic of femcels

SARAH: Mm. 

KAYLA: Because it feels very white

SARAH: It does

KAYLA: Because I think incels are typically white, but we all know that whiteness is the beauty standard

SARAH: Is the beauty standard, yeah. 

KAYLA: For worse. For better, for worse. 

SARAH: (laughing) For worse. Yeah. 

KAYLA: So it would make sense to me if more women of color were femcels because they are feeling like these are bigger issues for women of color

SARAH: Yeah they don’t face the supposed white standard of beauty 

KAYLA: But like this feels like a white person thing to me

SARAH: Yeah, this just made me think of… I just saw a post on Instagram or TikTok? Eh, I think it was Instagram because I get better content on TikTok. 

KAYLA: Yeah. 

SARAH: There was an Instagram reel where it was like two people next to each other doing this challenge thing where you hold your finger – you show your side profile, and you hold your finger up against your nose so you can’t really see the shape of your nose, and then you take it off so you can see the shape of your noise and the person was like – one of them was expectation and one of them was reality. And I looked at it and I was like “what does this mean? Is one of these supposed to be better than the other?”

KAYLA: It was a bad nose and a good nose?

SARAH: They’re noses! Even too, if I was considering the stereotypical expectations of what a good nose and a bad nose is, I was like “I do not see what you’re trying to convey, like what the fuck does any of it mean?”

KAYLA: I don't know. 

SARAH: It was weird. I do find it interesting, there was this one part of the article – I’m just going to read the whole paragraph. It says “Femcels are real, and their existence has meaning. But thinking of them as a unified group with specific political goals is less useful than thinking of them as overlooked individuals who are now being swept around the web, sometimes letting their insecurities and resentments lead them into unproductive conversations. The architecture of many of the forums they’ve ended up in encourages defensiveness, border-patrolling, exclusion, even aggression. For instance, while femcel culture is not inherently transphobic, there is an ‘overlap or amenability to transphobia,’ Kay told me. Femcels, especially now, tend to find themselves on identity-based forums that are fixated on biological-essentialist ideas of gender— ‘women are like this, men are like that,’ as Kay put it, more stagnant than revolutionary. ‘These spaces do just kind of become inward-looking, very defensive, rather than about imagining radical new futures,’” Everything about this is not just pushing the agenda of heteronormativity and what women should be, but it’s also very binary and it’s saying either you’re a straight woman who is pretty or you’re a straight woman who is not, and it leaves no space for anyone to be anywhere in between woman or man or just outside of the box of definitions

KAYLA: Yeah. And also, thinking about it, like what that Reddit post said, it’s not just looking better but socializing better. 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: I have to imagine  what these people are pushing is this “idealized woman”

SARAH: Mhm.

KAYLA: Which just makes me think of like a 50s housewife. 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: It also reminds me – we talked about doing this topic a while ago, I think, and what reminded me of it was I saw someone stitched a TikTok, and it was this girl sitting there and was like “a man will never go for a girl like me who’s intelligent and likes reading” or something and someone –

SARAH: What are you, the main character in a YA book? 

KAYLA: I know, for real. But someone edited it and said “what in the femcel is this”

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: But it does put in that idea of “a man would never want a nerdy, intelligent girl like me they want someone stupid so I’m going to act stupid”. It’s just perpetuating the…

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: Stereotype of the ideal housewifey, stupid woman

SARAH: Yeah, nothing in her brain

KAYLA: Yeah. And like a very overly feminized, or feminine person as well. 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: I have to assume. 

SARAH: Yeah.

(25:00)

SARAH: And also I mean, look, as an aroace who doesn’t try and date I can’t speak to this experience, but I feel like that kind of mindset is going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy

KAYLA: Oh yeah

SARAH: If you’re out here being like “no man, woman, person is ever going to be romantically into me”, then that’s the energy you’re putting out into the world and that’s the attitude you’re putting out into the world and people are going to get that and they not going be like “oh, I really want to date this person” they’ll be more like “this person needs to maybe work on themselves”, you know?

KAYLA: Yeah, it’s very – like imagine you went up to someone like that and you were like “oh I want to take you on a date” a femcel would be like “who me? Oh, but I’m ugly” in a very main character in a YA novel

SARAH: And then you would have to reassure them

KAYLA: Yeah

SARAH: And if I were in that situation that would make me want to go out with them less because…

KAYLA: Mhm. 

SARAH: I don’t want you being like “who, me?” I don’t want to be like –

KAYLA: There’s a difference between –

SARAH: “I find you attractive” every two seconds just because

KAYLA: There’s a difference between the normal level of insecurity

SARAH: Yeah, absolutely 

KAYLA: And being a femcel

SARAH: Yeah, and a lot of it too is I think what is conveyed verbally to people

KAYLA: Yeah. 

SARAH: You know? Someone can be really insecure and you give them a compliment and you can tell they’re not used to hearing compliments but they’re still like “Oh, thanks” 

KAYLA: Yeah. 

SARAH: Or they’re like “oh I don’t know how to respond to compliments but cool” there’s a difference between being that and being like –

KAYLA: “no I’m ugly”

SARAH: Like questioning you for some reason

KAYLA: It also, the paragraph you read about kind of the inherent transphobicness of it

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: Is, I think why I’m getting such white vibes from it as well because if their agenda is to make themselves all fit into the beauty standard, and we know that the beauty standard is white, then these people are doing nothing to fix what the beauty standard is they’re just accepting…

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: Like yes the beauty standard is white, yes we see a problem with it, but I’m just going to buy into it anyway because that’s easier for me. Does that make sense?

SARAH: No, it does.

KAYLA: The vibe is just weird. And it’s not to say one person can… you know? I don’t know

SARAH: I just saw this quote from a moderator that says “reminder to femcels: people who lie to you and tell you that you look fine the way you are are not on your side. They benefit from you remaining ugly and not fixing your looks because it makes them attractive relative to you.” It’s just pitting women against women which is – I’m trying not to say what men want because that’s obviously a huge overgeneralization

KAYLA: But like, it is

SARAH: But it’s what the status quo wants

KAYLA: Yes.

SARAH: Because that’s what maintains the status quo

KAYLA: Yeah, that’s what I’m saying is it was such a shock to me to see that a lot of the hatred from femcels was pointed –

SARAH: Inward

KAYLA: – toward other women

SARAH: Or toward other women, yeah

KAYLA: I was really expecting it to be men, and I do think that that has to be a big part of it

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: But a lot of what was shown in this article – good god

SARAH: Here’s the way I think about it: if you’re a woman and you feel –

KAYLA: Name a woman. 

(laughter)

SARAH: Me. And you feel wronged by men because you think that they don’t find you attractive enough. If you let that anger out on men, what is going to happen?

KAYLA: Yeah. 

SARAH: Either nothing is going to happen or it’s going to come back to bite you and it’s going to become harm that’s somehow perpetrated onto you. If you go after other women, that’s not necessarily the result

KAYLA: Yeah, I guess it’s like the other women as your competition, almost, I guess

SARAH: Mhm. Whereas with male incels there’s the power dynamic of man versus a woman so they’re like, I don’t know “I’m going to go attack a woman on the street” whereas if a woman did that, it would be taken so, so differently.

KAYLA: Yeah. I have a paragraph I want to read you.

SARAH: Please do.

KAYLA: Here I go. “Used more airily, the term femcel still highlights certain contradictions in contemporary life. There are many people who are experiencing similar, less articulated anxiety about their place in the gender order and about the pressure 

(30:00)

KAYLA: to locate happiness through sex and romance, which they must find through success in a marketplace. The 21st century was supposed to bring a wider range of options than this, but to many, it doesn’t appear to have. There are still winners and losers, Kay argues. She also cites the feminist philosopher Amia Srinivasan’s 2018 essay on incels, ‘Does Anyone Have the Right to Sex?’ In it, Srinivasan wonders ‘how to dwell in the ambivalent place where we acknowledge that no one is obligated to desire anyone else, that no one has a right to be desired, but also that who is desired and who isn’t is a political question.’ Femcels dwell in that ambivalent space all the time. Some may risk, as they say, rotting there. But others may emerge having thought more deeply than most about alternative ways of ordering their lives, of finding happiness and dignity on their own terms.” I think that quote from that essay is so interesting.

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: I want to read that essay now. But it’s so true

SARAH: Yeah. It’s a good quote.

KAYLA: We’re not born obligated to receive sex or romance

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: Which is what incels are very known for believing

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: That they have the right to that, but it’s also very true. Who is desirable is very political, it is very entrenched in racial issues, in gender issues, in disability issues, and so it isn’t fair, but it also isn’t a right. It’s very complicated.

SARAH: Yeah. If you think about the things that are considered to be human rights, it’s like the right to live and eat and speak. The right to have sex with who you want to have sex with is not on that list, but I think often times especially with men it’s like a weird implied thing

KAYLA: Oh for sure, because your whole life you grow up being told “oh, you’re going to get married one day and have sex and have kids”

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: And if you grow up your whole life thinking that’s supposed to happen, and especially for men it’s painted like that’s supposed to be given to you

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: Then yeah, it makes sense you would grow up thinking you deserve that

SARAH: Well, and if it’s not given to you, you take it. You take someone’s virginity

KAYLA: Right. And that’s the whole complicated thing with femcels to me much more than  incels. I understand where they are coming from

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: I understand that these are real issues that every woman, especially, deals with. The beauty standard, and being held to that standard unfairly and against your will

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: But like, I don’t know. 

SARAH: Yeah it’s complicated.

KAYLA: Yeah. It’s easier said than done to be like “well, don’t wallow in self-pity. Do something about it”

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: But like, how much is there for one person to do?

SARAH: I love to wallow. 

KAYLA: I understand where the jadedness comes from

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: It’s just, on a mass level…

SARAH: Yeah

KAYLA: It’s one thing to see it in one single person but to see it in a group on mass on the Internet is bizarre

SARAH: And when those people are organizing together

KAYLA: Right.

SARAH: And sharing thoughts that maybe on the whole harming them, you know, that’s when it’s obviously much bigger than one person. And the internet is a wonderful, amazing place that can help build phenomenal communities, but it can also help build communities that perpetuate harm. Sometimes that means in the sense of like white supremacist communities, but sometimes that means more nuanced harm that’s faced more inward and that’s something we have to deal with

KAYLA: Yeah. If you think about it like “how much harm is one person going to do?” if they are just thinking about this by themselves right, they’re not talking to anyone about it

SARAH: Right

KAYLA: But if you get a group of 25,000 femcels  then obviously they’re going to start . It’s like any group

SARAH: The ideology spreads

KAYLA: Right

SARAH: Obviously any single person can have very negative impacts on their own life, I don’t want to undercut that

KAYLA: Yeah, no, that’s not what I meant

SARAH: Yeah, I know I’m just clarifying

KAYLA: When you have someone else justifying it

SARAH: Yeah

KAYLA: And saying “oh you’re right” and also “let’s take it one step further”, that’s scary

(35:00)

SARAH: And then someone who may just have some fears and some insecurities all of a sudden is like “you’re right”. It’s the fucking radicalization of everyone everywhere on the Internet

KAYLA: Yeah.

SARAH: But not in a politically radical way.

KAYLA: No, in a scary way

SARAH: Just in a culty way. Not a culty way but you know, a little culty

KAYLA: Yeah

SARAH: So in conclusion, femcels: you started going in the right direction and then fucked up.

KAYLA: What happened? Femcels I think need to spend some time talking to aspecs

SARAH: Well as I was –

KAYLA: They would benefit a lot from it

SARAH: They would. I was thinking about the gender aspect of it. I was like well what about people who feel they’re involuntarily celibate and nonbinary or genderqueer, and then I was like there are probably very, very few of those people because people who identify as gender non-conforming are more likely to be better educated on how fucked everything is, right? 

KAYLA: Yes

SARAH: And so they’re less likely to turn to “I want to conform” as a way of fixing it than to say no, fuck the system

KAYLA: Yeah. I can’t imagine a gender non-conforming person falling into this kind of thing. And like I’m sure there are, it’s a big world out there

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: But you’re right, the femcel logic is to completely conform because “oh there’s no way I could change it” where the general culture around being gender non-conforming is “I do not care, goodbye”

SARAH: Exactly. And I’m thinking about trans femcels or even trans incels just seems unlikely

KAYLA: Yeah.

SARAH: Just because of the kind of experiences you have to have. Like, as a trans woman, you may feel at times ugly or unwanted but it seems so unlikely to me that you’re going to turn that on other women

KAYLA: No, yeah. I can’t imagine. I’m sure it’s out there, but…

SARAH: Yeah, certainly. Alright. Well, that was femcels. What’s our poll for this week? 

KAYLA: Oh man. I don’t know. Femcels: thoughts?

SARAH: Femcels. 

KAYLA: Why? Last week I turned one of our polls into a reel. I am not going to do that this week because I am afraid of what will come for me

SARAH: Mm. Femcels.

KAYLA: Discuss

SARAH: Can they be reformed? I think so. 

KAYLA: We can fix that. I can fix her.

SARAH: I alone can fix it

KAYLA: I can fix her. They’re going to hate this. I hope they don’t find this. 

SARAH: The femcels? 

KAYLA: Yeah

SARAH: I hope they find this so that they listen to our podcast

KAYLA: They would hate us

SARAH: It might open their minds 

KAYLA: We’re attractive is the problem though Sarah, and they don’t like attractive people. 

SARAH: This is an audio medium

KAYLA: They’ll find us

SARAH: I know, but don’t tell them

(laughter)

SARAH: (laughing) Make them figure it out themselves

KAYLA: Kay sorry, we’re like you. We’re so ugly. Sorry. 

SARAH: Also, what even is ugly? LIke what the fuck does that even mean? Anyway. 

KAYLA: Next week’s episode!

SARAH: Last week we defined hot, sexy, whatever. Next week

KAYLA: Ugly

SARAH: Next week we define ugly, hideous

(laughter)

SARAH: That’s actually not true we already know what next week’s episode is going to be.

KAYLA: Psh, yeah. Gottem

SARAH: For a second I thought you were silent because you were trying to remember what it was. 

KAYLA: No, next week’s episode is silence

SARAH: (laughing) Yeah, a lot of silence. We’re like starting the summer break early but still releasing a podcast. So we’ll just be silence for 45 minutes

KAYLA: Honestly, yeah.

SARAH: Anyway, we’ll have a poll. Kayla, tell us about your beef. What’s your beef and your juice this week? That’s the next line

KAYLA: That’s such a good question. My beef is that I have a lot of things going on

SARAH: (quietly) I thought you were going to say tonsil stones

KAYLA: Well, yeah. I have a lot of things going on medically with my mouth right now. 

SARAH: I just thought of my own beef

KAYLA: It’s fine. I had a tonsil stone issue this week. You can look that up yourself at your own risk, it’s kind of gross. I did go into detail with Sarah 

SARAH: (whispering) Why did I bring up the tonsil stones?

KAYLA: I was saying it anyway. It didn’t matter that you reminded me. Anyway, that’s my beef.

(40:00)

SARAH: (laughing) Nothing matters. There’s nothing a single person can do. 

KAYLA: (laughing) Oh my god. Okay, femcel. 

SARAH: (laughing) I would say that I’m voluntarily celibate, personally.

KAYLA: I would also say that. Or is it involuntary? Because you didn’t choose to be sex averse. Anyway. 

SARAH: Wow. Wow. 

KAYLA: Think about that one

SARAH: That’s something to think about

KAYLA: That’s something for you to think about during the break. My juice is that I’ve still been doing my pole dancing classes, and I –

SARAH: Hold on, does that mean you can be involuntarily incelibate? Uncelibate? Non-celibate? Involuntarily non-celibate?

KAYLA: Yeah it’s like a sex addict. 

SARAH: Yeah. Like involuntarily –

KAYLA: Not celibate. You must have sex.

SARAH: Like you made the choice. This isn’t a sexual assault situation. This is you made the choice but you it wasn’t choice you wanted so much, you know what I mean?

KAYLA: Yes, like a sex addiction. Yeah. 

SARAH: Anyway, pole dancing.

KAYLA: Yeah, I’ve still been doing it and this week I can now climb all the way up the pole

SARAH: She’s a little monkey

KAYLA: And from the top of the poll, I hung upside down

SARAH: She’s a stinky little monkey

KAYLA: With only my legs holding me up, can you believe it?

SARAH: She’s a stinky little monkey with strong legs

KAYLA: I am stinky, I need to shower so bad

SARAH: Your legs are stronger than mine. You would always – 

KAYLA: I know, they always have been

SARAH: I think you’re just better at using them

KAYLA: Yeah

SARAH: I don’t know that your legs are actually stronger than mine

KAYLA: I’m agile

SARAH: Yeah

KAYLA: I’m scrappy 

SARAH: Oh she’s scrappy

KAYLA: Oh she’s scrappy

SARAH: My juice is BTS. My beef is –

KAYLA: I’m shocked

SARAH: My beef is how before this podcast Kayla was telling me about her tonsil stones, and I didn’t like it at all. I was trying to eat my Funyuns

KAYLA: I’ll tell you what. My friend Laura is like me and is also mentally ill in the way of skin-picking

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: And compulsive issues

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: And so I sent her many pictures of the inside of my mouth and my tonsil stones, and she was eating it up

SARAH: I’m glad you have someone to share that with

KAYLA: She could not get enough. Me too. It was great.

SARAH: But it’s not me

KAYLA: It’s not you, but I did it anyway

SARAH: There are some things that I like that other people think is gross. Like a good pimple popping video? Great. I draw the line at details about tonsil stones

KAYLA: Well, too bad.

SARAH: It’s like how, you know with pimple popping videos there’s a certain line where like “ugh I don’t like that anymore”

KAYLA: Yes

SARAH: Yeah. Anyway

KAYLA: Too bad

SARAH: You can answer our poll, tell us about your beef, your juice. Do not tell us about your tonsil stones

KAYLA: You can tell me

SARAH: If you would like to tell us about your tonsil stones, @kayla_cas, okay? Not to @soundsfakepod because there’s a chance I’ll see that, okay?

KAYLA: Nah I usually see our messages first anyway, so it’s fine

SARAH: Yeah but the chance is there, and I don’t want to risk it.

KAYLA: Okay, that’s fair

SARAH: I don’t want to risk it for the biscuit. Yeah it’s soundsfakepod on the places. Instagram, also Patreon. If you want to give us money, give us money so we stop talking about tonsil stones. You can do that on patreon.com/soundsfakepod. Our $2 patron who are promoting us – no, supporting us. I guess they’re promoting us. No, we’re promoting them. Anyway, it’s AJ Bissinger, Alexandra Alvarez, Angela Matijczak – wait, we don’t say the $2 patrons. Except when they’re new

KAYLA: Yes.

SARAH: Guys. I was like “I’m not used to reading these names.” Well congrats to you three because I read your names. Let me read two other names randomly. Morgan and Steve.

KAYLA: (laughing) Uh huh. Thank you.

SARAH: Our $5 patrons who we are promoting this week are Sam, Savannah Cozart, Scott Ainslie, and Sofia P. Our $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are David Nurse who is promoting… real stones, in the London Underground. With David I always just bring it back to the London Underground. The tube, if you will. Derek and Carissa who would like to promote the overthrow of heteronormativity and if you’re taking the pink pill, take the whole thing

KAYLA: Mhm.

SARAH: Make sure the whole thing is pink. Make sure it’s not half pink half blue, you know? 

KAYLA: Yes.

SARAH: Make sure it’s a fully pink pill. And that’s what Melody the Hamster, who is also a doctor suggests

KAYLA: Oh, a promotion.

SARAH: CinnamonToastPunch would like to promote rainy walks with friends and splashing in puddles, and my Aunt Jeannie who would like to promote Christopher’s Haven. Our other $5 patrons are Maggie Capalbo, Martin Chiesl, Mattie, Potater, Purple Hayes, Rosie Costello, Barefoot Backpacker, The Steve, Arcnes, Ari K, Benjamin Ybarra, Changeling and Alex the ace cat, and David Jay. Our $15 patrons are Andrew Hillum who would like to promote The Invisible Spectrum podcast, Click4Caroline who would like to promote Ace of Hearts, Dia Chappell who would like to promote Twitch.tv/MelodyDia, Hector Murillo who would like to promote friends that are supportive, constructive, and help you grow as a better person by giving you feedback to stop bringing up tonsil stones

KAYLA: I won’t

SARAH: We have a new $15 patron! It’s Keziah Root. This person didn’t tell us what they want to promote, but they did tell us it’s their birthday to themselves that they became a patron which is super sweet

KAYLA: (gasps) Happy birthday!

SARAH: I’m going to promote for them that it’s their birthday

KAYLA: That’s such a nice thing

SARAH: I know!

KAYLA: They gave us a gift for their birthday

SARAH: I know!

KAYLA: That’s so nice. You didn’t have to do that.

SARAH: Yeah, I know! So if you’d like to promote something else in the future, do shoot us a message. If not, we will continue to promote your birthday 52 weeks out of the year. I guess not 52 because we have break sometimes

KAYLA: Sometimes we must go on vacation, you understand

SARAH: 42. Nathaniel White who would like to promote NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com, Kayla’s Aunt Nina who would like to promote @katemaggart.art, and Sara Jones who is @eternalloli everywhere. Our $20 patrons are Sabrina Hauck Merry Christmas 52 weeks out of the year/42. And Dragonfly who would like to promote erasing the concept of tonsil stones from your mind. 

KAYLA: At this point, you have talked about it more than me

SARAH: I know, this is why I want it to be erased

KAYLA: Okay

SARAH: Because it’s just – 

KAYLA: It starts with you

SARAH: (hyperventilating) Thanks for listening, tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.

KAYLA: And until next time, don’t have a cow that has tonsil stones. 

SARAH: Why?

KAYLA: Bye!

SARAH: I hated that.

(47:18) 

Sounds Fake But Okay