Ep 303: Rating Historic Dating Customs
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SARAH: Hey, what's up? Hello! Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl, I'm Sarah that's me.
KAYLA: And a bi demisexual girl, that's me Kayla.
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.
KAYLA: On today's episode, Ancient Dating Rituals.
BOTH: Sounds Fake But Okay.
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod.
KAYLA: Hi.
SARAH: Hi everyone. How are you?
KAYLA: My internet keeps being weird.
SARAH: Silly, silly. I hope everyone is having a good time.
KAYLA: Me as well.
SARAH: Better than my car's windshield. We'll get there. That's just a teaser.
KAYLA: Oh, got to stay till the end. I have deja vu of another time where you teased your car problems at the beginning for your beef and we were like, stay to the end.
SARAH: Yeah. I tweeted about it on my stan Twitter and one of my moots was like, “you have the worst car luck.” And I was like, “do I?”
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: I was like, “well, okay, I had that thing, but that was kind of my fault.” And then I was like, “oh, right, replacing all of my tires.”
KAYLA: That'll do it.
SARAH: Multiple times. Anyway.
KAYLA: That will do it.
SARAH: Do we have any housekeeping?
KAYLA: No.
SARAH: Great. Kayla, what are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: This week, I thought we would take a look into the past and see what dating used to be like in ancient times.
SARAH: Yes, indeed. When you suggested this, I haven't actually looked into it. Kayla sent me a bunch of articles. I haven't actually looked at them.
KAYLA: I scanned them all, you know?
SARAH: Yeah. I haven't actually looked at them, but I assume that the old dating rituals are being a peacock, literally, like giving your local woman a peacock.
KAYLA: What the fuck are you saying? What the fuck are you saying right now?
SARAH: Okay. Well, you know how peacocks do their peacock thing to get the girl?
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: I imagine that these rituals are like human people collecting peacocks to give to their girl. That's what I think this is about.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: Let's begin.
KAYLA: Okay. It's not that.
SARAH: Too bad
KAYLA: I also just had to download one of the articles I was looking at because the ad pop-ups were so bad…
SARAH: Oh, no
KAYLA: That I was like, “I can't even focus on reading this.”
SARAH: Oh no.
KAYLA: So, this first article is from ancient-origins.net, so it has a lot of ads, so take it all with a grain of salt, I guess. It seems pretty chill to me.
SARAH: I'll open it and let's see if I can tolerate it. A man-eating hog?
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: It was just recommended under viral articles.
KAYLA: So, this one goes chronologically about some just like dating and courtship rituals over the eras, the time, the ages.
SARAH: Time. Space-time?
KAYLA: The space-time continuum. It starts with the history of forced coupling. I'm going to skip that one. I'm not really interested in discussing that one.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And I don't mean like arranged marriages. Anyway.
SARAH: Yeah. Middle Ages?
KAYLA: We will start in the Middle Ages. So, here's our first ancient dating ritual is that in the Middle Ages, jousting was the big to-do. You would have your festivals and fairs for the kings and then the poor people would also get to be there and the knights would fight.
SARAH: Very, very kind to the poor people to allow them to be entertained.
KAYLA: Allow them. Like, I'm guessing it's pure entertainment. I guess I don't know what the real use of these types of events were, like when knights would do this.
SARAH: Were there consequences?
KAYLA: That's my thing. Okay, and this was a fiction book, but I read Gwen and Art Are Not in Love, which is like a queer retelling of Arthurian time vibes, whatever, and a big part of the book is one of the main women characters is a female knight and she goes around and does these tournaments and it's a big thing. So, I don't… it's like ancient NFL players, question mark? I’m not an historian
SARAH: It's like ancient medieval times.
KAYLA: Ah, now we're cooking. Anyway, all that to say, a lot of jousting happened and a knight could dedicate his match to the woman he loved. Thoughts?
SARAH: I think it would be more impressive if it was a joust to the death.
KAYLA: I mean, they often were, I think.
SARAH: But was it always?
KAYLA: No, I mean, I don't think so.
SARAH: I think it's more impressive if they're like, “I will die for you, woman,” but for no reason.
KAYLA: Yeah, I mean, I think it could be a fun, like, if he did it publicly, it could be like, “oh my God, my man is saying like in front of everyone that he loves me.” And I think that could be like a cute little thing.
SARAH: That's nice.
KAYLA: That's nice. I will say once we were bowling and Dean dedicated his bowl to me and then it was a gutter ball.
SARAH: How did that make you feel?
KAYLA: Not good. And then one of my many girlfriends, she was like, “I'm going to dedicate this to you.” And then I think she got a spare and one of my other many girlfriends was like, “I'll dedicate this to you,” and she got a strike. So, she was…
SARAH: Wow
KAYLA: On the top of the girlfriend pyramid that day.
SARAH: Amazing.
KAYLA: Anyway, I think that one is fun.
SARAH: Did you say that he would tie something that belonged to the woman…
KAYLA: Okay, yes
SARAH: For example, a handkerchief
KAYLA: I did not say that.
SARAH: On the sleeve of his shirt as to display loyalty?
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: Blah, blah, blah
KAYLA: I guess there's some arguments that that is where like wearing your heart on your sleeve comes from.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Some people claim.
SARAH: Some people claim. Many modern courtship rituals originated in the medieval concept of chivalry.
KAYLA: Yes. I feel like this was a big time for chivalry.
SARAH: I mean, yes. Isn't that like where it comes from?
KAYLA: I think so.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Where it was like… I think it was very like kind of over the top. Like… I feel like there's a lot of parodies of this now when you if you were to watch
SARAH: Clip clop, clip clop.
KAYLA: Yes. A Monty Python. I think that's like a big like Monty Python of the Holy Grail is a big like parody of this time where you feel like all these women who are supposed to be doing chastity and then like they're very clearly not into being chaste or you have like these big like love professions or whatever. I think that is like this time was known for a lot of like over the top flowery things.
SARAH: Sorry. I just read onto the next one and I'm just…
KAYLA: Oh, yeah. So, here's… So, those rituals I guess in a way have gone on just kind of like those like open declarations of things or like chivalry I think has made it to this time period. But another thing that they would do in medieval England is women would soak an apple in their sweat and offer the fruit to the man they desired. And if the man were to consume the apple he would be exposed to the woman's scent. And this allegedly lasted until the Elizabethan era and then Austria was recorded to be practiced as late as the 19th century which is…
SARAH: But they wouldn't do a whole apple they would just do a slice of apple.
KAYLA: Ah, yes. Yes. You did read on this, so, true. The apple slices would be placed in the woman's underarms during balls. And then at the end of the ball the apple slices would be offered to the woman's partner.
SARAH: Okay [foreign language] Listen to this podcast. Really good English by me.
KAYLA: That was German.
SARAH: Yes. But then I started speaking English.
KAYLA: Why are you doing that?
SARAH: I'm speaking to the Austrians. I'm asking them.
KAYLA: Oh, I see. Oh, I see. Okay.
SARAH: Okay, ich hab eine Frage für die Österreichischer, die…. listen to this podcast. Really good Denglisch by me.
KAYLA: I would love to hear an Austrian's take on this.
SARAH: Habt ihr eine Idee, fuckin’ warum? Ist das wahr? Passierte das in den 19. Jahrhundert? Echt? Ich hab Fragen. Danke schön.
KAYLA: To our transcriber, you can just… don't worry about that. I'll make Sarah transcribe this part. Like don't worry yourself with all that.
SARAH: Don't worry yourself.
KAYLA: Unless you speak German and I don't know about it. But I don't know.
SARAH: Anyway, that was my broken German. I have questions.
KAYLA: Yeah, I think I don't like this one.
SARAH: Me neither.
KAYLA: I'll go right out and say it. I do feel like though like obviously the soaking in sweat thing has not carried on but I do feel like the like this pheromone vibe is still very present today.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Have you, speaking of, were we talking about this? That women were using their coochie juice as like perfume to do their pheromones?
SARAH: Their coochie juice?
KAYLA: They were like putting it on like their neck and their wrists like you're supposed to put perfume there and they were like, “oh, my pheromones.”
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SARAH: How were they collecting the coochie juice?
KAYLA: I mean I don't… juice is maybe like too strong a word.
SARAH: Yeah, but were they just like sticking some fingers up there and then being like, “all right.”
KAYLA: That is what I'm assuming. I mean that seems the most efficient way to me.
SARAH: I hate it.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: You know when Ms. Goop herself made that fucking candle that smelled like her coochie? Do you think that like she had people like just smell it a lot and like make sure?
KAYLA: No, because I… I don't think, I think… no, because I think she just picked a random scent. I think…
SARAH: I'm calling up Chris Martin and asking him
KAYLA: Who's that?
SARAH: The lead singer of Coldplay.
KAYLA: Why would he know about that?
SARAH: Because they used to be married.
KAYLA: Oh, okay so you think he should smell the candle and be…
SARAH: And let everyone know
KAYLA: Like, “yes, it is what her coochie smelled like.”
SARAH: Yeah. I'm sure their daughter would love that to have her parents… I mean poor thing's name is Apple, so.
KAYLA: First of all, kid's name is Apple, second of all the candle is already out there so I feel like…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: You know, how much worse is it really for your father to confirm or deny?
SARAH: That's fair.
KAYLA: I feel like that could almost help maybe.
SARAH: Yeah. We are Chris Martin stans in this house.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: Just so you know.
KAYLA: Thank you.
SARAH: His time watching over Wootteo is almost over.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: Anyway. Next?
KAYLA: Our next ritual is one also from medieval times I think it is from China.
SARAH: Mm-hmm.
KAYLA: Okay, I’ll just read…
SARAH: The Dai people who inhabit the southwestern part of the country so like more in the direction of Tibet. I'm giving you geographical background.
KAYLA: Thank you. Closer to Tibet. People continue to practice courtship rituals passed down by their ancestors. For example, single men and women from the village would gather at night around a bonfire, the women would wear billowing skirts and turn their spinning wheels and the men would be draped in red blankets and would begin to circle the group of women serenading them with various musical instruments and if a man liked a particular woman he would approach her directly and if a woman was interested in the man she could offer him a stool to sit on and then the men would drape their dates in their blankets and they would do a little chit chat.
SARAH: I think that's nice. That's cute.
KAYLA: I like that one. That's sweet.
SARAH: Because the man has… what's it called? He can do things of his own volition but so can the woman.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: Like they both have control over the situation. Autonomy. This is Sarah from the future. I was trying to say autonomy. Just needed to know that. Thank you.
KAYLA: Yes. They can each make like the first move.
SARAH: Yeah. That's good. And if a man comes up to you and you don't want to give him a stool you kick him in the balls.
KAYLA: Exactly. Let's move on to Victorian times.
SARAH: Oh.
KAYLA: I'm on a different article now. That article is finished.
SARAH: Which article? I want to look at it.
KAYLA: And now we're on ThoughtCo.com.
SARAH: Okay.
KAYLA: Okay. So, now in the Victorian area. I did not mean to do that. Here in the Victorian area, yes, romantic love is now the primary requirement for marriage. So, we're moving beyond this is for land and such but I also feel like Victorian era was still very much so like a political vibe.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Like I don't think it's…
SARAH: Well and the… being with someone because you love them was really only for the upper class.
KAYLA: Oh yeah one thousand percent, but even then like…
SARAH: You still had to make a favorable match.
KAYLA: Yes, you couldn't like take Bridgerton for example like the one Bridgerton girl Eloise can't go dating the newspaper boy, you know? So, it's like yes but also like not really. So, anyway, courting became very formal especially in the upper classes so an interested gentleman can't just walk up to a lady and talk. So…
SARAH: No, no, no, no, no, impropriety.
KAYLA: No, yes, very yucky. They had to be formally introduced and then they could escort the lady home, the man could escort the lady home if she agreed. So, what would happen apparently is that like you're at a public event and if you wanted to take a lady home you'd say here's my card and at the end of the event the lady would look at all of her cards and would decide which man she wanted to walk her home and then she would give that man her card and then they would get to be escorted home together.
SARAH: And so that's the equivalent of giving someone your snapchat.
KAYLA: Uh, no
SARAH: Okay.
KAYLA: Yeah, no
SARAH: I jumped ahead to the Nordic countries where they have courtship customs involving knives
KAYLA: Yes, much more fun.
SARAH: In Finland when a girl came of age her father let it be known that she was available for marriage, the girl would wear an empty sheath attached to her girdle if a suitor liked the girl he would put a Polko knife in the sheath which the girl would keep if she was interested in him. I think this is great because you could just collect knives.
KAYLA: Okay. Here's what I'll say about this one. I love the knives aspect. I think that's fine. What I don't necessarily love is like the sheath and knife imagery.
SARAH: Yeah, also, when it says that it's attached to her girdle in what way is it attached to her girdle?
KAYLA: What's a girdle again? Is that the like…
SARAH: It's like around your like lower torso
KAYLA: Right, so, it's like a like a corset but for like the lower part right?
SARAH: Yeah, so it's like…
KAYLA: Yeah, in what way?
SARAH: Is it just like on the outside of the girdle or is it like a he's got to feel her up to stick a knife in her, you know?
KAYLA: My guess would be it's like one of those things where it's kind of like hanging at your hip at least I would hope
SARAH: That's what I'm hoping
KAYLA: Anyway
SARAH: But I do like this because then you can just collect knives
KAYLA: I mean, I do…
SARAH: Do you think they ever go full peacock and they're like, “I'm going to give you a really fancy knife because I like you a lot”
KAYLA: I mean, I think that would make a lot of sense. Okay, the next one I don't remember why but I've heard of and it's called Bundling. I don't know if like I read some like period piece book or something that had this, I wonder if… I don't know, I feel like a Jane Austen book might have this or something, but anyway. Found in the 16th and 17th century in Europe and America we have bundling which allows a courting couple to share a bed fully clothed with a bundling board between them or bolster cover tied over the girl's leg, the idea was to allow the couple to talk and get to know each other but in a safe and warm place in the girl's house. I don't get the point of this
SARAH: It's so that you can have the intimacy of sharing a bed without the fear of sex
KAYLA: But like do you need the intimacy of bed, you know?
SARAH: I don’t know
KAYLA: Like are the conversations that different that you would have in this situation versus like walking around with someone?
SARAH: Girl, you fucking tell me, I don't know
KAYLA: I really couldn't… it just seems like a lot of trouble, you know what I mean?
SARAH: Yeah, it does
KAYLA: But it's like maybe it's a thing of like, “we know these kids want to be in bed together, so, we'll meet him halfway and we'll let them do it but with a bunch of pillows stacked between them”
SARAH: And board
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: In 17th century Wales, ornately carved spoons known as ‘love spoons’ potentially made from a single piece of wood by a suitor to show his affection to his loved ones, that's fun
KAYLA: I like that one
SARAH: Give me spoon
KAYLA: I'll take a spoon
SARAH: Chivalrous gentlemen in England often send a pair of gloves to their true loves, if the woman wore the gloves to church on Sundays, it signaled her acceptance of the proposal, so like a marriage proposal or just like a…
KAYLA: Like courting
SARAH: A courting proposal
KAYLA: See, but this one I like. I feel like this one is like high drama because you're this man and you're all nervous, you are like, “oh my God, I’m going to send these gloves to this lady” and then you have to like wait till Sunday and then you show up in church and you're sweating anyway because it's the old times
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: And then you're just like looking around. And then imagine she doesn't wear them and then you have to like sit through the rest of church just like devastated
SARAH: Or imagine two rival bros both sent her gloves the same week and the entire town is like, “holy shit, whose gloves are she going to wear?” And maybe it's the winter time and so like on the way into church still has her hands in one of those like weird…
KAYLA: Muff?
SARAH: A muff thing, and so no one can see until she gets into the church and takes it off and everyone is like, “which gloves is she wearing?”
KAYLA: I love this
SARAH: Imagine she wears one of each
KAYLA: I was… okay, the funniest thing she could do is either wear one of each or none
SARAH: Or none
KAYLA: Those are the only options. I feel like this is what we need to get back to because you know this is delayed gratification you can't just send a you up text and hear back immediately, you have to wait until Sunday Church
SARAH: Yep
KAYLA: Playing the long game
SARAH: And don't be cheating delivering it on Saturday night
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KAYLA: No, no, no, because that's like…. Okay, here's the thing, if I were to receive gloves on the Saturday night, I would be like oh this guy got cold feet, he was really thinking about not doing this
SARAH: Mm
KAYLA: But at the last minute was like, “I got to get them in before Sunday”
SARAH: Yeah, unless it was like…
KAYLA: I don’t like that
SARAH: Unless it was like, “these are custom-made gloves and they weren't done until today” but even in that case I might be like, “hey, maybe just wait till Monday so that it doesn't seem like you're rushed” like maybe you're really eager, I don’t know
KAYLA: But also, maybe she has like a lot of gloves so he's like, “I have to get mine into contention or she might choose someone else’s” yeah
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Anyway.
SARAH: And some parts of 18th century Europe, a biscuit or small loaf of bread was broken under the head of a bride as she emerged from the church, unmarried guests scrambled for the pieces which they then placed under their pillows to bring dreams of the one they would someday marry, this custom is believed to be the precursor of the wedding cake
KAYLA: I have never heard of this
SARAH: Me neither
KAYLA: And I don't think I like it
SARAH: I'm sorry to hear that
KAYLA: I mean, it… I mean it reminds me a lot of like the bouquet or the garter thing
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: At current American weddings
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Where it's like, “oh, if I catch this I get to be married next.” Which is like…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: A fun little game but also like…
SARAH: I also strongly dislike the scrambling for the pieces
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Oh, but the one thing that is interesting is it says, ‘unmarried guests’
KAYLA: Oh, so…
SARAH: It doesn't specify that it's just women.
KAYLA: See, I do like that
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Because I feel like nowadays it's always like, “oh, these women want to be getting married”
SARAH: Yeah, guess what? We have finally got to one that's not European
KAYLA: Thank God. I have been thinking about this the whole time of like, I really tried finding as many articles as I could but there were not as many as you'd expect
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And they've been so, so, white
SARAH: They've been so, so, European. Like I… Aside from that one in China like I'm sure there are a lot of like robust Asian like traditions…
KAYLA: I’m sure, yeah
SARAH: But they're hard to fucking find for us English speakers
KAYLA: On my American internet
SARAH: Okay, so this one is, many cultures throughout the world recognize the idea of matrimony as the ties that bind, in some African cultures long grasses are braided together and used to tie the hands of the groom and bride together to symbolize their union, a delicate twine is used in the Hindu Vedic wedding ceremony to bind one of the bride's hands to the hands of the groom, in Mexico the practice of having a ceremonial rope loosely placed around both of the necks of the bride and groom to bind them together is common. I want to say that this is done in like Gaelic tradition as well
KAYLA: Oh, that would make sense, they like a knot from what I understand
SARAH: They love a knot
KAYLA: But this is I think still like…
SARAH: People should do this
KAYLA: Yeah, I've definitely seen this in a modern wedding, I like this one
SARAH: Yeah, a cultic love knot, you can incorporate it in your wedding
KAYLA: Yes, the only one I don't love is the around the neck, that just feels like…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like, I've seen it or… But like the way it's described. Like, but I've seen like, I don't know combined shawls or like larger
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: Things draped around both necks and…
SARAH: And it says they're loosely placed
KAYLA: I know, it's just the way it's written and I don't like. Like I've seen it and it doesn't look weird or scary but like I think I've described it better
SARAH: I think calling it ceremonial rope also I think maybe…
KAYLA: Not my favorite, I feel like we could have… there had to have better…
SARAH: There’s another term we could have used
KAYLA: Way
SARAH: Yeah. All right, what's next?
KAYLA: Well, the other article I found is very American, so, I don't know what your thoughts are on that
SARAH: What do you mean dating was frowned upon for a while in the 1900s? Just before the turn of the century the term ‘date’ as it's known today was first coined according to the New York Post in 19… nope in 1896, George Odey, who was a writer for the Chicago Record wrote about a young woman filling up the dates in her calendar with outings with young men after that women dating eligible bachelors became increasingly common however in the 1900s there was a little bit of an adjustment period a society as a whole got used to the fact that a woman could be out alone with a man and not be a prostitute
KAYLA: Yeah. It makes me wonder like when exactly that happened because you go from like strict courtship times where there has to be a chaperone at all times.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: So, like how did that switch happen? Did people slowly just like get more lax of like…
SARAH: I presume, yeah. According to the book Labor of Love: The Invention of Dating by Moira Weigel, single women going out on dates at the time caught the attention of law enforcement and not in a good way. In the eyes of authorities, Weigel wrote according to New York Post women making a date seems the same as turning a trick, a woman living it up was an odd thing back in the day but fortunately times have changed
KAYLA: That’s so wild
SARAH: Thank to thelist.com
KAYLA: Thank you so much thelist.com
SARAH: And then it says so during the ‘20s it got bigger also because like it was prohibition so when it's… when it's off limits it's like, “ooh, that sounds fun,” and so people would go to like underground speakeasies blah blah blah they were apparently super romantic and they made a great place where couples could get together and have some fun. Additionally, the number of people who owned a car dramatically increased in the 1920s meaning that young couples could hit the road for night on the town and take their date somewhere new or just go for a nice drive enjoy the scenery, you could get yourself away from potential chaperones essentially
KAYLA: That makes sense
SARAH: Interesting. Okay, but this is interesting how after World War II marriage became… like people started getting married younger
KAYLA: Uh-huh
SARAH: Because ‘women became less concerned with a man's status and more interested in his likelihood of survival’
KAYLA: Well…
SARAH: Marriage also experienced a revival and was subsequently reabsorbed into youth culture, marriage rates rose and average ages of married couples declined
KAYLA: What year was this?
SARAH: In the ‘40s and ‘50s. This was true for most of the 1950s, by 1959 almost half of all women were married by age 19
KAYLA: I don't like it
SARAH: They wanted to make sure that their relationship would last after the war so they wanted a husband who was strong and could provide. Not this thing, dating in the 2000s saw the invention of talking
KAYLA: Oh, no, that makes me sad
SARAH: Anyway
KAYLA: Okay, here are some rituals from… um, Okay Cupid
SARAH: Okay Cupid
KAYLA: This one is bad, during Lupercalia, an ancient Roman festival during the first century, Romans would sacrifice a dog and a goat and then hit the women with the hides and the women willingly lined up believing this would boost fertility
SARAH: Hmm
KAYLA: No, thank you. In 18th century New England, couples used a courting stick, a six-foot long hollow tube that allowed them to privately exchange romantic whispers while in the presence of family members
SARAH: Oh
KAYLA: So, they're just doing a little telephone game
SARAH: Just a little game of telephone. I found an article about like love rituals across Asia but they're all like modern, I don't know how much is actually based in like old stuff
KAYLA: Yeah. I tried to look up like dating customs around the world and it was all just like current stuff
SARAH: Yeah. Okay, this is interesting, so this is about a Chinese dating culture in ancient China
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: Rarely had anything to do with love, the proper marrying age for Chinese men was around 20 while the coming of age for women to be suitable for marriage is 16, they were more of a business partnership to connect two families, the long-standing dating culture in China is the… I'm going to butcher this because I don't know how to read tones, the ‘San Shu Liu Li,’ that translates to the three letters and the six etiquettes, this tradition has existed since 1046 BC to 771 BC and serves as a guideline on the etiquette of dating Chinese women. They've also relied heavily on matchmakers, the tradition consists of two parts; the letters and etiquette. So, first we have a betrothed letter
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: So, he gives it to the bride's family to express his intention to marry the bride and as an official mark for their engagement, a gift letter then is once the engagement is official the soon to be wed couple will be writing the gifts they want for their wedding and give to their families. So, it's basically like their registry
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: And then you have the wedding letter which is… the groom presents it to the bride's parents to officially commemorate the bride acceptance into the groom's family circle, you have to do them in order otherwise…
KAYLA: Yeah, I feel like…
SARAH: Without them the marriage between the man and woman would be meaningless. Then you have the six etiquettes, you have their proposal, you have birthday matching, you have to make sure that you're compatible, you have betrothal gifts, there's… the bride's parents are given betrothal gifts and the betrothal letter from the groom parents, they exchange two silver coins and the letter. Oh, the coin with the Chinese character ‘que chu,’ I don't know, meaning proposal would come from the groom's side. The bride's family would then send another silver coin with the Chinese character ‘Yun’ meaning agreed in return. So, they give him a coin that says, “please”
KAYLA: Please
[00:30:00]
SARAH: And they give him a coin back that says, “yeah”
KAYLA: Where do you think you get these coins? Like is there just a store where you get like your marriage coin
SARAH: I don't know. Then you have presenting wedding gifts, wedding date, wedding ceremony blah blah blah blah blah
KAYLA: It all seems very official and business-like. I know it said…
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: That it was business like
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And I agree, very business-like
SARAH: Six tokens of love in ancient China, spice sachets?
KAYLA: Love sachet
SARAH: Rings, hairpins, bracelets, Jade pendants, combs, all of those were in Mulan
KAYLA: They were
SARAH: And that's the extent of my knowledge. Actually, I don't know that all of them were in Mulan, but many of them were in Mulan. I know there are a lot of like wedding and stuff rituals but that's less to do… that's more to do with like the ceremony than it is to do with the courtship, you know?
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: This is modern but Croatia's Museum of Broken Relationships there's an exhibition in Zagreb that features a quirky collection of amorous mementos and random paraphernalia donated by people from across the globe left behind after a break up
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: Yeah. I was trying to find like Indian, South Asian rituals but a lot of them were just like super specific to weddings which I know there are a ton of
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: In South Asian culture so I… if we went into that we would be here for days
KAYLA: Yes, that is… yeah. I mean, I feel like if you start getting into like the wedding stuff then…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Here's the thing, is I feel like… like I'm trying to Google and stuff like dating rituals and stuff like that but I think dating is a very modern…
SARAH: I switched it out for courtship
KAYLA: See, even courtship though I think is like a relatively modern thing
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Or like different cultures have different words for it, right? Because if you think of like very traditional arranged marriages in Southeast Asia like would you call that courting? I don't know
SARAH: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm wondering if maybe part of the reason why so much of what we're finding is European is just because we don't have the same terminology and the same understanding of like creating relationships ahead of marriage
KAYLA: Yes. I think especially back in the day. I think these days just because of globalization everything has maybe merged a bit more
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But yes, I would agree especially like looking back in time
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: I would agree that I think there's maybe just like not an easily translatable way of…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Talking about whatever happens before you get married to someone
SARAH: Right, interesting. Okay. So, this is… we're talking about Mesopotamia in certain regions of southern Babylon in neo-Babylonian times, so, marriage was a legal contract so the future husband and his father-in-law agreed on a contract and if a divorce occurred the father-in-law was entitled to repayment. The contract made between the suitor and the father of his expected bride stipulated a price for the maiden’s hand and she received the sum given to the father. However, if the marriage did not produce children the price the groom had paid for his wife was returned to him upon her death if it had not been returned previously, the lack of children was not the only reason for returning the price paid for the wife, her death could also create a refund
KAYLA: That is wild
SARAH: And then it's also about like marrying brothers and whatever but like… that's interesting, because it is still kind of wedding related but it's also just like, “oh, this is super transactional, huh?”
KAYLA: Yeah, I mean that's how it was I think in most of the world
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Now, here's something very ancient
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Early humans seemed to have recognized the dangers of inbreeding at least 34,000 years ago and developed surprisingly sophisticated social and mating networks to avoid it, new research has found
SARAH: What were they?
KAYLA: Let me keep reading. Well, I don't think there's any way for us to know what they did because it was so long ago. But basically, they did genomic testing on skeletons and such. And they were expecting people to be very closely related, but that was not the case. Usually, people were not closely related and at most were second cousins.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Groups of people that were buried together…
SARAH: Yeah, yeah. Incestuous marriages in ancient Egypt.
KAYLA: This professor says that small family bands likely are to have interconnected with larger networks, facilitating the exchange of people between groups in order to maintain diversity.
SARAH: In ancient Egypt, polygamy appears to have existed almost exclusively in royal families and was not practiced by ordinary people, if for no other reason that few could afford it. Imagine being like, "I want more bitches, but I'm too poor."
KAYLA: You know what's really interesting? Is I recently saw an article, and I didn't read into it too much because it seemed like the person was not writing in good faith, but it was about how polyamory is for the rich only and how it’s like…
SARAH: Mm, interesting
KAYLA: Which… I would be interested to know if that's true, just the way the article was written was very clearly biased, I think. So, I was like, “I’m not interested in hearing your hateful thoughts about queer people.” But, I think that is an interesting concept of like who is privileged enough to have enough time to maintain multiple close relationships like that.
SARAH: Right. Yeah, that's a good point. It's interesting. Everything else is just fucking Europeans.
KAYLA: Yeah. Can I read you a very funny article?
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: This is from the BBC. It's called ‘Here's What We Know Sex With Neanderthals Was Like.’ Scientists know a surprising amount about this titillating episode in human history when our species got together, including whether we kissed and the nature of their sexual organs. Here's how the article starts: "Their eyes met across the rugged mountain landscape of prehistoric Romania. He was a Neanderthal, and stark naked apart from a fur cape. He had good posture and pale skin, perhaps reddened slightly with sunburn. Around one of his thick, muscular biceps, he wore a bracelet of eagle talons. She was an early modern human, clad in an animal skin coat with a wolf fur trim. She had dark skin, long legs, and her hair was worn in braids. He cleared his throat, looking her up and down, and in an absurdly high-pitched nasal voice, deployed his best chat-up line. She stared back blankly. Luckily for him, they didn't speak the same language. They had an awkward laugh and, well, we can all guess what happened next."
SARAH: Why is that written like fan fiction?
KAYLA: Well, it says
SARAH: Bad fan fiction
KAYLA: Well, then it says, of course it could have been far less like a scene from a steamy romance novel,” blah blah blah, but what a silly way to start an article.
SARAH: Oh my God, I hate that so much.
KAYLA: It's silly.
SARAH: It's also hard to find stuff using the term "dating" because then you find people trying to date… like they… we found an artifact, we’re trying to date this artifact
KAYLA: Carbon dating. Yes
SARAH: Yeah. That's all I have to say. I'm disappointed there weren't any peacocks.
KAYLA: Sorry about that.
SARAH: But… I wonder how old the… because this article says… it mentions that when a Chinese groom comes to fetch his bride, he's confronted by a barrage of bridesmaids blocking his entrance. After demanding red envelopes of money, the bridesmaids, and sometimes even the groomsmen, subject the groom to a series of games and physical tasks…
KAYLA: This still happens
SARAH: He is forced to sing and generally teased to prove his love. Yes. But I’m wondering like how… how old is that?
KAYLA: Oh, like… well… I think our poll this this week should be: "What historic dating rituals are from your culture, and are they still around in some form today?"
SARAH: Yeah. I'm trying to think about my culture.
KAYLA: I don't have a culture
SARAH: But it’s difficult because I don’t have one
KAYLA: Yeah, I don’t have a culture, so. I’ll pass on that one
SARAH: I’ll pass on that
KAYLA: I think we've already covered all… our culture…
SARAH: With all the white people…
KAYLA: Today. Yeah.
SARAH: We did the cultic knots, that covers me, I’m good.
KAYLA: That’s you. Yeah. I don't know what the Italians were up to.
SARAH: Okay. Anything else?
KAYLA: Nope.
SARAH: Not sure what this episode was, but it's the way of the world.
KAYLA: Me neither
SARAH: Kayla, so our poll is: "Tell us about dating rituals that are specific to your culture people."
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: Kayla, what's your beef and juice for this week?
KAYLA: My beef is that this is my first week of being a corporate baddie.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: My beef, is not necessarily that it's my first week of being a corporate baddie, but just that I'm not used to working in an office and it's very exhausting. I keep coming home so so tired because I'm not used to interacting with this many people or even just walking around this much.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like I used to just go from my room to my office to maybe the kitchen if things got a little spicy, you know?
[00:40:00]
SARAH: Got a little wild
KAYLA: But now I have a whole building, an office, and city to walk through, you know?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Everyone keeps telling me I'll get used to it, but I'm already so sleepy.
SARAH: Well, it has been three days.
KAYLA: I know, I just wish I would get used to it faster.
SARAH: What’s your juice?
KAYLA: Anyway, my juice is that my birthday was this past weekend. By the time you're listening to this, it has been like…
SARAH: No, your birthday was on Thursday, you celebrated your birthday over the weekend
KAYLA: Sure. Sure. I celebrated my birthday this past weekend, which, when you're listening to this, was a full week ago.
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: And I asked for everything to be a surprise. I was like, I didn't want to plan anything, I wanted it to be a surprise. My first surprise was that Dean flew out our friend Laura from Seattle to surprise me.
SARAH: Mm-hmm. That’s very nice!
KAYLA: And so, he came up with an elaborate ruse about how he left his wallet at his office and had to go get it in the middle of the night, which was actually when he was picking her up from the airport. And I was at my most gullible that day and so I didn’t suspect anything.
SARAH: Oh my God
KAYLA: I like completely had no idea. Well, he also like… He was like, “Oh, I’m going to email security at my building to see if they find my wallet”. And so then like late that night when he was like, “oh, they finally found it” he flashed his phone like with an email on it at me
SARAH: Wow
KAYLA: I didn't like… not close enough to my face where I could read it but he was like, “look.”
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Anyway. And then…
SARAH: They found my wallet, it's Laura
KAYLA: It's Laura though literally. And I was like now every time you lose your wallet I'm going to be like, “oh, my God, Laura is coming, she's here”
SARAH: Who are you bringing this time?
KAYLA: Which is unfortunate because he loses all of his shit all the time
SARAH: I see
KAYLA: And then I was thrown a moulin rouge-themed party which was… the theme was a surprise to me. So, I was… people dressed me and did my makeup for me so I didn't have to do anything and it was… Oh, my God, there's a cat frolicking.
SARAH: Oh my
KAYLA: Anyway, it was a very fun surprise time
SARAH: Wow
KAYLA: Wow. And Sarah sent me the most chaotic of letters
SARAH: I sent her a button in the mail
KAYLA: Yes. I did receive a button amongst many other things including…
SARAH: A bizarre combination of items
KAYLA: Including some like baseball cards but two of them were for pilots and one was for a plane and there were some stickers
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Yep.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Yep
SARAH: Ugh. I should make someone plan my birthday, who could…
KAYLA: I can't…
SARAH: Who…
KAYLA: I can’t… Make me do it.
SARAH: Respectfully, I don't trust him
KAYLA: Make me do it
SARAH: I don't know, I don't…
KAYLA: I can't recommend it enough, I didn't have to make a single decision all weekend, it was magical. Okay
SARAH: I don't feel like I have anyone who lives here who I could ask to do that where it wouldn't be like I am asking a lot of you, you know?
KAYLA: That's fair, it is kind of a lot. Well, I also had like… there was like five people
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: Working together
SARAH: I don't know five people
KAYLA: I basically live with five people at this point, so
SARAH: Anyway, okay. my beef is I was trying to just peacefully drive home in my car yesterday and the universe said, “wait, you want to drive home in peace? how about you drive home in pieces?” And I was driving my car on the highway and I saw on the right some people were like swerving a little bit and slowing down because there was a bunch of debris on the road and I said, “oh.” And then I was avoiding that debris and then very suddenly from the other side of the road my windshield was struck by a mystery item, I don't know what it was but it shattered the entire passenger side of my windshield, got glass inside my car and luckily I could still see out of the driver's side so I just… and I was almost home, so, I just like drove the rest of the way home, but my whole ass windshield, I was submitting a claim to State Farm and they were like “are there more than three cracks?”
KAYLA: Wow
SARAH: “Are they more than six inches long?” And I was like, “You tell me Jake from State Farm. You want to see a picture of this motherfucker? It is shattered”
KAYLA: Yeah, from the picture I saw I would say there are millions of cracks that are as long as possible
SARAH: Yes. So, tomorrow I'm supposed to be getting a new windshield but I haven't been able to go anywhere because it is not safe to drive in my car.
KAYLA: Yeah, also did glass get like all over your stuff?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: How do you deal with that?
SARAH: It's still in my car
KAYLA: Well, I mean like obviously it's in your car but like your bags and stuff
SARAH: Yeah, I just kind of shook it out over the garbage
KAYLA: Okay, it sounds good
SARAH: Oh, yeah, there is still a bunch of glass in my car though. My juice is…
KAYLA: She's looking, she’s looking
SARAH: Delta Biscoff Cookies, that's all. You can tell us about your beef, your juice, your cultural rituals around dating and courtship on our social media @soundsfakepod. We also have a Patreon, patreon.com/soundsfakepod if you want to support us there. Our $5 patrons who we are promoting this week are Chris Lauretano, Cinnamon Toast Punch, Clare Olsen, Colleen Walsh, and Doug Rice. Our $10 patrons… we have a new $10 patron, it’s Bones
KAYLA: Oh my God, the Bones are there, many
SARAH: Bones please let me know what you would like to promote, and we will promote it for you. Our other $10 patrons who would like to promote something this week are Alyson who would like to promote Arden Gray by Ray Stoeve; Ani, who would like to promote the importance of being kind to yourself and others; Arcnes, who would like to promote the Trevor Project; and Benjamin Ybarra, who would like to promote Tabletop games. And then of course Bones, who… please Bones tell us what you would like, thank you for your money. Our other $10 patrons are Celina Dobson, David Harris, Derick & Carissa, Elle Bitter, my Aunt Jeanie, Kayla's dad, Maff, Martin Chiesl, Parker, Purple Hayes, Barefoot Backpacker, SongOStorm and Val. I got two self-aware of the fact that I was doing well with my speed and pronunciation that I...
KAYLA: Yeah, you can’t do that
SARAH: It fucks me up.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Our $15 patrons are Ace, who would like to promote the writer, Crystal Scherer; Andrew Hillum, who would like to promote the Invisible Spectrum podcast; Dia Chappell, who would like to promote Twitch.tv/MelodyDia; Hector Murillo, who would like to promote friends that are supportive, constructive, and help you grow as a better person; Nathaniel White who would like to promote NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com; Kayla’s Aunt Nina who would like to promote katemaggartart.com and Schnell who would like to promote accepting that everyone is different and that's awesome. Our $20 patrons are Dragonfly and my mom, who would like to promote doing your best. Thanks for listening! Tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your cows.
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