Ep 304: Dating App Marketing
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SARAH: Hey, what's up? Hello. Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl, I'm Sarah, that's me
KAYLA: And a bi demisexual girl, that's me Kayla
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand
KAYLA: On today's episode, Dating App Marketing
BOTH: Sounds Fake But Okay
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod
KAYLA: We made it
SARAH: We made it
KAYLA: By the grace of God
SARAH: Of asexual God
KAYLA: Of the asexual God
SARAH: Of aspec God
KAYLA: Whoever that is
SARAH: Whoever that may be. I hope you also made it
KAYLA: Yeah, me too, I also hope that
SARAH: So, that's where we're at. Before we dive in, Kayla, we have housekeeping
KAYLA: We sure do
SARAH: Okay, if you follow us on any of our social media channels including Twitter, we dusted that…
KAYLA: Our valiant
SARAH: We dusted that bad boy off
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: You will know that we have been posting about a fundraiser that we have been participating in the #PassTheHatInitiative from Erin Hattamer, who is the best on the internet. That's the best up the best person on the internet is the claim I've just made
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: And Operation Olive Branch and we have been raising money to help the families of Palestine like eat and stuff.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: You know?
KAYLA: Needed
SARAH: Very basic stuff. And so, we at SFBO have adopted a family, it is this guy named Alaa and his wife and his son and his parents and his brother and sister and his adopted son who they adopted because he had become orphaned in the war
KAYLA: Which is so impressive, to be already suffering so much and then being like, “you know what I'm going to do is add another member to my family.” It's just incredible
SARAH: Yeah. He's like, “I'm going to take care of this kid because this kid needs a family” because everyone is in a very horrible shitty situation in Palestine, especially in Gaza right now, but they're doing their best and this guy is like helping people get clean water because there's like no clean water in Gaza. And so, we are, you know, trying to help raise money to help support him and his family. There's a GoFundMe. It will be in the description of this podcast. I will say that between the time that we posted the first video, his fundraiser was at like eighty-eight hundred dollars ish
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: And it's now a little over $11,000. I'm not going to claim all of that money came from our audience
KAYLA: However
SARAH: But I do know that at least a good chunk of it has. So, if you are like, “I see all the shit that's going on and I feel very helpless” this is a good way to help some people out.
KAYLA: Yeah, and it's not… I know like personally I have been very like it's hard to find awful situation aside knowing where your money goes when you donate in general it's just like difficult
SARAH: MM-hmm
KAYLA: But these fundraisers that are going directly to the people that are on the ground doing things and they're you know posting pictures and updates, like this is something that I feel like you can feel very assured in
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: That your money is actually going to help people get food and clean water and things that they desperately need right now
SARAH: And like Alaa has Instagram so like you can see what he's doing on Instagram, not long after I posted the videos on our socials, he posted on Instagram and also there was an update on the page that his family got displaced again. So, they're now on location number three. So, you know. I know we haven't talked about this matter that much on the podcast because it's a lot and it opens a gigantic can of worms, but I urge you all to maybe give a couple of dollars to Alaa and his family and if you have a platform at all I would recommend also adopting a family from operation olive branch. You can just pick one
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: And they're all vetted.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And all that fun stuff.
KAYLA: Yes. I also say… yeah, we haven't talked about it much, I think we typically like to keep things light and distracting here
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: We also haven't really posted anything on our socials because I've been really bad about updating our socials with literally anything lately
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: Um, LOL.
SARAH: I love that press.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I mean, I'm not helping, so
KAYLA: Because life is wild right now for me. We are doing our best. But I will say Sarah especially posts a lot of great updates on her Instagram if you just need somewhere to go of like, where are good Instagrams to follow or like reputable news sources?
SARAH: I annoy everybody
KAYLA: Sarah especially. Yes. I mean, I'm not annoyed. I am educated. But Sarah especially has a lot of great resources there, so
SARAH: Yay.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Not yay at all. But you know…
KAYLA: No, actually really
SARAH: Really fucking horrible. Anyway, I hope you're all writing your representatives, especially if you live in the United States, okay
KAYLA: LOL
SARAH: Anyway, so yes, please donate, a link is going to be in the description of everything also please, yes, even a couple dollars helps, seriously
KAYLA: Or just sharing…
SARAH: Or just sharing
KAYLA: If you have… if you don't have the money. And also, if you're like I have some money but it's going to your Patreon right now, bitch, we don't need that.
SARAH: Yeah, take it…
KAYLA: Put it elsewhere
SARAH: Take it back
KAYLA: Take it back. If it's between us and them, I think you know the right choice.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: For where your money should be donating
SARAH: I think you do too. Okay, podcast. Kayla?
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: What are we talking about this week this week?
KAYLA: This week we are talking about dating apps and Bumble in particular because they recently did an ad campaign that did not go over well, an ad campaign and also just like they changed their business model lately I don't know if you've seen that, but people are just in general very pissed at Bumble
SARAH: Great
KAYLA: So, we're going to speak on that. I did see… I think this is like a couple weeks old news at this point which for us, you know…
SARAH: I don't think it's that old though because I saw Caroline posting about it recently and also, I just hopped on Caroline's Instagram to check to confirm that and they just posted a GoFundMe for a family in Gaza
KAYLA: Slay
SARAH: So, support that family as well at Click For Caroline
KAYLA: Yes, I mean… yeah, Caroline is great to follow no matter what, so we recommend
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Also, yes, the article that I'm reading from today that one of our lovely listeners sent as an idea for something to talk about, thank you so much because I don't know what else we've been talking about at this time
SARAH: Truly
KAYLA: Weasel, of course, my dear Weasel.
SARAH: Weasel
KAYLA: But that article came out yesterday. So, it is recent news actually
SARAH: So, take that
KAYLA: Take that. So, first of all, I guess background, I guess backing all the way up Bumble is a dating app.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: On your phone, I believe it's American, I think people use it worldwide, but it's an American company. Yes, because it IPOed recently, yes. Their whole shtick originally was that women had to message first, that like I think on dating apps in general, I guess at least back in the day it was very like men kind of had to make the first move. So, this was supposed to be like changing it up women had to take the initiative whatever, that was the whole thing
SARAH: Yeah, and so then men couldn't just like unsolicited…
KAYLA: You couldn’t be…
SARAH: Like the woman had to be interested first.
KAYLA: Yes. Yes
SARAH: In a hetero scenario
KAYLA: Yeah, I cannot remember in like non-hetero relationships what the…
SARAH: I believe that rule is just waived because…
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: I know in like sapphic relationships, I'm almost certain, they just… whoever, and then I think for like for MLM relationships they were just like well someone has got to do it
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: So
KAYLA: Okay. Yeah, either way, none of that matters anymore because they recently took that whole thing away.
SARAH: Oh. Why…
KAYLA: And I think… I don't know that was like the one thing that made their app different from any other dating app
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: That was like the literal one difference.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: So, I believe now you can just like… you might be able to choose that like I want to be the one who messages first or like that kind of thing
SARAH: Interesting
KAYLA: I'm not 100% sure and I also like… that's not the point of this.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Oh, there's another related article to this, Bumble allegedly wouldn't let a non-binary person message a woman first
SARAH: Well, that's fucked up
KAYLA: That was from 2022, but anyway, other Bumble-related LGBTQ play, but that's not what we're talking about today. Today, we're talking about amidst all these changes Bumble has just been doing a lot of ad campaigns, clearly they're not doing well and they feel that they need to change what's going on.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: There has been like a lot of billboards, a lot of social media posts, the ones we are talking about today are billboards that went up that said thing… Yes
SARAH: Sorry, I just thought of something that I think we should mention before this, Bumble also has this thing called Bumble BFF.
KAYLA: Oh. Yes
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SARAH: Which is just for finding friends, which I think is cool. And I think was very innovative
KAYLA: Yes, I have heard many good reviews of Bumble BFF actually, like I know people that have found good friends from there
SARAH: Yeah, and so like in my mind Bumble was always kind of like a more progressive dating app, like they definitely had their Bumble stumbles if you will
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: But like in my mind they were one of the more like aspec progressive friendly
KAYLA: Yeah, I will also say that like… So, my old company we worked with them a couple of times on like ad things and also like took a lot of notes just on the… Oh, oh, Sarah spilled her Coke, just so you know, anyone who is listening, she's gone now, because… jeez, you know
SARAH: Look at my pantaloon.
KAYLA: Oh, you peed yourself
SARAH: You saw nothing, you heard nothing. All of my Cherry Coke is either in the can or in my body. It's nowhere else.
KAYLA: I think my giant neck crack just picked up on my like… I really hope it did it was crazy and loud
SARAH: Hold on. I'm actually going to not wear these pants because they're pretty wet.
KAYLA: Yeah. Anyway, Sarah is wearing cow print shorts. Yeah, they're pretty good
SARAH: When I said my pants were wet, I obviously meant that it started raining in my apartment because all of my Cherry Coke is either in a can or in my body and none of it is anywhere else. Anyway, what were we saying before I didn't knock my Cherry Coke over?
KAYLA: Yes. I had been saying that I had worked with some Bumble marketing people before and studied their like ambassador program especially and their marketing was like good.
SARAH: Mm
KAYLA: Looked nice
SARAH: What happened?
KAYLA: What happened? I'll tell you what happened
SARAH: Hit me with it
KAYLA: Here's what happened, is they put a lot of billboards up about a lot of things, most notably and relevant to us were billboards that said things like, “you know full well a vow of celibacy is not the answer” and things like “thou shalt not give up on dating and become a nun”
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: So
SARAH: What about a monk? It just says not a nun
KAYLA: Yeah, I mean, I guess a monk would be okay. It also… So, the… I've not seen the, “thou shalt not become a nun” billboard. I have seen pictures of the other one, the vow of celibacy one. And it's a picture of like a female presenting person and I would guess that the other billboard with the nun has someone on it who could be a nun
SARAH: Bumble nun billboard. Sorry, the first thing that came up was this article from the drum and the headline is, “women we're having nun of Bumble celibacy”
KAYLA: That's funny. That's silly
SARAH: Yeah, it was a person who femininish presenting a little on the mask side, but femininish presenting
KAYLA: Yes, so the article I'm looking at is by LGBTQ Nation and they talk a lot about how obviously a lot of asexual people are upset but also a lot of like women in general are just like, “What are we doing?”
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Bumble… So, lots of people were upset and Bumble made a reply
SARAH: Mm-hmm.
KAYLA: It's like a three-slide thing on Instagram
SARAH: Classic
KAYLA: Where they say, “to our beloved Bumble community, we made a mistake” and they say that the ads referencing celibacy “were an attempt to lean into a community frustrated by modern dating and instead of bringing joy and humor they unintentionally did the opposite.” They say “some of the perspectives we heard were from those who shared that celibacy is the only answer what reproductive rights are continuously restricted.”
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: “From others for whom celibacy is a choice one that we respect and from the asexual community for whom celibacy can have a particular meaning and importance.”
SARAH: Mm-hmm.
KAYLA: We can come back to that, I got that wording on.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: “Which should not be diminished. We are also aware that for many celibacy can be brought on by harm or trauma, for years Bumble has passionately stood up for women and marginalized communities and their right to fully exercise personal choice. We didn't live up to these values with this campaign and we apologize for the harm it caused. So, here's what we're doing, they're removing the ads, they're making a donation to the National Domestic Violence Hotline among other organizations,” which they did not list
SARAH: Great
KAYLA: “To support ongoing efforts to support the work being done around the world to support women marginalized communities and those impacted by abuse.” They're offering the billboard spaces to partners for just duration of the reserved billboard time and they say, “please keep speaking up and telling us how we can be better”
SARAH: Okay
KAYLA: I find the wording around the asexuality a bit interesting
SARAH: They didn't they didn't talk to a single aspec person.
KAYLA: I fear they did not
SARAH: Because like part of me is like, “how many people did this go through?” Like…
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: I can understand like, okay, you might not be thinking of it in whatever way… like, okay, I can understand how it may have ended up to print but when you're apologizing for something like this and if you're going to apologize to a community who was vocal about how they didn't like this, you need to talk to people in that community and make sure that your statement and your apology is actually addressing them properly
KAYLA: Yeah, I do know… I saw Caroline…
SARAH: I'm looking at it as we speak
KAYLA: Yeah. When they were posting about this, I guess had been in talks with Bumble years ago about…
SARAH: In 2020. Mm-hmm. So, Caroline had been talking to… had DMed with Bumble, I think it may have been Bumble Australia and they said, “thanks so much for reaching out and sharing with us, we agree, we know there's work that needs to be done, but love to pass this feedback along and even have feedback you'd like to add” and then I don't know… I don't… it doesn't have every message. But at some point, Caroline said, “Hey, I never got any response for this, I would love to feature on the podcast, especially since a lot of the asexual community are wondering if the app is safe regarding the latest advertisement, plenty of people don't need nor do they want sex, let me know” And last I heard Caroline did not hear anything back even though that they had… even though that Bumble had like actively engaged with them at some point in the past
KAYLA: Yeah. I mean that part is just like… that part I'm a bit sympathetic for as someone who has had to be on the other side of DMs.
SARAH: Of course. Yeah
KAYLA: When I have wanted things to be a certain way and I'm receiving information like from above about like this is how we're responding to a situation or just like you do pass the message along.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And it just like, you know, nothing ends up coming back
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: But yeah, it's frustrating because they had someone that was… that is asexual that was offering to talk
SARAH: That was offering that has a platform already.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Yeah. I don't necessarily blame the person that they were DMing with
KAYLA: Yep
SARAH: But I think it is kind of telling of their broader view towards asexuality and the aspec community if they're going to be like, “yeah, we hear you, whoo.”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And then in this statement clearly not talk to a single ace.
KAYLA: Yeah, and like ace people are not hard to reach
SARAH: No
KAYLA: Right? Like…
SARAH: We're chronically online.
KAYLA: We are like just speaking about us, like the amount of times we're reached out for like press things or like we've had random dating apps reach out to us before usually like smaller ones, but whatever. Like we've had things where like people will reach out to Angela Chen and she's like, I am… like, I don't want to like be hogging all of the print time. So, I'm going to pass this on to other people
SARAH: David Jay has done that too
KAYLA: David Jay has done that. Like we're not hard to reach
SARAH: No
KAYLA: And I think… what? like from everything I've seen from like fellow aspecs of platform
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Very willing to talk about these things
SARAH: And the people with larger platforms in this community tend to be pretty connected with each other. So…
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: If you can connect to one of them
KAYLA: You could get passed along to who you need to get to
SARAH: You could get to who you need to be in conversation with
KAYLA: Yeah, like I feel like it's not like we know everyone, but I feel like we know enough people that then know other people that there's like a web, you know?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Everyone is in there somehow
SARAH: Yeah, that's that is one of the perks of having a community that is on this smaller side is that it is a little bit like a small town where it's like everyone knows everyone or everyone knows someone who knows everyone
KAYLA: Which can be good and bad
SARAH: Good and bad
KAYLA: And frustrating sometimes, but also for something like this very, very helpful where you can get the resources you need to but… Yeah, I mean I… it makes me wonder if they really talked to anyone or if they were like just looking at the comments and going based on that
SARAH: Yeah, do we do… do we know how quickly this apology was turned around like how long it took?
KAYLA: This apology was posted on May 13th. I don't know when the billboards went up or when people started getting upset. Let me see if it's in that article
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SARAH: I think… I'm also just like looking at the phrasing, they said, “and from the asexual community for whom celibacy can have a particular meaning and importance”
KAYLA: That is such a cop-out. That is such a cop-out
SARAH: That is a lot of words to say nothing
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: It's not quite word salad, but it's like a… it's maybe like a word side salad where it's like, it sounds nice, but in reality, you're not really saying anything because I challenge the people who wrote this and the people who okayed this to explain what that particular meaning and importance is. I would like them to tell me because I don't think they know
KAYLA: According to this article the apology was committee written.
SARAH: Okay
KAYLA: Whatever that means
SARAH: Okay
KAYLA: Like I don't know if it's like an internal…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Committee, let me see
SARAH: And like I can see why they thought that saying that would be enough or that they were like, “oh, yeah, we understand that celibacy is important to you,” but that also just shows a completely fundamental misunderstanding of aspec identities and what it means to be aspec.
KAYLA: Yeah, I mean, I think they were just like, “well, we know we have to say something.”
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But like…
SARAH: I'm like, I'm glad they addressed the asexual community, I guess that's better than not, but…
KAYLA: Okay, apparently also there was a commercial for the nun thing, that showed a woman attempting to swear off dating and become a nun but then she abandons her convent after drooling over a sexy shirtless gardener and receiving an illicit phone loaded with the Bumble app and then the text reads, “we've…” like, overlay reads, “we've changed so you don't have to” and then right after. So, that commercial aired two weeks before May 14th, whatever day that is
SARAH: Yeah, I understand why the people pitching that ad were like, “this is fucking genius, dude”
KAYLA: I understand the idea before or… huh? I understand the idea completely, like I think I've often heard people make that joke of…
SARAH: Oh, absolutely
KAYLA: I'm just going to run away and become a nun. I’m done dating, you know
SARAH: I just saw something somewhere where like, yeah the, IMA's head of channel communications Caroline Gill said I think every woman who was in online dating has at some point said, “fuck it. I'm doing a convent” like yeah but…
KAYLA: Yes, like people… but there is a difference between… amongst friends being like I'm taking a vow of celibacy like I'm so done with dating and sex to an ad from a global company
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Saying we understand you are frustrated with dating, we are probably part of the reason for these issues, and this is what…
SARAH: We can fix it.
KAYLA: And this is what we're going to say about it
SARAH: And we’re fixing it. Also, I just… something I didn't even totally take in when I first saw it, looking at the nun billboard, the text on the nun billboard says, “thou shalt not give up on dating and become a nun.” So, I think also the phrasing invoking the Ten Commandments certainly did not help
KAYLA: It is and you know the phrasing is like very strong like even on the celibacy one, you know full well a vow of celibacy is not the answer
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like that is like…
SARAH: It's like Bumble is hopping on the God mic and telling you like, “you will not do this”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: “We know better”
KAYLA: And that takes away like any of the funny joke of it, you know?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like I feel like even if it had been phrased differently there might have been slightly fewer people angry. I think it obviously still would not have gone over “well, this was a bad idea”
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: But like I think… even if they had like just run the nun commercial with some different wording and not done the billboards
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I think that honestly would have been fine
SARAH: Because the thing about billboards is there's no additional context. That's it.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: It's an image and words
KAYLA: Like, what? In a commercial I can see how you could get the ha ha of it across, like…
SARAH: Yeah. Like you can make clear that these people having a conversation are friends and know each other well, and… you know. This is Sarah from the future, here's a free idea for you Bumble, show two friends who throughout the course of their lives after every bad date have been like, “oh my God, I'm going to join a convent. Oh my God, I'm going to join a convent,” but then they keep going back to dating because they want to date and then finally one throws in the towel and is like, “oh my God, I'm actually going to do it. I'm going to join a convent” and then the friend can like get them the illicit phone and then they can be like “wait, I found a better way. It's Bumble” You could have done that, dear God
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I'm looking at just this article that I clicked on because I liked the pun in the thing.
KAYLA: Mm
SARAH: But like this person Audrey Dom and it was a senior brand strategy consultant believes the campaign came out at the worst possible time, “it totally missed the mark launching during the ongoing conversation of women's safety like the man versus bear discourse”
KAYLA: Mm
SARAH: “It also came after Tinder released the ‘share my date’ feature which provides the details of date plans including location, date time and a photo of the match. After Bumble removed its signature feature of women messaging first you understand why the ad sounds so tone-deaf”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Which that… I mean that just makes sense where it's like we're going to get rid of the things that were supposed to benefit women and it… then it's like shaming you if you… telling you, no, you have to date still. What?
KAYLA: I'd also… I'd be interested to see if like any of these ad campaigns are targeted towards men like is there anything targeting like, “oh men, we know dating sucks here…” blah blah blah, you know, like it's
SARAH: Yeah. So, Katie Blake says “Bumble was basically built on being a safe place for women and this relaunch by removing that feature and then going for such a bold, but opposing view feels like it is sold out.” Nadia Williams – these are all people who like know things in this, they're not just like a random be on the internet.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Um, said, “I think the ad could have worked for more out there dating app like Tinder but the messaging doesn't fit what I thought Bumble was, a safe space with more intentional relationships”
KAYLA: Yeah, that's so true. So, it makes no sense with their branding. It's so true. And it kind of seems like they're trying to be more out there, like in the post that they made leading up to the launch of their like, the new app without any of their good features, they like deleted everything off their Instagram and just started fresh and they're posting… they started posting these like… I don't know like paintings of women kind of like, oh, shoot, Sarah, I don’t know if you can describe it better but just like you know paintings of women like lounging around being tired looking, you know? The kind of stuff you'd see in a museum.
SARAH: Yeah, like classical
KAYLA: Classical paintings, yeah. So, there's one of this like woman sleeping on a park bench and there's a man leaning over that's saying, “you're the only girl I'm talking to” Or this other one of like a man and a woman in a park and under the man it says, “have you heard of crypto?” Or this man like holding on to this woman's hand as she leaving saying, “but I sent you flame emojis.” So, clearly women just like being exhausted and then they're selling these shirts of a classical painting of a woman in yellow because Bumble like laying on a couch, sleeping with the word just like exhausted over it and it's like exhausted girl summer
SARAH: Okay
KAYLA: So, they're clearly playing into this thing at it’s all women
SARAH: Of like people being sick of the current dating?
KAYLA: Yes, but it is all women, all women in these paintings, all men in the paintings being annoying, all women wearing these shirts
SARAH: Hey, this is Sarah from the future. Sorry. I have things to add this week. How… but don't they want to also appeal men to their app? Like unless… like… what? How is that work is a good marketing strategy if it only… if they're only targeting women? There's no way that Bumble has a disproportionate number of men on the app, like what? Not this tweet that says they got the anti-asexual billboards in LA
KAYLA: God, no. Okay, no, this is so crazy, okay. I think this is how they're trying to justify taking away the women message first. One of the captions on these posts of like the classical paintings said exhausted women through the years fed up with doing all the work, it's time for a change, chapter one of the new Bumble is coming. So, what are they… and like the other one is like, “dating needs a wake-up call, we're on it” blah blah blah. Like are…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like it just did… none of this landed
SARAH: None
KAYLA: None. And yeah, our new tagline is, ‘we've changed so you don't have to,’ which like I can understand how that came about in some conference room where people are like, “okay, we're changing the app. Like what's the whole…” you know, but…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: It got fucked up so bad.
SARAH: Yeah. Again, I really want to talk to them and just say what do you mean by the asexual community for whom celibacy can have a particular meaning and importance? What do you mean by that?
KAYLA: I don't… they don't know
SARAH: They don't know
KAYLA: Celibacy is such a difficult topic in… like when talking about the aspec community, I think because of how like charged of a word celibacy is and how people react to someone who is celibate, the types of people that choose to be celibate, why for like a religious or a trauma reason someone might choose to be celibate, like in the discussion of how asexuality is different fundamentally from celibacy but can overlap, like that is a dynamic conversation that you… I really… I mean to be honest, like not to say that I'm like, “Oh, like it's…” I'm not excusing what they did but like I don't know how you could word that without like, you know?
[00:30:00]
SARAH: Like in their apology you mean? Like you don't know how…
KAYLA: It would not… Yes, the way… if they were insisting on just doing like a three-slide Instagram post for their apology, it could not have fit in that format. I think that they could have taken the opportunity to make this like a learning moment
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Where they could have been like, okay, here's the different communities we pissed off, let's do some education about asexuality, about people who are religious and chose to be celibate, about why trauma might cause celibacy, about why people might choose to be celibate because of the lack of reproductive rights. Like…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: They could have turned it into a much more nuanced teaching moment of like, okay, we have this platform. Which like I understand that would be hard to put together very very quickly and they I think probably just wanted to get a statement out as quickly as possible and that's why it sucks because it was written quickly but like…
SARAH: Okay. Hi, this is Sarah from the future, I actually have thought about this a little bit more and you know what? I do have a suggestion. I have even written it for them. All right, Bumble here it is; and the asexual community for whom a choice to remain celibate may be a reflection of their identity rather than a choice made as a reaction to the current dating landscape. How about that? That's what… why… let's say that instead. I came up with that in 30 seconds. Just talk to an aspec person. Okay. Anyway, back to the past. I think for me, honestly the thing that's most frustrating about this is that like I viewed Bumble as like the better of the dating apps in terms of inclusivity and just that kind of shit and for them to be like, “We're rebranding to make ourselves worse.”
KAYLA: I think the problem is that like safety is not like sexy enough, you know? Like, Bumble's shtick being that they are a more inclusive place that like tries to put women first, like is just not exciting and you have like places like Hinge that go viral for like adding a voice message feature that then like people post the crazy voice messages they hear you on TikTok or whatever. You know, like apps like Tinder and Hinge that have a brand that is more out there, like people are probably going to think of those apps first if they're like, “okay, what dating app am I going to download? What are my friends using? What have I seen online?” You know, whatever
SARAH: In my mind, I just view them as having different purposes, like the…
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: The main purpose of Tinder and Hinge can be finding someone that you're going to marry, my sister met her wife on Tinder, but if you're looking for like a more serious relationship and like, you know, you're more of like the settle-down type
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: You are less likely to lean in the direction of Tinder and Hinge here in the Lord's year 2024 and more likely to lean in the direction of Bumble or Coffee Meets Bagel. Is that still a thing?
KAYLA: Yeah. I don’t know.
SARAH: I don’t even know
KAYLA: But that's also like specific for students, I think
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Coffee Meets Bagel, yeah
SARAH: And you know there have… there are a lot of dating apps these days and I can see why like people would be overwhelmed by like the options and just go for like the big names, but Bumble is already a big name
KAYLA: Yeah. I think they could have like… it is very clear that they are trying to become a more viral app
SARAH: They're trying to become something that they're not
KAYLA: Yeah, when they could have just taken all of the budget they have and like doubled down on what they were already doing, you know?
SARAH: You can't tell me that there's not another option for how they can, you know, increase their visibility increase their usership.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Because also just with their business model, which one is the app that's like the app that's made to be deleted?
KAYLA: That's Hinge
SARAH: That's Hinge?
KAYLA: Like their whole shtick is like designed to be deleted
SARAH: Right. And I think… Because then if you look at like a Tinder or like a Grindr or something that's more of like a hookup app
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like they keep people coming because the point is not to meet the person you're going to marry and delete the app. Whereas Bumble and to some extent Hinge, I think Hinge kind of straddles those two worlds…
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: A little bit more, but… Oh, my God, distracted. What? Hinge…
KAYLA: I mean I can tell you what I was thinking…
SARAH: Finish my thought for me
KAYLA: Yeah, I'll finish your thought. The problem with marketing dating apps in general and in general dating apps is that for them to make money the people have to stay on
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: So, like a place like Hinge having their shtick being designed to be deleted, like can you take that to be true when they only make money when people stay on and stay on for so long that they get desperate enough to buy monthly subscriptions which gives them access to like more people, more ratings, more messages, things like that. Like in a way…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: They need to make the free version of their app so shitty but not shitty enough that you stay on.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But need the extra features.
SARAH: Yes. Yes, that is exactly what I was getting at, is that when you…
KAYLA: You’re welcome
SARAH: Thank you. When your business model is like, oh this is for like long-term relationships, you have to come up with a way to bring in new people all the time, whereas with more of like a hookup app situation, like Tinder is like this in a sense and I also think like Tinder is like the app that people will download for fun. And like…
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: You just like, “let me just swipe on Tinder” and you know what? That might accidentally lead to marriage several years later, but like…
KAYLA: Yeah, Tinder is like the simplest one at this point. I feel like they don't have a shtick like Hinge they have all these like prompts you answer, it's like a whole long thing, Bumble, I guess I don't know what their shtick is anymore
SARAH: Who knows? I don't think they have one
KAYLA: Like Tinder to me is just like the prototype, just like the simplest situation
SARAH: Yeah, you swipe right, you swipe left.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: That's it. But yeah, but if your business model is we want this to be for real forever, you have to find a way to bring more people in and so I understand that they're struggling with that and they're trying to figure out how to make money as a company, but…
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I don't know that this pivot is going to do that for them
KAYLA: Here's the real problem with Bumble needing to make more money, is that I believe two years ago they IPOed, they are a public company now, which to my knowledge is not true of apps like Tinder and Hinge. So, now…
SARAH: So, why would a company IPO?
KAYLA: I don't know why they IPOed. I remember it… I remember it being a big thing… Well, it was a big thing for me at the time because they had a big like New York event when they IPOed, they like had a bunch of signs up in Times Square and some of like our pictures from when my company had worked with them like made it onto the Times Square billboard. So, like we were excited because our company's name slid onto a billboard.
SARAH: Yeah. Slid in there
KAYLA: By accident.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But I don't know because I think since then they've had like leadership changes in the last like year
SARAH: Nice
KAYLA: Which is like I think where the newness is maybe coming from, is like whoever's in charge now.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But yeah, that's the thing is like why would you IPO and then within two years changing something like this and I am guessing that their stocks have not been doing well
SARAH: No
KAYLA: Since all of this came up
SARAH: Let me look it up. Bumble, Bobble, Bumble, Bobble, Bum, Bumble stock price. Well, that's just today, give me like a month. I have bad news for you
KAYLA: Yes?
SARAH: It hit a low at the very end of April
KAYLA: Ah, and then they did the rebrand
SARAH: And then they did the rebrand and you know what day it peaked on?
KAYLA: Oh, no
SARAH: May 17th
KAYLA: Mm
SARAH: Now, to be fair, it's not a huge jump, like…
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: It's like a $2 per stock difference in jump. But…
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: It is… However, now look at this, I'm looking at six months, it has been going down, it's been going down, down, down
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But it does seem that it did jump up when they did the rebrand which I hate
KAYLA: I'm very confused by that timing though because they started teasing the rebrand April 26th.
SARAH: Hmm
KAYLA: So, did people jump ship because they were like a rebrand is risky in general and then they hopped back? I don't…
SARAH: Hopped back? I don't know
KAYLA: I don't know how people…
SARAH: I don't know how stocks work.
KAYLA: We are not… I don't know why we're even talking about this, we're not the people for this, but that is… I just… yeah, the whole like IPO of it, all like being a public company makes it all the more fishy, I think
SARAH: Yeah, when they first… I assume it was what February 2021 when they first became publicly traded, their stock was $75 and it has only gone down since then.
KAYLA: Yeah, I don't know why… And I don't think any other a dating app is publicly traded
SARAH: Match is publicly traded
KAYLA: I don't know her. Like match.com?
SARAH: Like match.com
KAYLA: Oh, okay
SARAH: The OG
KAYLA: That is the OG, that and the Harmony.
SARAH: Uh, wow, Match stock is worth more than Bumble, it's like twice as much
[00:40:00]
KAYLA: I think you have to pay to match.com though
SARAH: Yeah, I think… I bet you do
KAYLA: I think they have a more secure business model
SARAH: Yeah, those seem to be the only two publicly traded.
KAYLA: Yeah, I just… I mean, I don't know much about stocks or the reasons companies choose to become public but like I remember when Facebook became public it was like a big thing. It just feels like with something like a dating app that in general…
SARAH: Wait, Grindr might be public
KAYLA: Is Grindr public? That's wild
SARAH: Yeah, Grindr is on the up-and-up baby, it… Grindr is worth less than Bumble but it has better trends. I'm a stock analyst now
KAYLA: I mean. But Grindr like they know who they… you know?
SARAH: They know who they are, they know exactly who they are
KAYLA: They know who they are and they also don't have to market.
SARAH: No
KAYLA: Like they don't have competitors
SARAH: No
KAYLA: You know? Nothing else is like Grindr. They found it and they are…
SARAH: They found their niche and they said they are here
KAYLA: We're here. Like I just… dating apps in general are still such new technology, it seems like such a risk to go public when like it's still so up in the air
SARAH: My dog, my guy, what happened between November 14th and November 21st 2022?
KAYLA: I don't know
SARAH: Actually, no, what happened between November 7th and November 14th when the Grindr stock went from 10.51 to 36.50 and then the next week went back down to 9.55.
KAYLA: Who's to say?
SARAH: What dumbasses bought stock that day?
KAYLA: I don’t know, it sucks for them
SARAH: Anyway, dating apps and stocks, two things I know a lot about
KAYLA: A lot about. I just… Dating is so fucked up now and…
SARAH: I’m so glad I don't do it. Oh my god
KAYLA: I mean, the fact in general that there are corporations involved in dating
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I think if you like really step back and look at it is very dystopian
SARAH: Everything about our world is dystopian, the fact… I mean, if you just… like we're… I was kind of thinking about this in the back of my head when we were talking about how Bumble needs to keep acquiring new users to make money. It's like well, because also we live in a universe in which companies have to make money, you have to be profitable, capitalism. And so, like…
KAYLA: And you have to make more money. You cannot say flat
SARAH: It has to be exponential growth all the time.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Which just makes me think about population growth and… There's…
KAYLA: Well, that could also be a problem if… they're saying that like younger people are not dating as much or like not having as much sex anymore or whatever. Like, usually you want new users you start going younger and younger
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Is Gen alpha going to have any interest in a dating app?
SARAH: I don't know.
KAYLA: I don't know, like a lot of people are saying Gen alpha is going to like return to their roots and like we're going to become outdoors people again, like…
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: You know?
SARAH: I saw a video of this woman who had spray-painted her little kids like tiny basketball hoops beige
KAYLA: No
SARAH: And she got a up on the internet for it and… The video itself was tongue-in-cheek and it was like from the perspective of her toddler being like, “This is what I did to my mom to get back at her for painting my basketball hoops beige”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And the kid drew all over their couch like rainbow colors, not just in one spot, like everywhere on their couch
KAYLA: Good
SARAH: Which is funny and like…
KAYLA: It is
SARAH: Like she dealt with it in a way that was like funny being like, haha, this is my kid getting back at me
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But in the comments, all the comments were like, the way that this generation of kids are going to turn out to be like absolute maximalists
KAYLA: Oh, yeah
SARAH: Because when they were babies everything was fucking beige
KAYLA: Yeah, savage babies
SARAH: Savage babies. But… Yeah, I'd… I mean, this also gets into a whole thing with like population growth and the only reason, like… okay, I was listening to one of the weekend editions of What A Day, the podcast, where they like pick a topic that's relevant to the world
KAYLA: I’ve listened to that one
SARAH: You've listened to that one? Oh my god.
KAYLA: I have. Look at me
SARAH: But they were… pick a topic that's like relevant to the current world and like talk about like… Like how to fix it, how to deal with it, that sort of thing. And one of them recently was about the baby bust essentially and Erin Ryan who I very much respect as a person was talking about how like it's something that… shit. It's like this is her like Roman Empire that like no one is having kids anymore and like…
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But basically, the main reason why it's a “problem” is because we live in a capitalist world. And so, like as they were talking about like here's why it poses a problem, I'm like, yeah, okay, but only if you care about capitalism working.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And so, I was like Erin, I love you, but like do you really care that much about capitalism working?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But I think that also just like with changing opinions of the younger generations and coming into these like dating apps and stuff, it's like if the outcome is not necessarily the same like, you know, they say that young people are having less sex and that they're you know… They're not doing this and they're not doing that. It's like I could absolutely see that like some things like dating apps become less popular and then people have fewer kids and then the old people lose their fucking minds because how are we going to pay for their social security? You know?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: The social security that we're not going to fucking get
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Because it was never a sustainable, anyway. It could be if it was done… Well, it wasn't. Anyway…
KAYLA: Lol
SARAH: That has been my diversion into population growth
KAYLA: Thank you. I love it
SARAH: Dude, the country of South Korea is having an existential fucking crisis
KAYLA: I know
SARAH: Because women do not want to have kids.
KAYLA: I love that for them
SARAH: And they're like “wow?” like, “what?” Like, “How can we fix this?” Let's not worry about making our society more welcoming to women and making the men less bad.
KAYLA: No
SARAH: Let's find something else. Anyway, dating, don't do it, that's my recommendation.
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: I've found great success that way, can't fail
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: That's all
KAYLA: Hey, yeah, I don't know that I have any advice
SARAH: Great. Kayla, what's our poll for this week?
KAYLA: What is the particular meaning and… yeah?
SARAH: Sorry. I just refreshed the GoFundMe and it has raised more money since we started this podcast.
KAYLA: Yeah, we did it. We did it. What is the particular meaning and importance of celibacy for the asexual community?
SARAH: That's our poll?
KAYLA: Please tell me, please…
SARAH: Let us know
KAYLA: Please let us know what that means
SARAH: I would love to know
KAYLA: Yeah. Same
SARAH: All right, great. Kayla, what's your beef and your juice for this week?
KAYLA: Oh boy, I would say just to sum up many beefs that I have, that I will not get into, my beef is when people are upset when they don't get something they want and so they think that the best way to respond to that to get what they want is by being incredibly mean
SARAH: Is to throw a tantrum
KAYLA: Which is so silly to me because why would being mean get you anything when you could be nice?
SARAH: Well, some people have had some positive reinforcement that… in the wrong direction, you know?
KAYLA: Yes. Yes. So, anyway. My juice is sudoku. I have re-entered a sudoku era and I… did I talk about this already?
SARAH: I don't think so
KAYLA: Last week
SARAH: I don't remember
KAYLA: Or if I did…
SARAH: If you did I wasn't paying attention.
KAYLA: You'll hear it again. There's an app called Good Sudoku which like… you play Sudoku on it, obviously. But then it also like teaches you kind of as you go like new techniques and it's…
SARAH: How to be better?
KAYLA: How to be better, yes. So, like I've become better at sudoku I can do harder puzzles now and I'm like, “oh my God,” it makes me feel so smart.
SARAH: Wow. I love that for you
KAYLA: Thank you.
SARAH: What a delight? My beef is I don't know how to stop staining my shirts. I always just get like…
KAYLA: Bib?
SARAH: Grease stains on my… but the problem is half the time I don't even notice until like after I wash them and then the next time I go to put them on…
KAYLA: Apron?
SARAH: And I'm like, “what?” Like yesterday…
KAYLA: Cooking jacket?
SARAH: Yesterday I spilled shit on my shirt and I said “no, I've had this shirt for so long.”
KAYLA: I really think you need to start wearing like a bib or apron of some sort
SARAH: Yeah, just like recently I've had several shirts that I'm like, “well, fuck”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: My juice is I went to both of the LA Tomorrow by Together shows this week, they were delightful, whoops, I accidentally paused my recording
KAYLA: Good
SARAH: They were delightful, the second one I went to by myself and I was like closer to the stage and the two people on either side of me were both just like going ham and the girl on one side of me was also there by herself and… It was just an unhinged experience, it was great
KAYLA: I love that
[00:50:00]
SARAH: Except my fucking moa bong didn't work, either night
KAYLA: Boo
SARAH: Boo. Anyway, that's all. You can tell us about your beef and your juice on our social media @soundsfakepod. We also have a Patreon, patreon.com/soundsfakepod if you want to support us there. Our $5 patrons who we are promoting this week are Edward Hayes-Holgate, Elizabeth Wheeler, Emily Jean, ffinasfs, and Galvin Ford. And… How could I forget? We have a new $5 patron, it's Tanner Shioshita. Thank you, Tanner
KAYLA: Hi, thank you.
SARAH: You're a delight. I've also just realized, silly me, I forgot to mention, we have a new $2 patron
KAYLA: Sarah! How could you?
SARAH: Everybody clapped and cheered, our new $2 patron is Steff. And I know it's Steff because you're German.
KAYLA: Yay
SARAH: Thank you so much for… it's actually two euros, thank you so much for your two euros Steff.
KAYLA: I love two euros
SARAH: Danke schön. Our $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are Celina Dobson who would like to promote the Critical Role Foundation, David Harris who would like to promote Derick & Carissa, Elle Bitter who would like to promote... Why did I just skip what Derick & Carissa are promoting? Dude, I also skipped what David Harris was promoting, that's the Cradle book series by Will Wight. I swear to God I hope this will be the last Sarah from the future. Derick & Carissa who would like to promote supporting each other through the transitions we face. Elle Bitter who would like to promote normalizing the use of tone indicators and my aunt Jeannie who would like to promote Christopher’s Haven. Our other $10 patrons are Kayla's dad, Maff, Martin Chiesl, Parker, Purple Hayes, Barefoot Backpacker, SongOStorm, Val, Alyson, Ani, Arcnes, Benjamin Ybarra, and Bones.
KAYLA: What is happening? What is going on?
SARAH: Our $15 patrons are Ace who would like to promote the writer Crystal Scherer, Andrew Hillum who would like to promote The Invisible Spectrum Podcast, Dia Chappell who would like to promote Twitch.tv/MelodyDia, Hector Murillo who would like to promote friends that are supportive, constructive, and help you grow as a better person, Nathaniel White who would like to promote NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com, Kayla’s Aunt Nina who would like to promote katemaggartart.com and… we have a new $15 patron, it’s Phoenix, Phoenix I don't know how to pronounce your last name. Is it Gaelic or is that H silent? Let me know. It's either like Gaelic Irish and the last sounds make a completely different sound than my brain wants to say it as or it's a silent H, one of the two
KAYLA: Okay, good to know
SARAH: But we did give you a little message Phoenix on the Patreon because I'm on it, I mean it was right before this podcast, but… uh
KAYLA: It was
SARAH: Let us know what you want to promote. And Schnell who would like to promote accepting that everyone is different and that's awesome. Our $20 patrons, we have a new $20 patron
KAYLA: Incredible
SARAH: It is Jacki Willenborg or Jacki Willenborg depending on what language we're in. Jacki, we also messaged you to ask you what you want to promote, I'm sorry if you got the message four times, I failed the first three and I don't think they went through but in case they did that will explain to you why you got approximately the same message four times. Uh…
KAYLA: Wait, a second, I think I know Jacki.
SARAH: Oh my God
KAYLA: If this is correct Jacki is one of the folks that I did the panel with
SARAH: Oh my God
KAYLA: When I did the communications conference weekend
SARAH: Oh my God
KAYLA: Jacki
SARAH: Jacki
KAYLA: I was like, “I know that name”
SARAH: And if you're not that person, we're just as excited
KAYLA: We're just as excited. We are
SARAH: Our other $20 patrons are Dragonfly and my mom and…
KAYLA: It is
SARAH: Hell, yeah
KAYLA: It is Jacki
SARAH: Hi Jacki
KAYLA: I think. It is literally the same name. But…
SARAH: Okay.
KAYLA: Hi Jacki. Love you
SARAH: Um, we're moving on. Dragonfly and my mom would like to promote donating to Alaa's GoFundMe. You will find the information in our description, please…
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: Donate, it makes such a difference. Thanks for listening, tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears
KAYLA: And until then… I’m so sleepy. Until then take good care of your cows
[END OF TRANSCRIPT]