322: Conjugal Visits

SARAH: Hey what's up? Hello! Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl (I'm Sarah, that's me.)

KAYLA: And a bi demisexual girl (That's me Kayla.)

SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.

KAYLA: On today's episode, ‘Conjugal Visits.’

BOTH: Sounds Fake But Okay

SARAH: Welcome back to the pod 

KAYLA: I feel like it has been forever. I think it has been exactly a week, but it feels like… 

SARAH: It has been the complete normal amount of time 

KAYLA: It feels like forever 

SARAH: For the first time in forever. I hope everyone who is a U.S. citizen has voted or has made a plan to vote.

KAYLA: We also hope you had a good ace week. We missed it.

SARAH: Equally important 

KAYLA: As usual. And we hope you had a spooky Halloween 

SARAH: Spooky Halloween 

KAYLA: Let’s cover them all. Anyway, yours was most important.

SARAH: Yes. Do we have any other housekeeping?

KAYLA: By the time this comes out… okay, yes, election day is Tuesday

SARAH: Mm-hmm 

KAYLA: Okay, please vote correctly you guys.

SARAH: Correctly?

KAYLA: You know what I'm saying, stopping being like that.

SARAH: Uh, yeah. If you think your vote doesn't matter shoot us a little message and we'll…

KAYLA: We’ll chat

SARAH: We’ll talk you down.

KAYLA: We'll chat. Please vote. It's so serious actually. Today I saw a video of people trying to go get passports in case they need to flee the country and they were turned away because too many people are doing that.

SARAH: Cool.

KAYLA: Uh, also if you're voting… well, I guess it's too late to vote absentee, so this is more of a story time, I voted absentee and my signature is so different now from what it was on my license that I got when I was 16 or whatever the last time I was… renewed it, that my, uh, township called me and they said, who the fuck signed your ballot? Because it can't have been you and I said it was me and then I had, they sent me a form to sign again and make sure it looks like my old one this time, so…

SARAH: Wild 

KAYLA: Don't do that, sign it

SARAH: How much has your signature changed?

KAYLA: Well now I just use the one I use for like the book because it's just three letters.

SARAH: Yeah 

KAYLA: It's way shorter and my original signature from when I was like 16 was just like my full like proper cursive full name. So, it looks wildly different because one is three letters and one is two full words, so 

SARAH: Yeah, I mean on my old licenses it was like my full name and now it's just, it's the one that I have… that I sign our books with.

KAYLA: Yeah, because like I'm not doing my full name anymore, I'm just going to do a couple of letters.

SARAH: So, if you ever want to forge our signatures, know that the ones that we sign our books with are the ones that we also use for everything else.

KAYLA: I don't think we should tell people that.

SARAH: It's too late now.

KAYLA: Is it?

SARAH: The Brothers Green were talking about it on a podcast once and one of them has a separate signature and one of them uses the same signature and if they can talk about it…

KAYLA: Okay, well if they told people then that's fine. You're right. Uh-oh.

SARAH: Did you just see those balloons? Zoom just gave me balloons.

KAYLA: Oh, on yours? No. It started glitching, I thought it was the internet, but I think it didn't want to show me your balloons.

SARAH: It’s the balloons. Um, but yeah, if they're, if they can be honest about that, I think we're just fine. Okay, great. Kayla, what are we talking about this week? And why am I the greatest?

KAYLA: This week for the second week in a row, Sarah came up with an episode idea the day before recording. Huge…

SARAH: In advance.

KAYLA: Um, in advance. So, this week we will be discussing conjugal visits.

SARAH: Indeed. Let's start with, what the fuck is a conjugal visit?

KAYLA: A conjugal visit, according to Wikipedia, is a scheduled period in which an inmate of a prison or jail is permitted to spend several hours or days in private with a visitor and the visitor is usually their legal partner. So typically, at least in the U.S., when you visit someone in jail or prison, you like sit behind, you either are in a room that is supervised and there's usually other people visiting as well and you're like sitting at a table.

SARAH: And you're not allowed to touch each other usually.

KAYLA: Yes

SARAH: Like you can… you're sitting at a table with each other, but you can't be like, hey.

KAYLA: Yes. So, it's either that or it's like, I think the classic like movie thing where you're like behind the glass and you're on the phone.

SARAH: Yeah.

KAYLA: Uh, but for this, you get to be by yourselves. Uh, I've seen some videos that they, there's like cabins or something kind of like on the premises of the prison and you go there for however, whatever the amount of time is.

SARAH: Hmm

KAYLA: So obviously this is not in a definition, but I think the like colloquial understanding is that it is a time to do sex.

SARAH: Yeah. Like when most people think of conjugal visits, they think of a visit to someone in prison to do the sex.

KAYLA: It even says on the Wikipedia that supplies such as soap, condoms, lubricant, bed liddens and towels may be provided.

SARAH: Oh. 

KAYLA: How nice is that?

SARAH: That's probably coming out of my tax dollars, I guess.

KAYLA: Yeah. Um, and I want to get into like the specific policies at some point because there are different policies by country and then in the U.S. by state. But I do think just to start like just baseline initial impressions, it is so wild that there are so many rights we do not afford to prisoners, but that this is one that some places do afford. And I'm just like, how did we come to that decision?

SARAH: It's seen as important enough, whereas we're still using inmates as slave labor, but, but, they need to fuck sometimes.

KAYLA: That's the thing is like, there is so much wrong with the prison industrial complex. And there are so many things such as like necessary things for the rehabilitation of people that are not given to prisoners, but they have just… some states or countries have decided that like sex is a baseline need. You know what I mean?

SARAH: Yeah.

KAYLA: Why? Why?

SARAH: Yeah. I mean, I just… it's interesting because like, I do believe that people who are incarcerated should have the right to maintain relationships with their loved ones and doing so is actually very important for anti-recidivism once they get out. Because if they lose all of their relationships with people on the outside, then they get out and they're less likely… they're more likely to end up back in prison. 

KAYLA: Yeah 

SARAH: So obviously I think that is important. Also, our prison industrial complex is, um, fucked up. But at the same time, my mind is like, this is what we're prioritizing? 

KAYLA: There are so many other things 

SARAH: Yeah 

KAYLA: Where the money should go, like, so, okay, I want to get into the history of this, at least for the United States because when I read this… 

SARAH: Yeah 

KAYLA: I was like, what the fuck?

SARAH: I'm trying to see if anyone did conjugal visits outside of the US before the US did and I'm not finding anything. So, let's dive into, um, to how it started in ye old United States of America.

KAYLA: So according to Wikipedia, the first state to implement conjugal visits was Mississippi in the Mississippi state penitentiary. And get a load of this shit, it was enacted to convince black male prisoners to work harder in their manual labor. This was done unofficially at first, but then became official policy at the penitentiary by the 1950s. So…

SARAH: I have an addition to that from vistacriminallaw.com 

KAYLA: Mm-hmm

SARAH: That says, at the time inmates were essentially just used as slaves, even visibly beaten if they broke the rules or failed to work hard enough, to provide positive encouragement for those who worked hard and followed the rules the prison brought prostitutes for the best inmates every Sunday. Eventually the prison also started allowing prisoners’ wives and girlfriends to visit. So according to Vista Criminal Law, it started with sex workers and then they started letting partners.

KAYLA: I love the detail that it's on Sunday, that is so not the point of any of this, but I'm like, oh.

SARAH: The Lord’s Day.

KAYLA: The Lord’s Day, bring them on in. Also, in 1974, there was a case in the district court for the Northern District of Ohio that prisons have no federal constitutional right to make conjugal visits available to spouses. But I'm confused by that because how does Ohio get to say anything about the federal constitution?

[00:10:00]

SARAH: The district courts are... it's confusing because some of the stuff that's brought against Trump is from the Southern District Court of New York or something. It's not necessarily always localized. I don't understand how it works, but...

KAYLA: Interesting. Anyway, so they don't have to do it, which is why not all states have it, I'm assuming.

SARAH: And which is why conjugal visits are not allowed in federal prisons.

KAYLA: Yes, that is true, I did just see that.

SARAH: Yeah. So, this started in Mississippi in the early 1900s. The idea eventually caught on, and over the years, many other states adopted the idea of letting wives spend time with their inmate husbands, with over one third of the states in the United States eventually enacting some type of conjugal visit program. Unfortunately, with the push to get tough on crime that took place in the 90s, many states got rid of these types of programs, which were seen as being soft on crime by giving prisoners sex visits when they should be being punished. Nowadays, the only four states that offer conjugal visits are California, Connecticut, New York, and Washington.

KAYLA: Apparently in New York, you can have… wait, what states did you say? Oh, yes, New York. Okay, I was reading that wrong, I thought it was just, they call it family visits, like the official term in a lot of places is extended family visits or family reunion visits 

SARAH: Yes 

KAYLA: Because other family members can attend, not just spouses, it looks like.

SARAH: Yeah. So, it looks like over time, in the states that have maintained it, which… and I was surprised at first that California was one of the states and looking at the states, it's California, New York, Washington, and Connecticut. And I was like…

KAYLA: It's an interesting grouping.

SARAH: Those are all pretty left-leaning states on average. 

KAYLA: Yeah 

SARAH: And I was surprised by that. But then reading about how it was revoked during the tough on crime period that it makes sense that those states would not revoke it.

KAYLA: It makes more sense. It also makes me surprised that it is Connecticut and not Massachusetts because overall, I think Massachusetts is more liberal than Connecticut. I mean, they're both, you know, East Coast states.

SARAH: But you've lived in both of them, so you know.

KAYLA: So, I'm an expert. Yeah. But no, that does make sense.

SARAH: Yeah. And here it says that in California, they're also called family visits. The real reason the state allows these types of inmate visitation is to provide those behind bars with ways to stay close to their families. It has profound benefits not only to inmates, but also the general public in the form of reduced crime rates and lower taxes. This one is saying that, notably in New York, where inmates can visit with extended family members, only 48% of these meetings were with a spouse.

KAYLA: Interesting.

SARAH: Even when the visit is with a spouse, most inmates say that while the chance to have sex with their partners was nice, the family visit was more about being intimate with the person they love for anywhere from 30 to 40 hours.

KAYLA: I will say, I've seen a couple of videos on TikTok of like wives or girlfriends packing for a conjugal visit, and they definitely did pack like condoms or whatever, but a lot of it was just like comfy clothes, movies to watch, like food. Actually, I don't know if they were allowed to bring food in. But it was all very like, I don't know, just like normal cozy things, which makes sense because like you said, it could be like 24 to 48 hours if like… they could be spending together in like a cabin or whatever. 

SARAH: Yeah 

KAYLA: So, I mean, it makes sense. And like, it's just so it's interesting because I, that makes sense to me, like, like what you were saying, it is important for people to maintain connections on the outside that are good, healthy connections so that they have a support system for when they get out and then they can integrate back into normal society.

SARAH: Yeah.

KAYLA: So, billing it as like family visits, especially if you have kids, and it's like you bring the whole family or whatever, that makes complete sense to me. I think the problem is that like, the pop culture view of it is that it's just sex and that's also how it started.

SARAH: Right. I think…

KAYLA: That is where its roots are.

SARAH: Yeah, I'm less concerned with the pop culture understanding of it because pop culture is often wrong.

KAYLA: What?

SARAH: And it's more salacious to be like, oh, it's sex time visits.

KAYLA: Yeah 

SARAH: But the fact that it started literally for the purpose of sex, with sex workers that were hired to make black slaves work harder.

KAYLA: Insane. What an insane thing to say.

SARAH: That's not cute.

KAYLA: No, no, it's not.

SARAH: So… hmm.

KAYLA: You know, what's interesting?

SARAH: Yeah.

KAYLA: Getting into other countries.

SARAH: Yeah, let's do that.

KAYLA: The UK does not allow conjugal visits, but home visits, with a greater emphasis on building other links with the outside world, are allowed. So, home visits are usually granted to prisoners who have a few weeks to a few months remaining of a long sentence.

SARAH: Mm

KAYLA: So, they're more likely to be allowed for prisoners with a low risk, obviously, because they're also about to get out.

SARAH: Yeah 

KAYLA: But that makes a lot of sense to me.

SARAH: And it's like you're easing into leaving prison, yeah.

KAYLA: Yes. Right, because the reintegration, especially if it's a long sentence… 

SARAH: It’s so difficult 

KAYLA: Is extremely difficult.

SARAH: Yeah 

KAYLA: So that, I'm like, yeah 

SARAH: Yeah

KAYLA: Makes sense. Since 2013, Turkey has allowed conjugal visits as a reward for well-behaved prisoners. 

SARAH: Mm

KAYLA: In Spain, conjugal visits every four to eight weeks are allowed and can be up to three hours. Couples are provided with condoms, shower facilities, and clean towels. See it's that, that to me feels like it's just a sex thing because it's like it's only three hours, up to three hours. And then they're like… 

SARAH: Yeah

KAYLA: Here you go, which I guess it makes sense because you don't want anyone like transmitting diseases or whatever.

SARAH: Well, in California, at least, one of the rules is that you cannot have a sexually transmitted disease.

KAYLA: Interesting. Hm. Hm.

SARAH: Which I understand… 

KAYLA: But also… 

SARAH: So, what about people who are like HIV positive?

KAYLA: Right. Yeah. Hm.

SARAH: So.

KAYLA: That I don't know how to feel about.

SARAH: Yeah, it is also interesting looking at these different countries being like, like in Canada, all inmates in federal correctional facilities with the exception of those on disciplinary restrictions or at risk of family violence are permitted private family visit of up to 72 hours duration once every two months, which seems quite frequent.

KAYLA: Yeah.

SARAH: To me, which is probably a good thing, but my American ass is like, whoa.

KAYLA: Yeah. Hold on. I need to fact check this.

SARAH: Okay.

KAYLA: Okay. I'm not finding… I'm clearly not looking well. I don't know that there is a great way to look up any of this, but… because the words I was using were not getting me any results that were helpful. But according to this, in Russia, since a campaign of prison reform in 2001, well behaved prisoners are granted an 18-day holiday furlough to see loved ones and then get extended on site family visits approximately once per month.

SARAH: Hm.

KAYLA: That's wild.

SARAH: I don't know how much I believe that.

KAYLA: I agree. Because I also Googled Russia prison 18-day holiday and I'm just getting a lot of news stories about bad things that happen in Russian prison.

SARAH: Yeah. I've heard some interviews with, um, there was a US journalist who was in Russian prison for a really long time and he recently got out, Evan Gershkovich.

KAYLA: Yes. I just saw some articles about him.

SARAH: Yes. And there’s also… um, what's his face? Um, okay, I can't fucking find it, but I have listened to episodes of Pod Save the World where they have interviewed people who were political prisoners in Russia. One of them was, um, one of the, she was a woman who was released in the recent prisoner swap and her daughters were supposed to, um, see Taylor Swift in, I think Poland, but that day she got relieved. So, they had to go to the US to see their mom for the first time in however many months.

KAYLA: Yeah 

SARAH: And then they were like, could we please get this family some Taylor Swift tickets 

KAYLA: Oh my Gosh 

SARAH: So that they could see Taylor Swift?

KAYLA: Yeah. Oh my Lord.

SARAH: Um, but just like listening to their stories. Now to be fair, those are foreign nationals.

KAYLA: Here's… okay. So, the article that was referenced in this Wikipedia page was from 2006 and it was about this like prison reform that Russia was doing. And some journalists, it seems got some like inside access into like how they were fixing up prisons.

SARAH: Mm-hmm

KAYLA: But so first of all, this is from 2006, which is just decades ago now, if you can believe that 

SARAH: Almost 20 years.

KAYLA: And also, like how much are they just making the prison look nicer because there's journalists coming to look.

SARAH: Right. Exactly.

KAYLA: So, I don't know about all that.

SARAH: I don't know. Um, in a minute, I think we should go into same sex conjugal visits because that's an interesting thing.

KAYLA: Yes. Yeah.

SARAH: But…

KAYLA: Um, huh?

SARAH: Mm?

KAYLA: In Mexico, conjugal visits are a universal practice independent of a prisoner's marital status. And in some correctional facilities, entire families are allowed to live in prisons with their imprisoned relative for extended periods.

[00:20:00]

SARAH: Yeah, I saw that. In Brazil, male prisoners are eligible to be granted conjugal visits for both heterosexual and homosexual relationships. While women's conjugal visits are tightly regulated if granted at all.

KAYLA: Of course.

SARAH: This does need additional citation though, so.

KAYLA: I will say, I feel like in pop culture, at least, conjugal visits are always talked about where it's a male prisoner and his wife come visit.

SARAH: Oh, yeah 

KAYLA: I've never seen any discussion of a female prisoner having a conjugal visit.

SARAH: Yeah.

KAYLA: Ever.

SARAH: So, let's do a slight pivot to same sex conjugal visits and I will start by saying, uh, by reading this little bit that says in June, 2007, the California Department of Corrections announced it would allow same sex conjugal visits. The policy was enacted to comply with a 2005 state law requiring state agencies to give the same rights to domestic partners that heterosexual couples receive. The new rules allow for visits only by registered married same sex couples or domestic partners who are not themselves incarcerated. Further, the same sex marriage or domestic partnership must have been established before the prisoner was incarcerated. So, there are rules about what counts as a partner in this situation, but it also seems like the definition of family visits has gotten broader since then

KAYLA: Yeah 

SARAH: So, maybe it might not matter as much anymore. Yeah, it doesn't, it seems a little like wobbly on whether you have to be legally married.

KAYLA: Yeah 

SARAH: I do… because I was seeing, I think this was for a different country, but it had to be like a sustained... oh, I can't find it, but I liked the wording, but it had to be like a sustained stable relationship.

KAYLA: Yeah. Which I think makes sense. I also think it's very interesting that they're saying that you had to be in a partnership before you were in prison 

SARAH: Before, yeah

KAYLA: Because a whole other thing that we're not even getting into is like people dating prisoners, like people starting to date prisoners while the person is already in prison. Well, not like you were dating and then the person went to prison, but like you started being a pen pal to a prisoner and now you are dating or like you met in some other way because girl, that is so crazy.

SARAH: I also see it from a security standpoint, why they would be like, why would we let this person… why would we let you have this conjugal visit with this person who you didn't need? Like, we don't know their intention with you now

KAYLA: Yeah 

SARAH: And like in California, like they… both parties get searched before and after to make sure that nothing is being smuggled in or out.

KAYLA: Yeah 

SARAH: So, you know.

KAYLA: I just like, why would you want to start dating someone…

SARAH: I don't know.

KAYLA: Who's already in prison? I could understand the argument for you were already with them and then they went to prison as long as they didn't do anything, absolutely bat shit.

SARAH: Yeah. I mean definitely 

KAYLA: If it was, I guess, whatever, I guess if it was a chill crime that landed them in prison somehow.

SARAH: Yeah. Like tax fraud.

KAYLA: Yeah. Like Martha Stewart, that I'm like, okay, yeah, stay together.

SARAH: This is Sarah from the Future and this is so not important, but I just, the more I think about it, the more I realize that someone who committed tax fraud, like honestly, if they commit tax fraud in the United States, they're probably quite rich and doing it to avoid having to pay taxes so that they can be richer and that they don't have to put their taxes towards like public schools and shit. So honestly, I would be much happier if someone were like, I committed petty theft, I was dealing marijuana, than if they were committing tax fraud, like there are just better crimes than tax fraud. I think that was a bad example I gave and I apologize.

Or someone who was wrongfully incarcerated.

KAYLA: Yes, wrongfully incarcerated.

SARAH: Many of the people are wrongfully incarcerated.

KAYLA: Obviously. Lots, too many in fact.

SARAH: So many.

KAYLA: But to… like that is signing yourself up for the worst kind of long-distance relationship

SARAH: Oh, yeah 

KAYLA: Because that's not even just like, you can't see them. Like you have to like write letters and like maybe talk on the phone for like five minutes a week. 

SARAH: Yeah 

KAYLA: Why would you do that? What are you getting out of that relationship?

SARAH: Yeah.

KAYLA: You know what's great? Not shocking. In France, conjugal visits are a thing and can last up to 72 hours…

SARAH: It’s three days 

KAYLA: And they have many apartments with two small bedrooms, a kitchen and a dining area. Let's go France. Okay, sorry, we were talking about gay people.

SARAH: This doesn't… the same sex conjugal visits, it doesn't have anything about France on it. Not to say that it's not allowed there, it just may not be completely comprehensive. There's a whole big section on Columbia. So, I guess there was a case in 2001 of a lesbian in the Risaralda Women's Prison, which was not the first case regarding same sex conjugal visitation in the country, but it was the first time that they ruled in favor of the inmate.

KAYLA: Mm

SARAH: I guess there was another lesbian inmate who had been campaigning since 1994 for the same right and in 1999 her case became the first ever sexual orientation related case presented before the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights.

KAYLA: Wow.

SARAH: Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But… oh, Jesus Christ. So, they allowed it in 2001, but this other woman, Marta Alvarez, the one who had been campaigning earlier, she had argued that her rights were being infringed upon because they denied her the right to conjugal visits. While the Colombian government admitted its failure to grant conjugal visitation to Alvarez constituted inhuman and discriminatory treatment, it continued to deny such visits

KAYLA: Oh

SARAH: Arguing reasons of security, discipline and morality. Alvarez was also subjected to retaliatory disciplinary measures, including being transferred to a men's prison… 

KAYLA: Oh 

SARAH: Which ceased following a domestic and international protest campaign. So, they said, you want to have a conjugal visit with a woman? Yeah, it's wrong of us to not let you do that. But we're going to continue to not let you do that. And we're also going to send you to a men's prison to punish you.

KAYLA: Why would they even admit that they were wrong at that point?

SARAH: I don't know.

KAYLA: Like that makes it so much… Why would they say like, just say nothing, if you're going to be like that?

SARAH: Yeah, but also punishing someone by transferring them to a men's prison is… 

KAYLA: It's so wild.

SARAH: Because the implications of what that means… 

KAYLA: Yeah 

SARAH: Is, um, really fucking gross.

KAYLA: Uh-huh 

SARAH: You're clearly not treating this person like a human person.

KAYLA: No.

SARAH: Hoo hoo. In Mexico, they allow same sex conjugal visits. UK, it's the same situation where they don't have conjugal visits, but they… home visits are allowed for same sex couples.

KAYLA: Canada seems like the most… I feel like for some reason, this is the one I'm like, yeah, this is chill. So, in Canada, all inmates in federal correctional facilities, except those with disciplinary restrictions or at risk for family violence which I think is…

SARAH: I already read that 

KAYLA: You already read Canada? Where was I?

SARAH: I don't know.

KAYLA: Did you read all this stuff about foster parents? Siblings?

SARAH: No, I didn't.

KAYLA: Okay.

SARAH: Read that part.

KAYLA: Bitch. Eligible visitors who may not be themselves prison inmates are spouse or common law partner of at least six months, children, parents, foster parents, siblings, grandparents, and persons with whom in the opinion of the institutional head, the inmate has a close familial bond with.

SARAH: Hmm.

KAYLA: Slay, I think.

SARAH: Food is provided by the institution, but paid for by the inmates and visitors who are responsible for cleaning the unit after the visit, prison staff have regular contact with the inmate and visitors.

KAYLA: Those are AirBnB rules.

SARAH: Yeah, it's fucking AirBnB ass shit.

KAYLA: What the heck I got a cleaning fee? See that to me, I like, because that is clearly billed as like, not just sex. 

SARAH: Yeah 

KAYLA: It's like a family, like maintaining relationships with your family thing. And listen, is it really that I have a problem with people having sex? No. And that's fine. You can have sex. It's just the fact that that, at least in the past, it seems like we're maybe making some strides, at least in the past, that that was valued so much more highly than other basic human rights.

SARAH: Mm-hmm. It was also viewed as a basic human right for male inmates 

KAYLA: Yes 

SARAH: But not necessarily for female inmates.

KAYLA: Yes. And even, you know, at the beginning, obviously not so much a basic human right, just more as a bribery.

SARAH: Yes 

KAYLA: With the clear intention that like, well, what do people want the most? Sex

SARAH: I was about to say dick and then I was like, wait, no, pussy.

KAYLA: Vagina. I just like, that is such a precedent, but I'm just like, what are we doing?

SARAH: Um, I'm on a Reddit page for, it's r/slash prison wives 

KAYLA: Great 

SARAH: And they're discussing conjugal visits, talking about in some places, like you have to have been married for a year before they're approved before you can have conjugal visits. So, I guess technically you… I guess, I don't know the details of this, but like, does that mean that you could have gotten married while they… can you get married to someone while they're in prison?

KAYLA: Yes.

[00:30:00]

SARAH: So, you could get married to someone while they were in prison, but you would have have to have been married to them for a year before you could do a conjugal visit?

KAYLA: I'm guessing, so. Also, you know, what's crazy? I don't know this for a fact, I'm just assuming this, that if you get married to someone while they're in prison, you have to get the rings. I can't get the rings. I have to buy my own ring because you're in prison? That sucks.

SARAH: Uh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah

KAYLA: That sucks.

SARAH: Oh, okay.

KAYLA: That's all.

SARAH: Okay. Okay. There's a Reddit, this is on r/slash prison rhymes. It was marked as not safe for work and it said, conjugal visit and toys. And so, I was like, oh, we're talking about sex toys. And then I clicked on it and it was like, the kids and I are going to see my husband for the first time. And I was like, wait

KAYLA: Wait, but why was it marked as not safe?

SARAH: We've never had a family visit before. I'm packing up our stuff and getting ready. And I'm wondering if a small bullet adult toy is allowed. So, it is about sex toys.

KAYLA: Okay. Wow. I feel as though I've been… every which way.

SARAH: Um, like this person saying in the guidelines for my man's facility, it says no electronics or things that you have to plug in and has a list of approved items 

KAYLA: What if I have to plug in my phone?

SARAH: This person goes, may I ask, are your kids present or do you have two separate visits? And this person's OP says, yes, they're present. I'm not exactly sure how it goes though, but he said, we get taken to an apartment type place with the rest of the families. So, you're just fucking with your kids?

KAYLA: I have to hope that if you're like going with a full family, they give you more than one bedroom.

SARAH: I would hope so. There's this video that's been going around from TikTok of this insane fucking woman. Her husband is also insane, I don't want to be sexist.

KAYLA: Let's be equal here.

SARAH: Um, who has seven children 

KAYLA: Ew

SARAH: And is pregnant or she's pregnant with her seventh kid or the number seven is involved and she's currently pregnant. And they live in a one-bedroom apartment.

KAYLA: No, no, no, no.

SARAH: And she's talking about like how she lives her life and like, you know, how she just loves having like… and she was trying to convince her husband to let her have more kids. And so, she was like, please interact with this post so that we can get more reliable income so that my husband will let me have more kids. And then she was like, well, this is how I take the main room and I turned into the kid's bedroom at night. All of the kids sleep in one room and then she and her husband get the bedroom.

KAYLA: So, the living room turns into the bedroom for the seven children?

SARAH: For the kids. Mm-hmm

KAYLA: How big is this? Like small, I'm assuming not very big.

SARAH: Not very big. At first when I was like one bedroom, seven kids, I was like, are you fucking in front of your kids? Like you're pregnant.

KAYLA: Yeah 

SARAH: Like… 

KAYLA: Why aren't the parents sleeping in the living room?

SARAH: Because they need to have the privacy to get pregnant more. And then all these people who are saying like, no, like this is, you're not a responsible parent.

KAYLA: No 

SARAH: Like if you can't afford to feed your kids and you're out here being like, I really want more kids. 

KAYLA: No 

SARAH: Like I understand that sometimes shit happens and you're in a situation where like, oops, I'm pregnant now and I'm not in a situation to get rid of this baby, I understand that.

KAYLA: Yeah, but to actively plan for it when you know you are not financially stable enough to support that many children, that's different and that's fucked up.

SARAH: Yeah. And then there were a lot of people in their replies being like, you know, as… I grew up in a situation like this and as the oldest child, like it's hard enough being the oldest of many kids when you are financially stable.

KAYLA: Yeah 

SARAH: Like my dad was one of eight kids and they were financially stable and they all still had to share a bedroom because they don't have a fucking… bedroom in house.

KAYLA: Mansion, yeah. 

SARAH: But it was reasonable and they were able to feed all of their kids and take care of their kids. Like, but it was still hard for the older siblings because they did have to contribute in some ways to like watching some of the younger kids. Like you say this with the Duggars about like the older kids just are basically like third, fourth, fifth parents.

KAYLA: Yeah.

SARAH: But it's just like, ugh.

KAYLA: That's disgusting. That's fucked up. Why? Why does she want more kids so bad?

SARAH: I don't know.

KAYLA: What's the point?

SARAH: I'm like, is it a weird fetish? Like what?

KAYLA: I mean some people do have that, but.

SARAH: Like love being pregnant. Like...

KAYLA: Yeah, but people have that.

SARAH: I know.

KAYLA: It's like a breeding kink.

SARAH: It freaks me out.

KAYLA: That's like the worst thing for you.

SARAH: It's horrible.

KAYLA: You hate pregnant people.

SARAH: Also, like pregnancy is horrible.

KAYLA: Yep.

SARAH: I've never been pregnant and I know this. It destroys your fucking body.

KAYLA: Yeah. Is she like physically okay?

SARAH: I don't know.

KAYLA: The fuck? I'm just trying to think like, how do you even fit, like you have one bedroom and nine people live in this place. Where do you like store everything?

SARAH: That's also like not allowed. Like...

KAYLA: Oh yeah. No.

SARAH: Like it's a safety issue.

KAYLA: Yeah. But like, where does all the clothes go? Like...

SARAH: I don't know.

KAYLA: The storage. Where does all the food go? The kitchen…

SARAH: I don't know.

KAYLA: It is going to be a one-bedroom sized kitchen, where does all the food for your a thousand children go?

SARAH: Yeah. I also saw in their reply, someone was talking about how they were in a situation like that when they were young, where they had a similar amount of kids in a one bedroom and their landlords were willing to like turn the other cheek and pretend there weren't 6,000 children living in this apartment on the grounds that the kids were like well-behaved and like didn't cause any problems.

KAYLA: Like they’re dogs.

SARAH: Yeah. But because of that, the other kids in the neighborhood viewed these kids as an easy target because whenever they got bullied or anything happened to them, their parents would be like, don't fight back, don't cause any trouble because if you cause any trouble, we will get kicked out of our home. 

KAYLA: Oh my God

SARAH: And so, these kids would get bullied all the time because they're an easy target and they can't do anything about it because if they do something about it, their family might lose their home.

KAYLA: That's fucked up.

SARAH: The person said that eventually once they were like, I think more in middle school and like a little bit bigger, they started like actually physically fighting back

KAYLA: Slay, obviously  

SARAH: And then it stopped. But like, girl, you shouldn't have to, like, if your kid Is being bullied, you shouldn't be like, yeah, just deal with it.

KAYLA: Yeah. This took quite the turn.

SARAH: Anyway, this person is asking questions about conjugal visits in California and they were like, she was like, I want to get cute while I'm there. Like, am I allowed to have makeup? Is there a limit? Can I have eyelash glue?

KAYLA: I love a practical queen.

SARAH: Yeah. A lot of the questions are just like, the responses from people are just like, you're going to have to call the facility and ask 

KAYLA: Yeah 

SARAH: Because it really just varies from country to country, state to state, facility to facility. I guess there are like Facebook groups for specific facilities 

KAYLA: Facilities

SARAH: Like for the partners of people.

KAYLA: Oh my God, it's like, they're the WAGs of the prison.

SARAH: The what?

KAYLA: The wives and girlfriends…

SARAH: Wives and girlfriends? Yes. Yeah 

KAYLA: Of the athletes, you know? 

SARAH: Oh, yeah, yeah 

KAYLA: Like they have like a club, they'll like have a club and they'll like do the games together 

SARAH: Wives for prisoners?

KAYLA: The prison WAGs. That could easily be a reality TV show.

SARAH: Yeah.

KAYLA: I'm kind of shocked it's not.

SARAH: Yeah.

KAYLA: I'm not saying it should be. I think it could end up being very problematic if done incorrectly, which it probably would be.

SARAH: But why haven't they done it?

KAYLA: But where is it? I'm just shocked.

SARAH: This person is talking about first conjugal visit anxiety. They're newlyweds… 

KAYLA: Why?

SARAH: But they've known each other since they were teens and in their early 40s, they decided to get romantically involved.

KAYLA: Aww

SARAH: He suffers from a little anxiety. He's been in prison for 29 years and understandably, he's nervous about having sex.

KAYLA: I'm back to being confused about why they're married.

SARAH: They've known each other since… Okay. It is a little confusing. If he has been in prison for 29 years 

KAYLA: Yeah

SARAH: Let's assume, let's say he was 21 to make the math easy. Let's say he was 21 when he was incarcerated.

KAYLA: Mm-hmm

SARAH: That makes him 50 now 

KAYLA: Right. And they got involved when they were 40

SARAH: In their early 40s

KAYLA: But while he was in prison? 

SARAH: Yes, but they've known each other since they were teens. I think that makes more sense.

KAYLA: I still don't understand why she would do that, but carry on.

SARAH: If you really love a person, I guess, you know?

KAYLA: I guess.

SARAH: But… this person is cute. They were like, he suffers from a little anxiety. He's understandably a little bit nervous about having sex. He's a pretty hardcore guy. Like how or what can I do to help him relax without hurting his ego?

KAYLA: Oh no, manly man.

SARAH: Because like even if he had had sex before 

KAYLA: Oh, a long time 

SARAH: Yeah, if it's his first conjugal visit and he has been incarcerated for 29 years, like…

KAYLA: He's a born again

SARAH: Yeah. In r/slash army, why don't we have conjugal visits on deployment?

KAYLA: Imagine, I mean, because they could be deployed anywhere.

SARAH: Uh-huh 

KAYLA: Imagine, they just like fly, they fly everybody in.

SARAH: Mm-hmm. The only conjugal visit I got in Iraq was beating off in a porta shitter. Great. Thank you for that info.

KAYLA: No, I didn't need that. I didn't need all that.

[00:40:00]

SARAH: I took a four-day pass in Dubai from the Horn of Africa, and I met my girlfriend, now wife, for an intercontinental dick date, and this person goes, when the pussy is so good, you fly it halfway around the world just to expedite the dicking.

KAYLA: No, no, no, no, no.

SARAH: This person goes, you have a platoon for a reason, find some other chics to beat, plenty of homies out there with dump trucks.

KAYLA: Oh my God. Good Lord.

SARAH: Oh, no. This person goes, bud, you want to ship a bunch of spouses to Afghanistan to bump uglies with y'all in Afghanistan heat and sand, and then ship them back and act like that'll solve drama? Here's what that gets you, Sandy crotch, 30 seconds of sex, dehydrated, a bunch of sexually frustrated spouses all on the same plane talking shit about your weak pullout game. Just whack it in the porta potty like everyone else.

KAYLA: Oh my God.

SARAH: Anyway, I mean, we could get into the whole thing about military and their whole got to let them fuck so that they can kill more Afghans, you know, whatever.

KAYLA: I don't want to talk about it.

SARAH: Not cool, not cool and fun. Anyway, I think… are we done? Anything else to say?

KAYLA: I think so.

SARAH: Great. Kayla, what's our poll for this week?

KAYLA: What do you think of a conjugal visit? Thoughts?

SARAH: Sure. Can I tell you ever since I thought of this idea, I don't know if it was because of this or… is the cat on your lap?

KAYLA: Yeah.

SARAH: Oh, very nice.

KAYLA: It would be very nice if she could just leave me alone for two seconds of my life. Maybe. She has a whole other parent.

SARAH: She does

KAYLA: I'm convinced she doesn't know about at this point.

SARAH: Amazing.

KAYLA: Like I'm convinced she doesn't know. Continue.

SARAH: There's a song by Fall Out Boy it's, the lyric mentions conjugal visits, “they say your head can be a prison, then these are just conjugal visits,” that is the lyric and that one lyric has just been on loop in my brain.

KAYLA: That is funny. That is funny.

SARAH: So, anyway. It’s called The Take Over The Break’s Over by Fall Out Boy. I don't recognize the name of this song, but I know this line and I know that it's Fall Out Boy. So, I think that's just a result of the fact that Fall Out Boy song names are so long that I don't remember any of them.

KAYLA: Yeah, fair.

SARAH: Especially the early ones. Okay. Anyway. Great. Kayla, what’s your beef and your juice for this week?

KAYLA: My juice is blowing your nose in the shower.

SARAH: Mm-hmm. Very good.

KAYLA: I feel like I must've talked about this before 

SARAH: I think you have 

KAYLA: But I love doing that. My beef is being in the physical state where you need to be blowing your nose in the shower, that's not fun.

SARAH: I see. My nose is always being runny. It's a constant state of being.

KAYLA: Well, here's the problem I'm having, I have like a bit of a… I don't know if it's like a cold or if it's just a reaction because the weather has been changing here a ton where it's like 71 week and then the thirties and forties and seventies again.

SARAH: Yeah 

KAYLA: So, my body is like, whoa. So, I've had like a scratchy throat and my nose has been sniffly this week, but also so dry. 

SARAH: Mm

KAYLA: So, I've been sniffling, but there's nothing to sniffle. Like… if you don't want to hear about my boogers, skip ahead, I suppose, but like just crust with boogers crusted in my nose and just like, and just full of blood and just like, why? 

SARAH: Why?

KAYLA: Why?

SARAH: Yeah.

KAYLA: I've had to put Vaseline. I've been Vaseline-ing the inside of my nostrils.

SARAH: Yeah. Sometimes you got to do it.

KAYLA: Why? So that's also…

SARAH: For lubrication.

KAYLA: Just like, what has my life become?

SARAH: My beef is that my throat also right now, as we speak, it was not like this like two hours ago, but now it's like-

KAYLA: You caught it from me.

SARAH: Yeah. I caught it.

KAYLA: Yeah.

SARAH: It's not like, it's like, it's not like I'm sick and my throat hurts.

KAYLA: Yeah 

SARAH: It's like a something, you know?

KAYLA: Yeah.

SARAH: Maybe because it's getting colder outside? I don't know. My juice. I got a new suitcase.

KAYLA: I saw it.

SARAH: I haven't opened it yet, but I did finally take it out of the box.

KAYLA: Good. First step.

SARAH: Because I've had the same suitcase for over a decade and my mom keeps being like, Sarah, get a new suitcase. And I'm like, it works fine.

KAYLA: I just threw out my childhood transport suitcase like a couple of months ago. And I've had that since I like, I think it was under 10.

SARAH: Mine is, it's an LL Bean suitcase with my initials on it.

KAYLA: Slay 

SARAH: And when I went to summer camp at one point, I don't know what year it was that I went to summer camp that I did this, but I had, um, I had bright orange duct tape. And so, I put a piece of bright orange duct tape with my last name on it on the bag so it would be easier to identify.

KAYLA: Sure.

SARAH: And that piece of duct tape is still on the bag.

KAYLA: I love that.

SARAH: It has been at least a decade. And I told my mom, I was like, look, when this duct tape falls off, I will get a new bag.

KAYLA: That’s when it’s time, yeah 

SARAH: Because like it has been slowly kind of like peeling off, but it's still there. But then when I got home in July and I was unpacking, the zipper broke. So, I actually had to get a new one

KAYLA: Duct tape outlasted the zipper.

SARAH: It did. Yeah.

KAYLA: That’s tragic. Wow

SARAH: And I was like, I could try and fix the zipper or I could just get a new fucking suitcase.

KAYLA: Yeah, perhaps

SARAH: So, I now have a hard suitcase and it was kind of expensive, but I view it as an investment.

KAYLA: Yeah. I mean, hopefully the best.

SARAH: And I'm an adult.

KAYLA: Another several decades.

SARAH: I hope so. Um, but yes, this is the first time I've had a hard suitcase and it has four wheels. 

KAYLA: That's very fun.

SARAH: My carry-on still only has two wheels, which is less… It's kind of more important that your carry-on has two wheels than that your other one does.

KAYLA: Yeah. My carry-on has four wheels, but they are kind of like the wheels of a shopping cart. So, it kind of just goes sideways 

SARAH: Cool 

KAYLA: Because they're, I don't know if it's like someone threw it too hard when they were unloading luggage one time and the wheels got fucked up, but they're just not very good anymore.

SARAH: Great. Well, you can tell us about your beef, your juice, your suitcase on our social media @soundsfakepod. The brand is away in case anyone is curious.

KAYLA: Get that sponsorship

SARAH: Um, I did, I got coupon off of it too. It was still expensive, but I got a coupon.

KAYLA: Huge. Huge

SARAH: You can tell us about your beef and your juice on our social media @soundsfakepod. We also have Patreon, patreon.com/soundsfakepod. We have a new $2 patron, it's Anthony Pizzo. Thank you, Anthony.

KAYLA: I saw the email come in that Anthony Pizzo had become a patron and I really thought it was Anthony Pizza. 

SARAH: Sorry

KAYLA: So I am, I will be honest, slightly disappointed, but still excited.

SARAH: In my youth I knew someone with the last name Pizzo, so I did not read it as pizza.

KAYLA: That's too bad.

SARAH: Sorry. 

KAYLA: Good to know 

SARAH: Our $5 patrons who we're promoting this week are Edward Hayes-Holgate, Emily Jean, ffinasfs, Galvin Ford, and Green_Sarah. Our $10 patrons who we are promoting this week are Derick & Carissa who would like to promote supporting each other through the transitions we face. Elle Bitter who would like to promote normalizing the use of tone indicators /srs and also giraffes. My Aunt Jeannie who would like to promote Christopher’s Haven. Kayla's dad who would like to promote JandiCreations.com and Maff who would like to promote the Don't Should Sweatshirt. It makes a great gift for Christmas, which is now upcoming.

KAYLA: Deceptive. Um, back to Elle Bitter and the giraffes, I’m so sorry, I meant to say this earlier and then I forgot.

SARAH: We did have housekeeping.

KAYLA: Yeah, sorry. You can see the pictures of Elle Bitter's giraffes and walking dad's ex's car in the ocean on our Instagram.

SARAH: Yeah 

KAYLA: So please view that because what the fuck.

SARAH: Mm-hmm, @soundsfakepod. Our other $10 patrons are Martin Chiesl, Olivia O’Shea, Parker, Phoenix Leodinh, Purple Hayes, Barefoot Backpacker, SongOStorm, Val, Alastor, Alyson, Ani, Arcnes, Benjamin Ybarra, Bones, Celina Dobson, and Clare Olsen. Our $15 patrons are Ace who would like to promote the writer Crystal Scherer, Andrew Hillum who would like to promote the Invisible Spectrum Podcast, Hector Murillo who would like to promote friends that are supportive, constructive, and help you grow as a better person, Nathaniel White who would like to promote NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com, Kayla’s Aunt Nina who would like to promote katemaggartart.com and Schnell who would like to promote accepting that everyone is different and that's awesome. Our $20 patrons are Dragonfly, Dr. Jacki, My Mom, and River who would like to promote Dr. Jacki being Dr. Jacki, and suitcases?

KAYLA: Mm-hmm.

SARAH: No, my mom does want to promote the fact that I got a new suitcase. My mom thinks that you should probably get a new suitcase. If you have to think about whether or not you need a new suitcase, my mom probably thinks you should get one. Thanks for listening, tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.

KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your cows.

[END OF TRANSCRIPT]

Sounds Fake But Okay