Ep 323: The 4B Movement
SARAH: Hey, what's up? Hello. Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl. (I'm Sarah, that's me.)
KAYLA: I'm a bi-demisexual girl. (That's me, Kayla.)
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.
KAYLA: On today's episode, the 4B movement.
BOTH: Sounds Fake But Okay.
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod.
KAYLA: Hello.
SARAH: What's up?
KAYLA: Coming to you live from this.
SARAH: Uh huh. How's everyone holding up?
KAYLA: LOL.
SARAH: We won't talk about it. Um, do we have any housekeeping?
KAYLA: Um, I've seen… I think we don't talk about the Discord enough, because I saw that we got a lot of new joiners to the Discord after our listener… We mentioned that people were talking about the listener lore drop episode in there.
SARAH: Mm
KAYLA: And people were like, “Oh, I didn't… I heard about the Discord for the first time.” So, we have a Discord that the listeners hang out in and it's a really, really lovely place.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Especially honestly, right now, if you need some queer love and support, you want to talk to other aspec folks, it's a very nice place to be.
SARAH: You can help us grow a tree.
KAYLA: I have not looked at the tree in ages. Do you still do that?
SARAH: Treeador is very tall.
KAYLA: That's very exciting.
SARAH: Tredador is very good. I believe we're now ranked in like the 700s.
KAYLA: Okay, we are.
SARAH: Mm hmm. Shout out to Treeador.
KAYLA: I love that.
SARAH: All right. Yeah. Join our Discord if you want to water a digital tree. There is no benefit.
KAYLA: No, just fun
SARAH: It's just a tree.
KAYLA: Um, I think that we should do another listener lore drop next week.
SARAH: Mm
KAYLA: What do you think?
SARAH: I wouldn't be against it.
KAYLA: Okay, so I'll put the link to the submission form in the description of this episode so you can tell us your Reddit ‘Am I the asshole?’ style stories?
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: I also updated the form now so you can upload reference photos and things of that nature and we also have… we have updates from last time stories too, so
SARAH: Mm
KAYLA: We can do that next week. Look at us, planning for next week.
SARAH: Hey, I came up with this episode…
KAYLA: I know you did
SARAH: Last week.
KAYLA: Like two weeks ago
SARAH: No, it was last week. It would have been… I think it was the day after we decided not to pod last week.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But it was still in advance of this week.
KAYLA: True. And thank you for everyone's understanding for us taking last week off, we really just needed to sit around and rot in silence.
SARAH: Also, especially since we usually record on Wednesdays, so
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Fun times
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: If you're listening to this far in the future, don't worry about it.
KAYLA: You think and look at the date. I think it’s…
SARAH: Yeah. Okay, but if they're not American, they're not going to be like, “oh, yeah, a date that will live in infamy.”
KAYLA: I don't know, man. I've heard from a lot of international people that they're like…
SARAH: Valid.
KAYLA: They were hyper aware.
SARAH: Very valid.
KAYLA: Of what we were up to
SARAH: Kayla, what are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: This week we are talking about the 4B movement.
SARAH: Which is directly related.
KAYLA: Yeah, that's the thing. You were like, we're not going to talk about it. But like it is like…
SARAH: We're only going to talk about it in context.
KAYLA: Interesting.
SARAH: Because we exist in the context.
KAYLA: Into the context. Oh, I can't even do that. I can’t.
SARAH: We're talking about the 4B movement. Kayla, I have a question for you. Did you know what the 4B movement was prior to the past like two weeks?
KAYLA: I did because of you bringing it up on a past episode, actually.
SARAH: Nice.
KAYLA: I think that was the first time I had heard about it was when you brought it up. Maybe I'd seen a little bit online beforehand.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: But I don't remember which episode, but some episode in the past you brought it up. But that was before it was happening stateside.
SARAH: Yes. So yeah, apparently, I've mentioned it on this podcast. I believe it.
KAYLA: At least that's what I remember. Who knows?
SARAH: Yeah, I mean, I was somewhat familiar with it just because it is a movement that originated in and is primarily based in Korea and is a reaction to the horrible misogyny and the disrespect built into, you know, everyday life for Korean women.
KAYLA: Hello
SARAH: And since I exist in K-pop spaces, it comes up.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But if you're not familiar with what it is, we shall tell you. I actually did some research for this episode.
KAYLA: Oh my God. I didn't.
SARAH: Everybody clap and cheer. Okay.
KAYLA: Yay.
SARAH: So, the 4B movement, 4B is shorthand for four Korean words that all start with B or no. So, the first no, Bihon, is the refusal of heterosexual marriage. Bichulsan is the refusal of childbirth. Biyeonae is saying no to dating. And Bisekseu is the rejection of heterosexual sexual relationships. It is both an ideological stance and a lifestyle and many women I spoke to, I don't know who I is, but I, spoke to extend their boycott to nearly all the men in their lives, including distancing themselves from male friends. This person is saying that 4B, or practicing Bihon, is the only path by which a Korean woman today can live autonomously. In their view, Korean men are essentially beyond redemption, and Korean culture on the whole is hopelessly patriarchal, often downright misogynistic. Practicing Bihon means you're eliminating the risks that come from heterosexual marriage or dating, says Yeo Won, a 26-year-old office worker. So that's the basics.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: No, you don't date men. You don't have sex with men. You don't marry men. Like it's literally just distancing yourself from men, essentially.
KAYLA: Yeah. No men.
SARAH: No men. I have another, all of my research is tweets.
KAYLA: Great. But I think that makes sense, because I think I'm assuming a lot of this movement has moved through online spaces.
SARAH: Yeah. And this person says, “a reminder that the 4B movement and the separatist movement in general isn’t just about avoiding men, it is also about supporting and investing in women. So, you got relationships with women, women own businesses, women… et cetera, surround yourself with women in our culture.” So, this came about because of the horrible misogyny and just how shitty it was to exist as a woman in Korea and as a result, the birth rate in Korea has declined.
KAYLA: That's so wild.
SARAH: It's not like this is just some thing that people talk about. So, this chart is in Korean. So, I cannot tell you exactly what all of these things mean. But in terms of the birth rate in Korea, in the past decade or so, it peaked in 2015 which was when… and then in 2015 is when the 4B movement kind of came about and it has been declining ever since. Oh, there is a translation, it says number of births. It's 43.8 Myeon. Myeon is a thousand? It's Man. I'm not even… I didn't even look up the right… I spelled it wrong.
KAYLA: Good.
SARAH: Okay, well that's just Korean. 10,000. Okay. Okay. So, in 2015, there were 438,000 births in Korea.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm.
SARAH: In 2023, there were 230,000 births.
KAYLA: Wow.
SARAH: That's like almost half.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And obviously, there are other factors in this. Like, it's not like…
KAYLA: Yeah, it's not…
SARAH: There are economic factors. There are blah blah blah blah blah.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But there is a noticeable decline since the 4B movement has become a thing, to the point where the Korean government is trying to incentivize people to have kids, but they're just… And I think this is where it came up when we were talking about it on the podcast before, was like they're trying to incentivize people to have kids, but they're doing it in like all the wrong ways. Instead of being like, “Oh, well, we will make it cheaper and easier for you to raise children.” They're like, “what if we make it so that girls start school earlier than boys do? And therefore, they…”
KAYLA: What?
SARAH: It's so weird. I don't know what they're doing.
KAYLA: That makes no sense.
SARAH: It's something about how girls, because they mature…
KAYLA: Oh, no.
SARAH: I don't know. I don't know. I'm not going to get into it, but…
KAYLA: That sounds bad. It sounds bad.
[00:10:00]
SARAH: They're going about it all the wrong ways. And so, all of these women are basically saying that we're not fucking… We're just not engaging with that, like no.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: This has come up in the context of the United States because of the results of our funky little democratic election
KAYLA: Mm
SARAH: And the fact that that funky little orange fucker is going to be back in the White House with all his funky little orange fucker friends. And because of the plans that they have, the whole Project 2025, how Roe vs. Wade is not the law of the land in the United States anymore, which means that abortion is not federally legal, which means it's done by states, which means some states have absolutely insane abortion bans, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. People are saying women in the United States should embrace their own 4B movement and just say, no, I will not engage.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: I have more to add to this, including additional research
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: But I will let you give your opinion. I'm so generous.
KAYLA: Thank you so much. For my time on the floor, Your Honor. I don't know. I mean, it's such a complicated issue. All of this is so complicated and there's just… there's so… there are so many different layers to it.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: I guess I'll start by saying I completely understand why anyone in any… Any woman in any country would participate in this movement. Like, especially if you are a woman who has faced any sort of abuse or violence, which unfortunately is most women, like percentage-wise.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like it does… it just… even speaking from personal experience, like it vastly impacts your life in ways that you could never even imagine.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: So, yeah, I'll start by saying I completely understand it.
SARAH: I mean, it's essentially it… it's an ideology of segregation.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: It's self-segregation as a means of protecting yourself because you don't feel that you have the platform to advocate for women. So, your only option is to segregate yourself.
KAYLA: Yeah. My concern is about what the path forward is after the movement, because I think especially when you're talking about like going so far as removing yourself from having male friends or like really any contact with men it makes me wonder, like how the necessary conversations of like conflict resolution and education and compromise how do those come about?
SARAH: Will that just make the divide worse? Like, will that just make the split worse?
KAYLA: Right. And like that's what… that's a conversation I've been hearing people have about just like American politics, too, is that there's like a lot of people, which, again, I completely understand, who are like, if you vote for Trump, I will not talk to you, I will not have a relationship with you, which like totally get. But also, if those conversations are not happening on some level, how do you come to understand why the election happened this way and like what went so wrong to make so many people vote for Trump? You know what I mean?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: So, it's like on the one hand, I completely get it. But on the other hand, like, how do we move forward?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: And bridge a gap if both sides are pulling away.
SARAH: Yeah, because it's also… it's not just about… it's not just a problem of polarization, it's a problem of calcification
KAYLA: Mm
SARAH: Where once you have your side, there's no… Like there's no changing your mind, there's no pulling you away from it.
KAYLA: Right.
SARAH: Like, in my personal opinion, my approach is like, if after almost a decade, you're still a fucking Trumper…
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Like, I don't… I don't… I'm not fucking with that. Like, I don't… I don't want to deal with that.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: If you are open to having conversations and like you're you actually are like, wait, these tariffs are fucking us.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like, you know, that sort of thing. And like you actually want to have a conversation that's actually a productive conversation, I will have that conversation with you.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But like, to me, it's like you have had the time and space to learn. You have had the time and space to be educated. I have had conversations with people that have achieved fucking nothing.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: So, like, I am not putting my time and energy into that shit. If you're going to be that way, then you be that way, but I don't want that in my space. You know?
KAYLA: Yeah. And again, like I completely get it. And like, I don't think I would… I don't know that I'm like ready to have those kinds of conversations with people either. But I think that the conversate… like someone needs to be having them.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And so that's what just makes me like interested in a movement like the 4B movement, because I don't think it's a movement that everyone can be a part of.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: There has to be someone left.
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: In the middle who is willing to communicate and to like be there and not be completely segregated.
SARAH: My understanding of kind of the purpose, I mean, I guess you have to look more into this to like… Like I don't know if it has like specific… like are there like specific founders or is it like kind of like a community grown? I'm not sure.
KAYLA: Yeah. I mean, I guess just like the vibe I've gotten that it's like more of a grassroots thing, but.
SARAH: Okay. So, the Lord's Wikipedia says, while 4B advocates aspire to instigate societal change through in-person demonstrations, online activism, and by exemplifying an alternative lifestyle for other women, their focus is not on changing the perspective of men as they are seen as oppressors. So, I think that plays into your point of like the… because like my understanding of it was that kind of… a lot of the point of it was to shock the system
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Was to make men realize that if you don't respect women, if you're not going to treat them like human people, then they will not contribute to your society and they will not do what you want them to do.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And the intent is to kind of make them reconsider that and as a result, have them come back into the conversation.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But that could also make them push away harder
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And it also seems like according to this, at least, like they don't have a future plan, like they don't have a ‘what's next?’ sort of thing.
KAYLA: That's what... Yeah. I mean, that's just like what scares me. And this is also just like… just a personal attribute of mine is that I don't trust other people to like have good cognitive functioning.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: So, like I… the like premise makes sense to me that you would like do this, that you would see these like massive birth rate declines that you would see like no one is willing to date me because men suck and that men would then reconsider but I don't trust them to do that.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like I don't trust them to come to that conclusion on their own, but it also sucks because as with like every protest or like discriminated against group, it should not be that group's burden to bear to educate.
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: But also, it's like, who else is going to it?
SARAH: Who else is going to do it? Yeah. No, no, no. I get it. Also, I've seen a lot of discourse of people who are kind of on the Internet who are questioning whether American women actually would have the fortitude to follow through with this.
KAYLA: Interesting.
SARAH: Now, to be fair, again, the 4B movement, like the birth rate has gone down in Korea, but like according to something somewhere, it claimed to have 4000 members in 2019, which was five years ago. But like that's also not that many people.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like the population of Korea is I think like 50 million-ish.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: 50, 60. But that's also people who are like considering themselves directly a part of it, not people who like might kind of be embracing certain aspects of it. So, I don’t know…
KAYLA: I think those are like card-carrying members.
SARAH: Right, exactly. But I have seen a lot of discourse about like American women wouldn't be able to do this because they're so like male-centered all the time.
KAYLA: Mm
SARAH: And like I've seen people being like, well, like if I have a boyfriend, can I still be a part of the movement? It's like, no, no
KAYLA: No, girl.
SARAH: Like if you have a boyfriend right now, not anymore you don't.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like the point is like these women are distancing themselves from male friends and then like they're intentionally segregating themselves from men because they do not feel safe in male society.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like one of the ‘good ones,’ can become one of the bad ones so easily. And like just because you think your guy is good doesn't mean that he just gets to be the exception because you said so. Like that's not how the movement works.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And I think… this kind of relates in my mind a little bit to the… there's a sense of like, I don't know what to call it, like Hallyu washing, like Hallyu being like Korean culture that's being brought into the West.
[00:20:00]
SARAH: Like there's a bit of like whitewashing of that via K-pop and K-dramas because they give foreigners the idea that like this is what Korean men are like.
KAYLA: Mm
SARAH: Maybe it's an idealized version of it, but it can't be that far away from reality, can it? But then women and femme presenting people who are not Korean go to Korea for the first time and they're slapped in the face with a reality that is very different from what they see in K-pop and on these K-dramas and they're like, oh shit, like this is way worse than I thought.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And like, you know, you see like K-pop idols who identify as feminists, they get shat on so hard by the Korean general public, especially if they're a woman. Recently, there was a K-pop idol in a popular, well-known group who had been on the scene for several years, I think I've talked to you about… I have talked to you about this, Kayla, but I don't think I've talked about it on the podcast. But it recently came out that the police were investigating him for sexual assault and he was immediately put on hiatus and I think he has now been officially kicked out of the group or he left. He's gone. But it was like a really big slap in the face for a lot of fans because you never think it's going to be your bias. Like you never think it's going to be someone from your favorite group. But this shit has happened before in K-pop and it will happen again. And it served as a reminder, especially to a lot of non-Korean K-pop fans who aren't existing in that culture, that a man is still a man.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And you don't know this man as much as it parasocially feels like you do. You don't know this man. And statistically, a large portion of Korean men are raging misogynists.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like I don't want to make it seem like I'm ragging on Koreans or Korean culture in particular. Obviously, I love K-pop and I love all sorts of people in that world. I don't have some vendetta against it. But like I don't have an ulterior motive to take down Korea. Like, no.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: If anything, my ulterior motive is to make Korea safer for women by brainwashing male idols into respecting women.
KAYLA: Mm, very good
SARAH: Like that's my ulterior motive. Anyway. But I do think that speaks to another reason why so many people think that this won't work in the United States. And I saw some tweets about this on my feed today about how American women don't understand how bad it is in Korea for Korean women and how deep the rot goes. And they just don't understand the cultural context and so they're trying to take this movement and just transpose it onto American culture and it doesn't quite fit in the way that some people would like it to. And I have some tweets. Before I read you these tweets, I would like to be clear that the guy who wrote this thread has loudly and clearly stated that he is not a feminist.
KAYLA: Great!
SARAH: He does not care about dismantling the patriarchy. And yet even he is saying this.
KAYLA: Okay, good work!
SARAH: And it's not like he's pulling shit out of his ass. Like I saw a lot of replies from Korean women who were agreeing with him and being like, yes, this is an accurate depiction of whatever. So, this is what this motherfucker said.
KAYLA: Is this man American or Korean?
SARAH: Not Korean.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: I do not know what nationality he is.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: “The average misogynist in Korea, not even incel, just misogynist, outpower levels American misogynists by the sheer fact that I don't think they believe women are even close to being human. They hate un-pregnant women, bro. Like, actively. American incels and misogynists know they have to at least be nominally good to women in a relationship or in general. But South Korean incels and misogynists don't really believe that. American guys who don't know the background talk on the evil South Korean radical feminist government cult…” There's a whole thing about that which we won't get into. But this person is saying like, I get it. Like, I understand why there has been such a strong response because it's so fucked up.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And then you have all these Korean women in their replies being like, yeah, correct. And so, it's interesting because, in theory, I really like the idea of the 4B movement and transposing it onto US culture. It's also very easy for me to say that because I have been unintentionally…
KAYLA: You’re already doing it.
SARAH: Abiding by it my whole life.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But I just… I do think there is like… people are making it into such a black and white thing like, oh, this will work exactly or it won't work at all.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And I've also seen discourse about how in the original 4B movement, there are sects of it that are very homophobic and very transphobic.
KAYLA: Good.
SARAH: And so, then there are people like leftists or, you know, people on the internet who are basically saying like, this is a TERF movement. Therefore, it doesn't have value.
KAYLA: Mm
SARAH: But I think that is stupid.
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: Because like just because there are people in the movement who are in a country that is a lot more queerphobic than the United States, so it's ingrained in their society even more than it is here.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Or because people who are trying to adopt this now in the West are TERFS because that is happening.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: It doesn't mean it's a useless project. Like it doesn’t mean… Like what it means is that if you think that it is a useful framework, it means that you should jump into that framework and ostracize them, like outnumber them, make it not a safe space for them.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Because when I was looking up stuff for this episode, granted, I was on Twitter, so like it's a fucking cess pool, but there were so many tweets with so many likes that were like, “well, it's just TERFS, it's based on radical feminism, it's invalid.” But it's like if you agree with the premise, flood the zone.
KAYLA: Yeah. I also, like… I don't think you should just throw the whole thing away.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Like, even if taking that into account, and even if it is impossible to transpose it perfectly into American culture, because obviously like the Korean culture and American culture, it's just so different. Just like an Eastern and a Western culture. There's just like inherent differences about like how society moves and like how people view themselves and like, whatever.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: I don't think that… I still don't think it means you should just throw the whole thing away like I think there are still very useful lessons to be learned and tools to be taken from it, even if you cannot just completely take the movement and bring it to the US.
SARAH: Yeah, well and this person @SugeCard, it’s the first person I've given the handle of, congrats to @SugeCard. This person is like, “yes, there's transphobia in the 4B movement but nothing about the movement itself is transphobic. Nothing about refusing to date, marry, have sex or have kids with men is transphobic. Nothing about building community with women is transphobic. It's only transphobic if you're getting TERFy about it.”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: So
KAYLA: Right. Yes.
SARAH: Those are all of my main points that I wanted to hit upon.
KAYLA: Thank you. Thank you for your points. I had a thought… that’s on point
SARAH: How do we feel?
KAYLA: I think the point about American women like not having the resolve is very interesting, because at first, I was like, a little offended, because I was like, huh?
SARAH: Mm
KAYLA: What are you saying about American women? But then I'm thinking about it, and just like the way our society is set up, and I don't know how similar this is to Korean culture, I really know nothing about Korean culture.
SARAH: Everything you know has been from me through osmosis.
KAYLA: Yeah, exactly. Just… It's so amatonormative that to completely break yourself off from it, dating men, having sex with men, kids, whatever, like, to completely cut yourself off from that would just… it would be a huge lifestyle change for anyone, especially if you are thinking about like a full removal or you don't even want to talk to people about those things.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Think about like every single one of your conversations would have to pass the Bechdel test
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Which like… it's like, is that… Right.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: So, like that's… it's interesting because like you're basically talking about taking the way someone like you lives, who's like an aspec person who has no interest in dating relationships, having kids, whatever and then taking someone in the middle of their life, who does experience those romantic attractions, but is just choosing then to take on that lifestyle. Like that's a…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: It is a big ask.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Because even for someone without those attractions, it's a difficult lifestyle to have with our culture the way it is.
SARAH: Yeah. Yeah. I'm also just not convinced American women can do it. Like prove me wrong, please. Like…
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I just… I think because things are so extreme in the socio-cultural scenario in Korea, like that being so extreme is forcing an extreme response.
[00:30:00]
KAYLA: Well, it also seems like in Korea, it's more also an aspect of safety
SARAH: Mm-hmm. Yeah
KAYLA: Like physical, emotional, personal safety, which is definitely the case for many American women.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But I would not say the majority of American women are in that position.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: That they would have to do something like that for their safety, which it just makes the stakes different.
SARAH: Yeah. And that's not to say like, well, it's gonna get that bad here. So, let's do it now. Like, I don't… we don't fucking know what's gonna happen in the future. But like, I think it would take a big shift and a big turn in the United States for women to really…
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: On mass commit to something like this. It is also interesting because in the conversations that I see had about the 4B movement in Korea, I don't see people often talking about queer women, because queerness is a much more of a taboo there. And so, I think there is an interesting conversation to have… to be had about like, well, bisexuals, you can date women but you can’t date men.
KAYLA: Yeah, that was one of the first things I thought about was like, how does queerness play into this, which again, is just like an interesting thing about taking this movement from somewhere that's very queerphobic to America, which queerphobic, but slightly, you know, better.
SARAH: Yeah. And that's not to say that queer people… that's not to say that queer people don't exist in Korea or that they don't exist in public in Korea, because they do.
KAYLA: Yes. Right.
SARAH: But it's… they don't have the same protections that we sometimes have in the United States. Sometimes.
KAYLA: Yeah. Yes. And there's also just so many more people in the United States. It's just, we're a very large country with a huge population.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: So, then it's like, how do queer people play into this movement? Like, take a lesbian or an aspec person, like, are they part of the movement?
SARAH: Mm-hmm.
KAYLA: Are they just like not… is it not?
SARAH: Are they an ally to the movement?
KAYLA: Because they were not doing it in the first place, right? Are you an ally? Are you like helping to provide resources about like, here's how to build community without men, or like without those kind of relationships? Like, it's interesting.
SARAH: What if you have a friend who is a man, and you distance yourself from them, and then they come to the realization that they are trans or non-binary?
KAYLA: Interesting.
SARAH: You can be friends with them now.
KAYLA: Huge. If men want to be friends with women, they have to stop being men.
SARAH: You have to just become non-binary.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Because that's how it works.
KAYLA: That’s how it works
SARAH: Um, what you were saying about… whatever you were saying, I don't even remember now
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: It made me think… it made me think of, um, there was recently a documentary on Apple TV that was about like K-pop. I didn't watch it, but I've seen some clips.
KAYLA: Good. Very nice.
SARAH: And one of them was from Jessi, who was a K-pop idol, who was raised in the United States. I think I've mentioned her before like she's very much outside of the Korean beauty standards like intentionally like she is more Kardashian than Korean.
KAYLA: Oh yeah, we’ve talked about her, yeah
SARAH: In terms of the beauty standards that she chases and pursues.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And so, like hearing her perspective on this stuff is always interesting to me because like, she is actively in that world but she's also actively pushing against that world but she has to conform to a certain extent, like it's interesting to me. And I saw a clip from that documentary where she was talking about how in the United States, there are all sorts of different things on TV. There are so many different types of shows that you can watch. But in Korea, it feels like in a lot of ways everything is from the same perspective. And so, because of that, of course you have queer people and you have Korean drag queens and you have, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But they're not given any sort of platform, and there's not really a platform for them even to take in a lot of ways because it's just kind of like one perspective, one POV in their media. Now, I don't know that every Korean would agree with the fact that it's all… Like, I am not Korean, I cannot speak to that.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But that was Jessi's perspective and I just… I think that's an interesting representation of how this shit goes, I don't know like how… what makes it different from here.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: That makes it difficult to transfer.
KAYLA: That made me think about, there has been an influx of Korean TV on Netflix recently and there's a series of shows that I really like that started with Physical 100 I think they've done some offshoots now but it's like they take 100 Korean athletes and they go through these like very intense physical things and it ends with like one person and they talk about like, this is the perfect physical physique, like that's like the gimmick, is like who has the… Like they have like casts made of their body and like they're like this is the perfect body, whatever.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And there's men and women on the show, and they sometimes do team things and so then there's like co-Ed teams. And it's interesting because you can tell that it's a manicure show, they are putting it on Netflix, like it's clear that it's intended for like an international audience.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: And so, they like definitely, I think, tone down the talk about gender. But even if… like however much editing they put it through just the way that the male athletes talk about the female athletes and like watching them pick teams, and it getting down to like that women are always last and then even seeing the way that the women talk about each other where they'll be like, oh, that team has two women, like they're gonna fail for sure. And they're saying that like as another woman.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: And these are all mind you people that are like incredibly strong they have like these like bodybuilder women and like CrossFit and like just like the most fit people that you've ever seen.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And still they're talking about each other that way on a show that's already you can tell heavily edited. It's so sad.
SARAH: It's like yeah, you may have a natural disadvantage, just because of your size or the amount of testosterone you have but like…
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: You're a fucking athlete, like, especially because like all these… It's not like all of the challenges, address the same thing.
KAYLA: No. Yeah, they do like various…
SARAH: It's not like very physical strength. It's not all endurance, it's not like…
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like, ah
KAYLA: Yeah, they vary it, like on purpose
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But it just makes me sad because they bring in like incredible athletes, there's like Olympians and like world champions and just to like to see it so much in a show that you could tell they tried to probably take a good amount of it out to be like, nope, no misogyny here. Don't worry, good show. It's like, damn, what were the… what was it like before the edit?
SARAH: Yeah. That also reminds me when I was mentioning, like if you're an outspoken feminist, and as a K-pop idol, especially if you're a woman you get shat on so hard. And the one particular person I was thinking of is this girl named So-yeon who is a member of (G)I-DLE, and she does a lot of the like writing and producing for them. And they… (G)I-DLE came out with a song this year in January, called Wife, that is satirical. I'm just gonna read you the lyrics.
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: This is in English, these lyrics.
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: I cook cream soup, taste is Coco Loco. Want me your wife, but she is mm, mm, mm. I clean your room, it's so twinkle twinkle. Want me your wife but she is mm, mm, mm.
KAYLA: Good.
SARAH: And in the music video they're like wearing these wigs, it’s… But there were a lot of people in the West who were criticizing that as like, that's so two dimensional, like sure it's satire but like it's so two dimensional but it's like that reads differently in Korea than it does here.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And you have to consider that context when you're considering like, obviously it's satire, like, I cook cream soup, taste is Coco Loco, like…
KAYLA: Are they singing that in English or is that just the translation?
SARAH: Yes, that's in English.
KAYLA: Oh. That is funny. That's funny.
SARAH: And like, there are grammatical things that are not grammatically correct in English, that seem to be intentional.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like Nam-joon in BTS does this and So-yeon has done this before where like they make intentional “mistakes” with their English lyrics, with a purpose to that mistake
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Or with a purpose to that non grammatically correct thing and like the understanding is by people with… most people with brain cells is that like that was intentional on So-yeon’s part.
KAYLA: Yeah. Yeah.
SARAH: But it’s… what a song, I'm going to send it to you.
KAYLA: Yeah, please do. I cook cream soup.
[00:40:00]
SARAH: Anyway, I think that's all I have to say, shall we stop?
KAYLA: Yeah, I am… I don't know, I have mixed feelings, I like the premise.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: But I want to know…
SARAH: Want it to be a little bit more forward looking
KAYLA: Yeah. I want to know where it's going.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: And then also yeah, you… Yeah, the points about transferring it to American culture is just like, yeah, what do you…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: You know?
SARAH: And I think it's good to like be influenced by the Korean 4B movement, and then if it grows in the United States, and then that can influence the Korean 4B movement back, like it can… it's a push and a pull
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: It's a give and a take, we can communicate with each other and change each other's mindsets for the better and help each other out but… yeah.
KAYLA: Yeah. I mean, I think it's a good conversation to have and it's a good thought starter about like… especially if this is going to like remove some amatonormativity or like get people used to like you don't have to be in relationships and having sex, I mean like…
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Great. Good.
SARAH: Good. Yeah, live with your friends when you're 50 years old. Do it.
KAYLA: Mm hmm. Do it. You won't…
SARAH: Do it. You won't… I dare you. I fucking dare you. Kayla what's our poll for this week. I mean thoughts on the 4B movement, like...
KAYLA: Yeah, well I was gonna ask first like would you participate, but I feel like a good amount of our listeners are maybe already participating.
SARAH: We don't have the right audience for that.
KAYLA: No.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: We're maybe already doing that.
SARAH: It would also be interesting to ask people if they think it would work in the United States, like if they think…
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: That enough people could get on board that it actually decreases the birth rate.
KAYLA: Yeah, I don't see it happening.
SARAH: I don't either. Um, I'm also curious to know like how many people knew about it.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Before now, because like I did but that's because I exist in certain internet spaces, so
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Kayla, what's your beef and your juice for this week?
KAYLA: My beef is, you know
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: My juice is, one, I became an aunt today. My sister had an…
SARAH: An aunt? That's so fancy of you.
KAYLA: An auntie
SARAH: We don't say that in our accent.
KAYLA: I will… that was the thing, is when I say aunt, I feel like it makes my accent especially strong and sometimes…
SARAH: Aunt
KAYLA: I get self-conscious about it.
SARAH: Aunt Kayla
KAYLA: Aunt Kayla. My sister had a baby today, he's so sweet, I've been very outspoken about how I think newborns are ugly but he's like a good looking newborn, I sent Sarah a picture
SARAH: I told Kayla he was rotund.
KAYLA: He's very round, which is like just good, because a lot of times newborns are like all oval, wrinkly and like squishy but he's… Yeah. I think he looks pretty good
SARAH: He's like a little Santa Claus.
KAYLA: Interesting. He did have some nice cheeks.
SARAH: Rotund.
KAYLA: Rotund. I also was living my best aunt life earlier because I was on FaceTime with my family when they were visiting and seeing the baby and I was like walking down the street on FaceTime going to the grocery store and I was like, “Oh, I'm the big city aunt, FaceTime… cool aunt from afar.”
SARAH: And the baby will remember that forever.
KAYLA: Forever? Listen, I was there while he was learning to breastfeed on FaceTime
SARAH: Wow
KAYLA: It was great. He did much better while I was on FaceTime than when I wasn't, so I was like, that is…
SARAH: It was all you.
KAYLA: It was all me. My other juice is, listen, there are these things called Uncrustables. If you don't know about them.
SARAH: Jesus Christ
KAYLA: They are… No, because listen, they are like little package sandwiches, like it's a peanut butter… the traditional is a peanut butter jelly sandwich, and they like stamp them so the crust is gone, they're like little circles
SARAH: Picture American chemicals at their finest.
KAYLA: Literally. And then so you have this little like circle sandwich without a crust, and there's like peanut butter, just look it up, and you put it in the freezer, whatever. So recently, they… like news came out that was talking about how many Uncrustables each NFL team eats a week. And there are some NFL teams that eat like 1000 a week, because they just like eat them during halftime, or like at practice or whatever, they're eating so many Uncrustables.
SARAH: They’re eating snacks
KAYLA: If they're eating so many Uncrustables. And so that really got me, I thought that was so charming. And so, it really got me thinking about Uncrustables and I got sad because I don't really like jelly.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: So, I've never really got to have the Uncrustables experience. So, I was like…
SARAH: I love a good grape jelly.
KAYLA: I just can't… I don't know.
SARAH: Smucker’s Grape Jelly
KAYLA: I can't. And so Uncrustables… Smucker’s. If they are Smucker’s brand.
SARAH: Yeah, I know
KAYLA: Unfortunately, they don't have just jelly, so you're a little bit out of luck, but I was like, I don't like jelly so I was like, do they have one that's just peanut butter, because I like a peanut butter sandwich, and they do, and they also have a Nutella version, and I was like, work. So, I looked it up, I looked at my grocery store’s app, and they said they had them so I was like, fantastic. Every time I've gone to the grocery store for the past like weeks, there has been like the label on the shelf for them, but they've never been there, and I look every time and I get so sad. And then today, I went to the CVS to get my vaccines, and they gave me a coupon and free popcorn for getting my vaccine.
SARAH: Hell, yeah
KAYLA: So, I was walking around, deciding what to buy with my coupon, and I went to the freezer section because I wanted to see if there's anything I wanted for dinner, and there, lo and behold, on the top shelf was Nutella Uncrustables. And Sarah, when I tell you I stopped dead in my tracks, and my mouth was agape, and I went, I said out loud, there's no way. And then I bought two boxes because I don't know when I'll find them again.
SARAH: Oh my god. I love that for you.
KAYLA: So, thank you.
SARAH: Amazing.
KAYLA: Thank you so much.
SARAH: My juice is that I saw some K-pop concerts over the weekend, I saw Seventeen.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: It was a grand old time. The crowd management was horrible on day one
KAYLA: Oh, no
SARAH: But we moved. Concert didn't end until 12:05 am.
KAYLA: I love that.
SARAH: Because it got delayed by an hour because of a soccer game, and then it started 40 minutes late because of bad crowd management.
KAYLA: Good.
SARAH: Anyway, that was good. I had a good time. My beef is, okay, so I like to watch rug cleaning videos.
KAYLA: Me too.
SARAH: Okay, so you know in rug cleaning videos, oftentimes the floor is at a slight angle to drain the water, like just a little bit of an angle.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: And my beef is when they're putting the soap on the rug, but they start at the lower elevation and move to the higher elevation instead of the other way around. Because then what happens is a good portion of the soap just immediately runs off before you can scrub it in with anything. It's wasteful. Whereas if you started at the higher elevation, it would run down to the lower elevation parts of the rug and it would still be useful in cleaning, it wouldn't just be running straight to the drain. Honestly, at all times, like they're using too much soap anyway.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: And if 20% of your bucket of soap doesn't even make it onto the rug itself, what is the point? Why not make your bucket of soap 20% smaller, and then make sure it all ends up on the fucking rug?
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: That's my beef.
KAYLA: Wait, my other juice is that we've been having so many internet problems in my home since we moved in, and we tried getting a WiFi extender and we tried moving the router and it was a whole thing. And then finally, I was like, I think I need a new router because this one is old and I don't think it's even possible for it to get to the speeds that I'm even paying for. And my new router came today. And I set it up, and we have had no internet problems on the call.
SARAH: Woo-hoo
KAYLA: And like the past several weeks I've had to just keep my camera off and it has been so sad and I've been getting so angry, but my camera is on the whole time.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: What a delight. And I named my WiFi network, Joey Spaghetti's Pizza Emporium.
SARAH: Great.
KAYLA: And the 5G one is called Joey Spaghetti's Slice Emporium, and then Joey Spaghetti's Express Slice, and then the WiFi extender in my office is called Joey Spaghetti's Office.
SARAH: Great.
KAYLA: So, if you're ever wandering around Cambridge and you see those WiFi networks come up, you found my house. Congratulations.
SARAH: You found Kayla’s house
KAYLA: You found me.
SARAH: Imagine people just walking around like just looking at WiFis as they do that thing like…
KAYLA: Don't do that.
SARAH: Where is she?
KAYLA: Don't do that. Don't do that.
SARAH: It would take so long.
KAYLA: You know what I've thought about though?
SARAH: Mm
KAYLA: Is that I've said where I work, you can find where I work.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: So, I was like, if people… if someone wanted to stalk me, it'd be so easy.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Which I know is the case for anyone, but sometimes I'm like…
SARAH: I mean…
KAYLA: They could really find exactly where I work.
SARAH: I have said that I live walking distance from my P.O. box.
KAYLA: I know. I remember you saying that and I was like, I don't think she should have said that. And then now you just said it again.
SARAH: I did just say it again.
KAYLA: Come find her
SARAH: But you don't know how far I'm going to walk. Honestly, much like Elizabeth Bennett, I love to walk.
KAYLA: That's true. She could live 10 miles away from the post office, you'd never know.
SARAH: I love to walk. You know I do. When I lived in Germany and I would have to go...
KAYLA: That bitch was walking.
[00:50:00]
SARAH: No, because I lived in town, but most of the dorms for students were up away.
KAYLA: There was a hill.
SARAH: Yeah, there was a big whole shenanigans.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And most people, if they were going from one place to another, would take the bus.
KAYLA: Not you cheap
SARAH: I was so cheap that I did not want to pay to go on the bus. So, I would just walk, take like at least half an hour.
KAYLA: I love that. Great
SARAH: Anyway.
KAYLA: Good.
SARAH: If you would like to…
KAYLA: So that's where to find our home.
SARAH: Patreon. What? You can tell us about your beef, your juice, where you think we live; in our DMs, not publicly, on our social media @soundsfakepod.
KAYLA: Yeah, slide into DMs with your best guess. Just look at a map of LA and a map of Cambridge and just give us a circle, just tell us where you think we are.
SARAH: Do your best.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Anyway, social media @soundsfakepod. We also have a Patreon, Patreon.com/soundsfakepod. Our $5 patrons who we are promoting this week are Joch, Jolly Lizbert, Katharina, Kathryn and Kelly. Our $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are Martin Chiesl who would like to promote his podcast, Everyone’s Special and No One Is. Olivia O’Shea who would like to promote, not telling aspec people they just haven’t found the right person yet. Don't do that.
KAYLA: Mm-mm
SARAH: Parker, who would like to promote being a silly little guy and Phoenix Leiden, who would like to promote the Trevor Project. Our $10 patrons, our other ones, are Alastor, Alyson, Ani, Arcnes, Benjamin Ybarra, Bones, Celina Dobson, Clare Olsen, Derick & Carissa, Elle Bitter, my Aunt Jeannie, Kayla’s dad, Grandpa? Grandpa Kevin?
KAYLA: Grandpa Kevin, that's true.
SARAH: Maff. Purple Hayes, Barefoot Backpacker, SongOStorm and Val. Our $15 patrons are Ace, who would like to promote the writer, Crystal Scherer. Andrew Hillum who would like to promote the Invisible Spectrum Podcast. Hector Murillo who would like to promote friends that are supportive, constructive, and help you grow as a better person. Nathaniel White who would like to promote NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com. Kayla's Aunt Nina, who would like to promote katemaggartart.com and Schnell who would like to promote accepting that everyone is different and that's awesome. Our $20 patrons are Dragonfly, Dr. Jacki Willenborg, my mom, and River, who would like to promote Dr. Jacki being Dr. Jacki and also equity. Thanks for listening, tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears and don't forget to submit your listener lore for our listener lore drop number two.
KAYLA: Yes. And until then, take good care of your cows.
[END OF TRANSCRIPT]