Ep 242: Catfishing
(00:00)
SARAH: Hey, what's up, hello! Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aroace girl, I'm Sarah, that's me.
KAYLA: And a bi demisexual girl, that's me, Kayla.
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.
KAYLA: On today's episode, catfishing.
SARAH AND KAYLA: Sounds Fake But Okay.
(theme music plays)
SARAH: Happy 2023, y'all.
KAYLA: We did it.
SARAH: We did it. We're here. You made it.
KAYLA: Can I share an irrelevant thing, is that as we were recording the intro, I had a very self-aware moment where I was like, what? I'm recording a podcast right now. I, maybe it's just because we haven't done it in like a month
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: but I was like, I'm currently recording a podcast. I have a podcast. I've had a podcast for five years.
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: I have a podcast that then I wrote a book. A lot happened while I was saying my intro thing.
SARAH: Wow, you really went through a lot there.
KAYLA: I really did.
SARAH: I wonder if our listeners could hear it in your voice.
KAYLA: I hope so. Anyway, we did it.
SARAH: We did it. How was everyone's new year? I hope it was good.
KAYLA: Yeah. How are you?
(pause)
KAYLA: Wow, that's great.
SARAH: Yeah. How are your loved ones?
(pause)
KAYLA: Good.
SARAH: Appropriate reaction. If you said they're bad, then not good. Yeah. I hope you responded. I hope you talked out loud while you're at work right now. Yeah, especially if you're like on the bus or at the library or somewhere where it would be weird to do that.
KAYLA: Or if you're like falling asleep, I hope you just sat up and you were like, yeah.
SARAH: Yeah was not an answer to any of the questions we asked.
KAYLA: I don't know. If you say how's your family, I think yeah could be an appropriate response.
SARAH: With the right intonation?
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Yeah. Anyway, do we have any housekeeping books out next month?
KAYLA: Yeah. I think it's 48 days.
SARAH: 48. That's what you texted me today.
KAYLA: Yeah. Well, yesterday I was in therapy and I was like, how many days until this book comes out? And yesterday it was 49, which means today.
SARAH: You know, that is how numbers work.
KAYLA: Yeah. But that's where it's Wednesday, January 4th right now.
SARAH: So the day it comes out will be… 44. 44.
KAYLA: Very good. Good math.
SARAH: I can count.
KAYLA: That's very crazy. So yeah, housekeeping is, if you haven't pre-ordered the book, please do. We've said this a million times, but it is very, very important.
SARAH: Mm-hmm. If you have pre-ordered the book and you've moved, check your address,
because that was months ago.
KAYLA: Yeah. It's been months. But yeah, please share. Please pre-order. Yeah. It's very crazy. We've been like, it's been like two years away for so long, I feel like. And now.
SARAH: It is no longer two years away.
KAYLA: It's right here. And I'm, it's very existential.
SARAH: Oh, strange. The passage of time.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: You know, that's a line from John Mulaney's standup. I always, I always think it's like from something.
KAYLA: Like a movie or something.
SARAH: Yeah. I always think it's from something that's like, uh, uh, what's the word?
KAYLA: Like, um, old.
SARAH: What's, what's the word for self-important, but not – profound! I always think it's from something profound and it's literally from John Mulaney's standup.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Great. All right. Well, let's dive in. New year, same us.
KAYLA: Yeah
(05:00)
SARAH: Kayla, what are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: Today, I thought we would talk about catfishing.
SARAH: Yep.
KAYLA: I just texted Sarah today. I said, after we were doing a lot of humming and hawing about the fact that we had to record today after a very long time, and we were both a little bit sad about it. Um, not that we're sad to be coming back to you, but you know,
SARAH: yeah
KAYLA: we both are mentally ill and doing work is hard. So I was trying to think of an idea for today. So I was scrolling through a Reddit that's just like weird news, and I found one that a Minnesota man was found guilty of stealing $1.6 million from a woman through a cryptocurrency catfishing scam.
SARAH: Interesting.
KAYLA: Okay. Yeah. So I was like, I feel like we've all seen a lot of stories on catfishing. There's a whole show. There's been a lot of like Netflix documentaries about like different happenings of catfishing.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: I was like, let's talk about it.
SARAH: Great. I do want to note that the conversation that we had over a text, I'm looking at it right now. We had not texted since yesterday
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: this morning at 9 14 a.m. my time, you said, “must we”. No punctuation.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And I said, it appears that yes. And you said, “ugh”. And then at 10:52 a.m. my time, you said “what” No punctuation.
KAYLA: As in about what?
SARAH: Yes. And I knew exactly what
KAYLA: she knows. We have this conversation every week. And it always looks the same.
SARAH: And then I responded at 11 54. And I said, ugh. And then Kayla said, I think today we shall talk about catfishing. And I said, oh, okay. And that was the conversation.
KAYLA: And then I said, and then this weekend, we shall have a business meeting. And Sarah said, no.
SARAH: No, I said tunas for sister Minnie, ugh. But tunas are for sister Minnie because we're talking about catfishing. And sister Minnie is a cat and she likes tunas.
KAYLA: I didn't even get that actually.
SARAH: That's where it came from. Get it. I don't think she's found a husband yet. I think, I think she's actually an airways icon. I could really see that. She never shows any interest. She doesn't like any of the guys.
KAYLA: She's talking about a cat. A cat on TikTok.
SARAH: Her name is Minnie. I don't even know what the TikTok account is called. I follow it. Give me a second.
KAYLA: This woman like owns like a head scarf company.
SARAH: A hijab company. Yeah. She makes them.
KAYLA: But then it's just her cat. It's just her cat. And her name is Minnie. And sometimes she wears a hijab. She looks like a little burrito.
SARAH: Yeah. Minnie hates the hijab. It is @zaina.mb. Z-I nope. I lied. Z-A-I-N-A-H.MB. If you just look up sister Minnie, you'll probably find it like Minnie as in Minnie Mouse.
KAYLA: Would recommend.
SARAH: And truly excellent. Truly excellent videos. And so then sometimes me and Kayla just say to each other, Masha'Allah sister Minnie.
KAYLA: In our house, we've started saying Masha'Allah sister Billy and sister Gnocchi.
SARAH: Sometimes I say Masha'Allah brother Bogie. Anyway, that's all.
KAYLA: Can I hit you with a statistic?
SARAH: I would love nothing more.
KAYLA: So the Federal Trade Commission, this is an article that came out February of 2022. I guess that was a while ago. So the Federal Trade Commission data shows romance scams, aka catfishing, hit record high. $547 million reported lost in 2021.
SARAH: Reported. Just reported.
KAYLA: From catfishing. Up nearly 80% from the previous year, 2020.
SARAH: People, it was quarantine.
KAYLA: And total reported loss over the past five years. $1.3 billion.
SARAH: That's several.
KAYLA: Yeah. So the type of, in case you're not familiar.
SARAH: And that's in the Lord's United States.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: That's not even outside of that.
KAYLA: And you know what's happening elsewhere because that's what, what was the show called? Fuck, it was on Netflix. The Tinder Swindler. That was abroad.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: So it’s happening. In case you don't know what we're talking about. Catfishing, which I feel like there's a whole show
(10:00)
KAYLA: but maybe you're not, I don't know. It's basically when people make… yes?
SARAH: I was just going to say, I went to look up catfishing and I was going to look up the etymology of the word. Because I was like, why the fuck has it called catfishing? And I look up catfishing and the first search, I haven't even hit enter yet. It's just like the, the suggested from Google and it says catfishing meaning. And the, um, the definition given is the activity of catching catfish.
KAYLA: No. Well, yes, but no.
SARAH: Anyway, continue. Could you please explain what it actually is?
KAYLA: So it's basically someone making like a fake dating profile and then like romancing someone getting into like some sort of like online based romance relationship, and then using various schemes to get them to give them money. So the like classic one that you may have even seen like at work is like the gift card scam where you might get like an email from someone that has the same name as your CEO. And it's like, please, I, can you please buy, go out to the store, buy me these gift cards, send me the codes. I need them for like XYZ or whatever.
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: But apparently recently, like the, one of the more common things is cryptocurrency investment schemes. So there's like telling their online lovers, like you should invest in this like fake cryptocurrency that they make. And then really, it's just them giving up their money.
SARAH: And it's not always money related. Like sometimes people just like fake their identities online to have like an online relationship with someone.
KAYLA: Well that’s like what the whole show catfishing is about – wait what’s the show called?
SARAH: Well, so it's called catfish. Yes, so here's, let me actually, this is from wikipedia.org. So the etymology of the term, it originated from the 2010 American documentary catfish, and it follows this guy who was a victim. He had cultivated a relationship with what he thought was a 19 year old girl from the Midwestern United States. The woman with whom he had been communicating was actually a 40 year old housewife. In the documentary, the woman's husband makes a comparison between the woman's behavior and a mythical use for literal catfish in the shipping of live cod, live cod fish. Why did they spell behavior the British way?
KAYLA: Gross
SARAH: This is about an American. Anyway, the myth is that cod were shipped and were shipped with catfish in the same tanks in order to keep the cod active, ensuring the quality of the cod. Whereas when shipped alone, the cod would become pale and lethargic. This myth originated in the fiction writing of Henry Nevinson 1913 and Charles Marriott 1913. The term catfishing has become more widely known throughout the subsequent decade, thanks to television series, which followed the main star of the movie, helping other people investigate their possible catfish situations.
KAYLA: Wait. I didn't know the host. Oh, maybe I did that. The host of catfishing is the guy that had been catfished.
SARAH: Yes, correct.
KAYLA: Wow. That's crazy.
SARAH: the term also spiked in popularity during an incident involving university of Notre Dame football star Manti Te'o in 2013.
KAYLA: I do remember that
SARAH: I still don't totally understand why it's called catfishing.
KAYLA: I don't either. I don't quite get it. I think I need to know more about like fish biology.
SARAH: The cod were shipped with catfish in the same tanks.
KAYLA: So was it just cause like there's more like diversity of fish in the tank. So the cod are more like stimulated. So they like, yeah, but how does, but how does that explain the behavior? SARAH: Like the only thing I can think of is you open a tank and you expect only cod and you're like, ah, there's a catfish in there.
KAYLA: I would have to watch, I think the full documentary to fully understand. Yeah. Uh, confusing.
SARAH: Anyway. Wow. I'm just, there's, there's a section on practice and sociology.
KAYLA: Yeah. I did find an article, from discovery about like the like psychology behind it. But before that, I want to ask you a question
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Do you think you could be catfished?
SARAH: No
KAYLA: not even in a romantic way. Cause like there's other like, yeah, I don't see why anyone would want to catfish me. That's not the question. It's, I'm asking, it's like if you ask someone if they could like escape a cult, do you think that you are smart enough to not be catfished?
SARAH: What do you mean by catfish? Do you mean swindled out of money? Do you just mean?
KAYLA: I don't think… not necessarily about money.
SARAH: Like, do you think I could be tricked?
KAYLA: Yes. Into like, in it's some sort of, like, I feel like catfishing, it always has to do with some
sort of relationship with the person. It's not always romantic. The Tinder swindler, that whole story was like a platonic, which made it like even crazier to me.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: It was like this lady that was like friends with this guy.
(15:00)
SARAH: I think anyone can get catfished if the catfisher is good.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: I think if, even if it's just for a little bit.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And then you start being like, wait a minute. I don't think it would be that hard to get, especially because like some people online are like very protective of their identities.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And so if it was someone like that who was just being vague and saying things that, I don't know, you hear stories about like people who are like of sound mind getting tricked by people who are just really good fucking catfishers.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: In conclusion, yes, I could get catfished. But I like to think that I wouldn't go with it for like a long time.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Do you think you could get catfished?
KAYLA: Yeah. I've been scammed online before.
SARAH: Did you fall for the scam?
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Rip
KAYLA: I lost like a good amount of money.
SARAH: Oh no.
KAYLA: Because it was when we were moving here and we were trying to find an apartment
SARAH: Oh I remember this
KAYLA: and I was like desperate to find an apartment because we were moving so soon. And I got like scammed by someone that it was like fake, a fake apartment. And I like knew in the back of my mind the whole time that it didn't feel right. But I was so desperate, which I feel like a lot of the psychology behind catfishing is it's a lot of times it's very desperate people.
SARAH: Oh yeah
KAYLA: Like it's people desperate for companionship or like desperate for some kind of relationship. And so even if there is something at the back of your mind that like something isn't quite right, it's like, but it has to be because I need it to be like, it has to be right because I need it to be right.
SARAH: I almost got scammed by an Airbnb in Amsterdam, but then we were like, this is sus. And we ended up staying on a boat instead.
KAYLA: Oh, even better.
SARAH: It was a weird experience, but it's perfectly good boat. Anyway, no, this is interesting. It says in 2015, three girls created a fake social media profile and managed to steal $3,300 from the Islamic State, a terrorist group. They had been approached by a recruitment officer to join the organization. After coming into contact, three girls proceeded and asked for money to travel to Syria. When they received the money, the girls immediately deleted their internet account and pocketed the cash that was intended for their own personal travel.
KAYLA: That is incredible. I have seen a couple of TikToks recently about like scammers texting people, trying to do like the gift card scam
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: Or whatever. And then them just like flirting with the scammer so much that the scammer like gets really interested in this. That's so funny.
SARAH: It's a hustle, man.
KAYLA: It really is.
SARAH: But also, how are you the kind of person that gets approached by a recruitment officer of the Islamic State?
KAYLA: I don't know. I know someone that got scammed by, what was it? They were like in the airport about to travel somewhere abroad and then got a scam call that was like something about like, like your passport has expired or like your social security number got fucked up or something. And so she like freaked out because she thought it was like related to her travel. So she didn't get on her plane
SARAH: Oh no
KAYLA: spent like – sent them all this money for this whole thing and then like missed her flight. And it was just like this whole thing. And I think she fell for another scam like a month later. She, I don't know what her deal was. Do you like some psychology?
SARAH: Yeah, please.
KAYLA: So this is also from February of 2022. I think, oh yeah, because the Federal Trade Commission had released a warning. So I think there was a lot that came out at the beginning of last year about this. So it talks about like the origin with a documentary. Interesting. So social scientists understand many of the reasons why perpetrators catfish. Catfishing predators often say that their own troubles led them to adopt fake personas for entertainment purposes to make themselves seem more attractive or to bully others. Other times they build the relationship with the intent to take money. So that's interesting to me. So like, obviously there's the kinds where they're just trying to like scam people out of money.
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: But it like, I feel like it's such a classic bully thing of like people that are bullies always just have their own like deep traumas that make them just want to like
SARAH: yeah
KAYLA: fuck with other people.
SARAH: And I feel like the the traditional thing that you see in the media about catfishers who are like purely romantic sexual catfishers, like they're not in it for money, is always like, oh, it's an ugly person
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: who can't get a date on their own. So they have to use a fake identity and fake photos. And it's like, I don't know how often that is actually true.
KAYLA: I honestly like, I have a feeling it's probably not like that at all.
SARAH: Me too
KAYLA: Like the guy, like I know I'm talking about Tinder Swindler a lot. It's like the most recent thing I watched, but he was like a very attractive guy.
(20:00)
KAYLA: And like, and I guess that one wasn't even technically catfishing because it was like he met the people he was just like using like a bunch of fake names and had kind of a fake life of like, stealing people's money and then living this like very lavish life, even though he was like in a ton of debt and like constantly just going from scam to scam.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But anyway
SARAH: it's like that guy in Japan, attractive, like smart dude. It's like that guy in Japan who like dated all those girls and then told each of them that it was his birthday. And then they gave him nice gifts and then he would immediately break up with them.
KAYLA: I did not hear about this
SARAH: he had, he had to pay them back.
KAYLA: That's funny.
SARAH: Japanese, Japanese justice system.
KAYLA: I love that.
SARAH: Anyway, but I mean, I feel like there is like some there is a blurred line as to what counts as catfishing because there's the classic like, I used a fake photo, and I used a fake identity. And I dated you, or I befriended you under false pretenses.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But there's also just like, I don't know, like some people like you can cat… I think it's still kind of catfishing if you're using your own images or even if you're using your own name, but you're just lying about everything. Like I think there is
KAYLA: like a fake like persona kind of
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I mean, people call like photo, like when you do heavy photo editing, or people even say that girls are catfishes when they like, when they were very different with
makeup on or something.
SARAH: (mockingly) Oh that’s why you go swimming on the first date.
KAYLA: Yeah. So like, yeah, I do think it has become a very broad term of basically just like faking some part of yourself specifically on the internet.
SARAH: Yeah. And here on the Wikipedia page, it also mentions the Dateline segment in 2004 to catch a predator, where there were undercover cops posing as minors online to catch pedophiles.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: like that's cat that's catfishing too.
KAYLA: Like that's that was like, I feel like the earliest catfishing was people in chat room, like AOL chat rooms. Yeah, being like, Oh, yeah, I'm definitely like eight, an 18 year old girl. Meanwhile, it's like, a 12 year old boy just like, yeah, fucking around.
SARAH: Yeah, exactly. Catfishing can also be used as a tactic to cyber bully someone online by attacking other individuals online working under a fake or anonymous identity. That was a weird sentence. I think someone should edit that. Since they're using another person's identity or a made up identity, the person is less likely to get into trouble or have consequences as cyber bullying is more difficult to be traced back to them.
KAYLA: Back to the psychology.
SARAH: Sorry.
KAYLA: No, you're good. I mean, that's what they are very more says articles about the victims. That's a very short thing they had to say about perpetrators.
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: But so back in, I think the 80s, there was a study about like attachment styles, specifically between kids and their parents. So if you have ever heard people talk about like anxious, anxious attachment, avoidance
SARAH: Anxious avoidant.
KAYLA: Yeah, that kind of thing. It comes from that study. It's basically just like what it's like kind of like a personality test as it were for like how you act in attached relationships, be they
like familiar, familial or friends or romantic, whatever.
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: So in 2020, there was a study that surveyed people that had been victims of catfish scams to see like what their attachment styles were. And they found that having an anxious attachment style, which you're often like very clingy, very like, obviously like anxious about like the success of your relationship, you might be more like anxious about if someone's cheating on you, that type of thing
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: was a predictor of being a catfish target. And having high avoidance and high anxiety increased the likelihood of being a victim.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: So participants with both avoidant and anxious attachment styles they theorized were drawn to online only relationships because they allowed the victim to be regularly soothed from a safe space while maintaining a comfortable commitment level. So because avoidant people, you know
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: it's like you don't want to be as clingy, not as committed and stuff. So.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Interesting. I'm now reading about the catfishing incident with Manti Te'o in 2013. This is kind of wild. I don't remember this happening. You said you did?
KAYLA: Yeah, I do remember that. It was, he's a college football player, right?
SARAH: Yes. At the time he was a college football player. So he told many media outlets that both his grandmother and his girlfriend had died on September 11th, 2012. Interesting that they both died.
(25:00)
KAYLA: That's weird.
SARAH: Weird. He said that his girlfriend, Stanford University student Lennay Kekua, had been injured in a car accident and was discovered during a treatment to have leukemia. He did not miss any football games for Notre Dame, saying he had promised Kekua that he would play even if something happened to her. Many sports media outlets reported on these tragedies during Te'o's strong 2012 season and emergence as a Heisman Trophy candidate. Then some people got an anonymous tip and they conducted an investigation and they discovered that Kekua did not exist and pointed to a person named Ronaiah – ooh this explains how to say it. Ronaiah Tuisasosopo, who has since come out as a transgender woman but presented at male at the time, is involved in the hoax of the relationship with Te'o. Tuisasosopo has been described as a family friend or acquaintance of Te'o. Pictures of Kekua that have been published in the media were actually of Diane O'meara, a former high school classmate of Tuiasosopo. Notre Dame had to issue a statement saying that he had been the victim of a hoax and then she conspired with others to lead him to believe she had tragically died of leukemia. It was exclusively an online relationship, but this conflicted with previous accounts from Te'o and his family. The couple had first met after a football game, which seems like the kind of thing that you would lie about to the public because they would be like, oh, you met this person online.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Te'o informed Notre Dame of the hoax on December 26, 2012, so he realized it was a hoax before these journalists did
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: but they didn't publicize it. After receiving a phone call from the woman he knew as Kekua, claiming she was still alive. However, Te’o mentioned Kekua's death in at least four separate interviews in the days following the phone call. He had lied to his father and others about meeting her in person because he thought he would be seen as crazy for having a serious relationship with a woman he'd never met in person. He was angered and confused by the December 6 phone call and continued to speak of Kekua because the situation was unclear to him. Interesting.
KAYLA: Yeah, all I really remember from when it came out was everyone was just making fun of him, for getting. Scammed. Which sucks
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: because he thought his girlfriend died.
SARAH: Tuiasosopo also created a female voice behind a privacy screen. Relatives told the New York Post that Kekua's voice belonged to Tuiasosopo's cousin. Despite their revelation that Kekua did not exist, former NFL player Reagan Maui’a said that he met someone twice, claiming to be Kekua, and they had been introduced by Tuiasosopo, whom he believed to be Kekua's cousin. It's wild. It just sucks that that was such a high profile.
KAYLA: Oh, yeah. If it hadn't been the story that his girlfriend had died and he played through it and then had an amazing season, I don't think it ever would have been that public because it had already been a story. He'd already talked about her a ton. If it was just any other relationship, I don't think it would have gotten that much attention.
SARAH: This is not related to catfishing, but this is the wildest personal life section. I'm looking at this guy's Wikipedia. He was born in Hawaii, of Samoan ancestry. He has siblings, blah, blah, blah. In high school, Te'o had a 3.5 grade point average and did volunteer work with the Shriners Hospital, Head Start Preschool Program, Hawaii Food Bank, and Special Olympics. Te'o also became an Eagle Scout in November 2008. Te'o is an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
KAYLA: Oh that’s tough
SARAH: In February 2020, Te'o became engaged to his girlfriend, personal trainer, and beauty consultant Jovi Nicole Angbino. The couple married in San Diego, California on August 29, 2020. Te'o has a daughter, Hiro Te'o, born August 12, 2021. So it looks like he did find love.
KAYLA: Well, I'm glad it worked out.
SARAH: He hasn't played in NFL since 2021.
KAYLA: What does he do?
SARAH: Oh, he was… interesting. He was signed to the Chicago Bears practice squad in 2020. He was briefly put on the active roster for the wild card playoff loss against the New Orleans Saints and reverted back to practice
KAYLA: (laughing) Sports podcast.
SARAH: and then his contract expired. Anyway
KAYLA: R-I-P
SARAH: catfishing.: Sorry, we've gone off the rails.
KAYLA: It's a sports podcast now.
SARAH: I was about to be like, speaking of football
(30:00)
SARAH: and I was going to say it, it's totally unrelated.
KAYLA: I know, but it's like, anyway.
SARAH: Anyway, catfishing.
KAYLA: I'm just scrolling through other psychology articles right now, and it's what you would expect. It's talking about the happy chemicals that are released in your brain, and so then it's similar to an addiction.
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA:: Yeah, of course, because that's how it feels to meet someone that you like in real life. So, of course.
SARAH: Yeah, and as you touched on this earlier, but the people who get catfished are often desperate in some way
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: and I don't mean that as an insult to them.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: I just mean they are desperately seeking something
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: whether that be an interpersonal relationship, whether that be security in some way, and so they fall for the wiles of a catfisher.
KAYLA: True
SARAH: But also, I feel like a lot of catfishers are probably those who aren't necessarily just in it for the money. They're also seeking
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: companionship in a way
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: and they're doing it falsely.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: They're doing it behind a fake identity, but they're still seeking that sort of connection.
KAYLA: They are putting in as much, but honestly, more investment than the person being catfished.
SARAH: Because they have to make up a story that makes sense.
KAYLA: They are making up the story and talking to them just as much, and they have to think about it more because they're lying. I totally forgot about this, but The Circle, the Netflix show?
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: it's like a reality competition type show, but the whole premise is that people live in these apartments, and they only talk to the other contestants through texting and stuff like that. You are allowed to act as yourself, or you can create a fake persona, and then at the end of every episode someone gets voted off as like, you suck.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I don't even know how they decide who to vote out, just like, you suck, I guess.
SARAH: It's not even just like, because it's not just I think you're a catfish. I think it certainly can be sometimes, but also it's just like, your vibes are off, you’re voted off the island.
KAYLA: No, it's literally like, we don't like hanging out with you.
SARAH: RIP.
KAYLA: But I totally forgot about that. That's the entire premise of that show. I haven't watched it, but I do know that a lot of people, I think there was a model, someone that was just very gorgeous, and she was like, well, I can't act as myself because people are going to think I'm fake
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: because pictures of me are the type of pictures people use to be fake.
SARAH: So you can anti catfish.
KAYLA: Yeah. And this one guy, I think was pretending to be a girl, and he was like in the all girls group chat, and they were like talking about periods, and he had like no idea what he started just saying stupid shit.
SARAH: That's when you just shut the fuck up Friday. Just keep your mouth shut.
KAYLA: (laughing) Shut the fuck up Friday, that’s so funny
SARAH: Just keep your mouth shut. Every day is shut the fuck up Friday. Okay. But yeah, I mean, that show is literally based around the concept of catfishing and...
KAYLA: Interesting. I'm reading another psychology article.
SARAH: I can see that.
KAYLA: An investigation of 26 catfishers by researchers at the University of Queensland found that they were motivated by loneliness, struggles with social connection, dissatisfaction with their bodies, desire to escape, or a need to explore aspects of their gender or sexual identity.
SARAH: Hmm, interesting.
KAYLA: That makes sense to me, because if you are like a closeted, like gay man say, and you're like, really like, very repressed about it to yourself
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: then it might feel better to pretend to be a woman, who's like romancing a man.
SARAH: Or it might feel better to, even if you're pretending to be a man, pretending to be someone else, just anyone who is not you.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Yeah, that's interesting. That makes sense to me.
KAYLA: Oh, this is a good point. Scientific American also notes that catfish can be motivated by
a phenomenon called the online distribution effect, where online anonymity makes people
feel less likely to adhere to moral codes, because, you know...
SARAH: You're behind a little screen.
KAYLA: (vaguely British accent) On a little computer
SARAH: This is not related to catfishing, because I don't believe this person is catfishing anyone, but there is a person I know on BTS Twitter who, she was originally not gonna give her identity, but then she ended up eventually posting pictures of herself and saying where she was from, but she still doesn't use her real name. So it's just like, I've seen her face, I know where she lives, but I only know her as...
KAYLA: I mean, that's like an alias, you know?
SARAH: Yeah, it's just funny.
KAYLA: Moral of the story is don't catfish people.
(35:00)
KAYLA: I think it is okay to catfish if you are trying to catch men being creepy to underage people.
SARAH: Yeah, or if you're trying to steal from the Islamic State.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Stealing from terrorists, stealing from misogynists, stealing from Proud Boys, stealing from the KKK, all delightful and morally upright things to do.
KAYLA: I feel like I remember people... I don't know if anyone actually did this, or if they were joking about it, but going on Tinder and pretending to be a Trump supporter, and then being like, oh my God, were you at the insurrection, show me pictures. And then they sent them to the FBI. I'm almost positive I saw...
SARAH: I think that happened at least once, yeah.
KAYLA: Which that? Love it.
SARAH: Do you want to know where I was January 6th?
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: There's a number of ways that you can kill a congressman.
KAYLA: Alright that’s enough
SARAH: Every time I hear the real song, it's like what, April 29th or something, it sounds wrong to me because I've heard the January 6th version so many times. Catfishing.
KAYLA: Don’t do it
SARAH: It's bad, unless it's catfishing with purpose. Who would you most like to catfish?
KAYLA: What do you mean by that?
SARAH: I'd like to catfish Elon Musk. No.
KAYLA: Oh, yeah.
SARAH: I'd like to catfish Nick Cannon.
KAYLA: I don't think that would take much work. I think he would probably be really easy to catfish.
SARAH: We, over New Year's, we really did a deep dive into Nick Cannon. You know how he has had 12 kids?
KAYLA: Yes, I'm well aware.
SARAH: Most of them were in the past two years.
KAYLA: With how many women?
SARAH: A total of six women.
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: In 2022, he fathered five children.
KAYLA: What?
SARAH: From, no, six, sorry, he fathered six children. No, it was either five or six
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: from five different mothers. The crazy thing is that it's not like he's going through new ones. He went back to baby mama number three, I think, this past year. She came back for more.
KAYLA: What are these women? I want to know their side of the story.
SARAH: All of the kids have horrible names, I'm sorry.
KAYLA: I’m sure. I’m sure they do.
SARAH: I'm sorry, but those names are bad. The only one who I trust is Mariah Carey.
KAYLA: What do you think it is? Wait he has a baby with Mariah Carey?
SARAH: He was married to Mariah Carey. His first two kids were with Mariah Carey.
KAYLA: What?
SARAH: For a totally reasonable amount of time, he only had his kids with Mariah Carey. Hold on, I got to pull this up now.
KAYLA: How is this possible? He must just really hate condoms.
SARAH: Yeah. Also, he has had two sets of twins, which he apparently, I guess...
KAYLA: I mean, he probably has twins in his family or something.
SARAH: Yeah. So he got married to Mariah Carey in 2008. They got divorced in 2016, but they started the divorce proceedings in 2014. It just took a long time to finalize them
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: because they're rich. So for six years, he only had two kids.
KAYLA: Mhm
SARAH: He had a set of twins with Mariah Carey.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: Then in 2017, he had a child with baby mama number two, and then another one in 2020. And then this is where it gets off the rails,
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: because he had another baby with her in… Sorry, did I say 2022? I meant 20… I don't know, whatever. Baby mama two, he had three kids with. 2017, 2020, 2022. Baby mama number three, three kids: two in 2021, they were twins, and one in 2022. Baby mama number four, he had one born in 2021, but that one died at five months because he had a brain… something
KAYLA: Ugh, yikes
SARAH: and then another one in 2022. Baby mama number five, 2022. Baby mama number six, 2022. He had three children born within a month of each other from two different mothers.
(40:00)
SARAH: His most recent child was born, according to Wikipedia, 19 days ago.
KAYLA: I was like, what is it that he's doing?
SARAH: He currently has a 19-day-old, a one-month-old, two three-month-olds, and a five-month-old, currently, and a six-month-old. I'm so sorry, and a six-month-old.
KAYLA: It's not like it's super easy to get pregnant for all people, you know?
SARAH: Right. Yeah.
KAYLA: So just the odds of the… I mean, obviously, doesn't wear a condom.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Obviously, these women are more than likely not on birth control.
SARAH: And I guess they know what they're getting themselves into.
KAYLA: I mean, they have to, but is he doing it on purpose?
SARAH: Several of them came back for more. Now, the one whose child died, I can understand the psychology
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: but baby mama number two, who first had a child with him in 2017, had another child with him in 2020, and then in 2022, when he was just impregnating all these other women, also came back.
KAYLA: Maybe it's just a thing of, because he sees, I'm assuming, sees these women in some way, because they're co-parenting
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: so it's just like they're around each other enough, and then they're like, ah, I still like you enough, we can have a little hookup. And then it's like, uh-oh, pregnant again.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: So then you see them even more, because you're co-parenting two kids, and then you're like, oh, I guess we can…
SARAH: But is he, Mariah Carey said that he's a bad dad.
KAYLA: I would believe it.
SARAH: Also, one of his children is named Zillion Air Cannon. Anyway, oh, wow, I didn't realize that he had been fired in 2020 by ViacomCBS for being anti-semitic.
KAYLA: Okay, all right
SARAH: oh boy
KAYLA: all right
SARAH: oh boy. Okay, anyway
KAYLA: That was the episode
SARAH: if you ever feel the needs to do a deep dive into Nick Cannon's impregnation of a multitude of women, I recommend it, because it's unhinged.
KAYLA: I think it would be easy to catfish him, moral of the story.
SARAH: Yeah, that's why I would want to catfish him, because I think it would be funny, and I think it would work.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: (laughing) Sorry, I'm so sorry. After announcing he would be celibate for a while in late 2021, he and model Brie Tiese had a son in June 2022.
KAYLA: Oh, that's very funny.
SARAH: June 28th, 2022. Sorry, this is very, it's in, it's by baby mama, and it's not in the order of the children, and it's confusing me. Okay, June 28th, 2022. Child. September 14th, 2022. Child. September 23rd, 2022. Child. November 11th, 2022. Child. December 14th, 2022. Child. Obviously, all different baby mamas, because it would not be possible.
KAYLA: Yeah, that's five children last year.
SARAH: Five children last year, five baby mamas.
KAYLA: What do these women see in him?
SARAH: I gotta stop. We gotta stop this. Okay.
KAYLA: Child support?
SARAH: Well, then my question is like, I don't know. He's got to keep working solely to be able to pay his child support. Anyway. Okay.
KAYLA: Unless he has a real good lawyer.
SARAH: I doubt it. We also were saying that, like, Mariah Carey doesn't need to sue him because she has Mariah Carey money.
KAYLA: Yeah but she should
SARAH: But some of the others, but then we were like, well, they could do a class action lawsuit.
KAYLA: (laughing) Because there's so many. Oh my God.
SARAH: Anyway, that was our podcast about catfishing.
KAYLA: You're welcome.
SARAH: What's our poll for this week? Would you catfish Nick Cannon?
KAYLA: Who would you most like to catfish?
SARAH: Who would you most like to catfish? I also think Elon Musk would be a really good one to catfish.
KAYLA: I think that would be good. I'm trying to think of a good one.
SARAH: I think it would also be really entertaining to catfish, like, a really high profile, right wing politician.
KAYLA: Mm. Yeah.
SARAH: I just think that would be funny. I know that when they started that dating app for right wingers, they were like, oh no, it's just guys on here. Where are all the girls?
KAYLA: Oh my god
SARAH: And I feel like there was definitely some catfishing in there of people just being like, oh, I'll pretend to be a conservative woman
(45:00)
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: and see what happens.
KAYLA: You've got to get off the Nick Cannon train.
SARAH: I'm so sorry. He was on a show called Real Husbands of Hollywood that aired on BET starting in January 2013. And it went on until 2016. But at least half of that time, he was in the process of a divorce.
KAYLA: I don't know.
SARAH: Wow
KAYLA: Stop reading Nick Cannon's information. You have to stop. It's over.
SARAH: I'm closing it.
KAYLA: Put it away. Close the tab.
SARAH: Snoop Dogg was in season 3.
KAYLA: No, no, no.
SARAH: Okay, that was our poll. Kayla, what's your juice and your beef this week?
KAYLA: Oh.
SARAH: Can I tell you mine?
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: Can I tell you mine? My beef is that I can't hear properly out of my mouth.
KAYLA: Yes. Sarah's family helped her flush her ear of earwax as she sent me a picture. It was crazy.
SARAH: And I still can't hear correctly.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: I think I might have to go to a real doctor.
KAYLA: Yeah, I think you're right.
SARAH: It sucks. My juice is… It's gotta be something. My juice is… Oh, my juice is that I thought I was going to completely run out of pages in my BTS desk calendar, which I put all of my little stars on for when I work out and I was really stressed because I didn't have a replacement yet because I didn't do season's greetings this year. And I was like, what am I going to do? And I didn't like all the options online. And I was like, I need to have a calendar so I can put my little stars on it so I can just give myself a little gold star every time I work out. But then I discovered they also have a January 2023. So I have another month to figure it out.
KAYLA: Thank God.
SARAH: That's my juice. Continue.
KAYLA: I love that
SARAH: What is your beef and juice?
KAYLA: My beef is that my body is old. We had a New Year's party for New Year's.
SARAH: Mhm. That's usually why you have them.
KAYLA: Granted, I did wrestle during the party because it was necessary and I had been challenged. I did win.
SARAH: Who did you wrestle?
KAYLA: Our neighbor.
SARAH: (laughing) What was going on?
KAYLA: Because like a month ago, two of my roommates had wrestled. And then we were talking about who should wrestle next. And our neighbor was like, Kayla, I'm going to beat you. And I was like, that's not true.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: So then we had to wrestle. So granted, yes, I did wrestle. But I just woke up the next day and I was sore everywhere.
SARAH: If it's any consolation, you looked very hot.
KAYLA: I did. Everyone go like my Instagram. I looked great. I was like literally just from a night of drinking and one wrestling incident, I felt so...
SARAH: Yeah. One minor wrestling incident.
KAYLA: Yeah one minor wrestling incident. Yes, that's my beef. My juice is that we did our roommate Christmas gifts today. And my roommate Perry made me a clock that says silly goose o'clock. And there's gooses all over because it is always...
SARAH: Geese.
KAYLA: It's always silly geese o'clock.
SARAH: Yeah, that's so true.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I'm always a silly goose.
KAYLA: Exactly. My Instagram bio says everyone go look at it. And then like my Instagram and then click the link in my Instagram bio right under my book. @Kayla_cas
SARAH: @Kayla_cas Great. All right. You can tell us about your beef, your juice. You could tell Kayla @Kayla_Cas.
KAYLA: Just comment on our photos with your beef and your juice.
SARAH: Or you could find it on our social media at SoundsFakePod. We also have Patreon if you want to support us there. Patreon.com/SoundsFakePod. We have a couple new patrons. Thank you.
KAYLA: Wow
SARAH: A new $5 patron. We have Cade Archer. Thank you, Cade.
KAYLA: Hi
SARAH: What a delight. We also have Tall_Darryl, who I have to assume is at least seven feet tall.
KAYLA: I love that name. That’s excellent. That's perfect.
SARAH: Our other $5 patrons who we are promoting this week are Sofiia P, the Forest Pigeon, the Stubby Tech, and Vishakh. It's funny because Tall_Darryl, the Forest Pigeon, and the Stubby Tech are all in a row.
KAYLA: Great. As they should be.
SARAH: It's truly, truly phenomenal. Because I didn't put T's. What? Hello. Our $10 patrons who we are promoting this week are SongofStorm, who would like to promote a healthy work-life balance. I hope that everyone had some time off over the holidays and once you return to work, you're like, shit, I work too much.
KAYLA: That's another beef I have
SARAH: And you choose to dial it down
KAYLA: is that I had to return to work and it made me sad.
SARAH: Yeah, I went to drive to… My boss just texted me. Sir?
KAYLA: Sir?
SARAH: Sir. In his time zone
(50:00)
SARAH: it is almost 1am.
KAYLA: Sir, go to bed.
SARAH: Anyway, I didn't like that at all. I forgot. Oh, I was driving to work the other day and I was like, wait, how the fuck do I get to work?
KAYLA: Good.
SARAH: Anyway, Steve, who would like to promote Ecosia, a search engine for the trees and Zirklteo, who would like to promote the fact that England isn't real. And this remains true as time passes.
KAYLA: We watched Matilda the musical today and we were all reminded of how silly British people are.
SARAH: You know what?
KAYLA: Good movie, though.
SARAH: Juice? The Glass Onion.
KAYLA; So good.
SARAH: My dad kept calling it Green Onion and he went to look it up on Netflix and he typed in green and I said, Sir?
KAYLA: No, Jack. Incorrect.
SARAH: Our other ten dollar patrons are Arcnes, Alyson, Ari K, Benjamin Ybarra, Cass, CinnamonToastPunch, David Jay, Derek Nurse. Nope, David Nurse. Derek and Karissa, Elle Bitter. We have a new one. It's JB.
KAYLA: Hello, Justin Bieber.
SARAH: What would you like to promote? What would you like to promote, Justin Bieber? Please tell us. My aunt Jeannie, Maggie Capalbo, Martin Chiesl, Mattiie, Potater, Purple Hayes, Rosie Costello, Barefoot Backpacker, and that's it. Our fifteen dollar patrons are Andrew Hillum, who would like to promote the Invisible Spectrum Podcast, Click4Caroline, who would like to promote Ace of Hearts, Dia Chappell, who would like to promote twitch.tv/MelodyDia, Hector Murillo, who would like to promote friends, promote friends that are supportive, constructive and help you grow as a better person. John Young. John, have you messaged? Oh, a cat has made an appearance. We'd like to promote Bogie wanting to be a part of this episode. You're in my way, bestie. Keziah Root, who would like to promote the people who come into your life just for a small time, but right when you need them. Nathaniel White, who would like to promote NathanielJWhitetDesigns.com. Kayla’s Aunt Nina, who would like to promote katemaggartart.com, And Sara Jones, who is @eternalloli everywhere. Our twenty dollar patrons are Sabrina Hauck. Merry Christmas from your parents. A year ago.
KAYLA: Another year. Another year of Christmas.
SARAH: Another year of Christmas. It just keeps happening. And Dragonfly, who would like to promote… Bogie's fur has been much softer recently.
KAYLA: Very shiny
SARAH: Yeah, it's been so much softer recently. Thanks for listening. Tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: Until then, take good care of your cows.
(52:25)