Ep 152: Being Non-Binary feat. A Friend
Listen to Ep 152: Being Non-Binary feat. A Friend here!
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SARAH: Hey what’s up hello. Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl (I’m Sarah. That’s me.)
KAYLA:… and a demi-straight girl (that’s me, Kayla)
INA: And I guess a queer person, that’s me, Ina, hi.
SARAH: talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else that we just don’t understand.
KAYLA: On today’s episode: being non-binary.
ALL: — Sounds fake, but okay.
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod.
KAYLA: Ohh Jeebus.
SARAH: I have one.
KAYLA: You do it then.
SARAH: M’mm bop. Bop bop. It’s the one I texted you about — it came to me, in the middle of the — right before I went to bed. MMMBOP by Hanson it’s a classic 90’s jam.
KAYLA: Yeah. I don’t know that I like that you’re taking my thing.
SARAH: Sorry.
KAYLA: Well. I guess Sarah did it this time.
SARAH: Literally I was laying in my bed trying to fall asleep —
KAYLA: — and it came to you in a dream.
SARAH: That’s life.
KAYLA: Oh anyway.
SARAH: Alright. Cool. I always feel weird doing that when we have guests cause they’re always like, “what the fuck is going on.”
KAYLA: Me too. I hate it.
SARAH: Kayla, what are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: This week we have a very special guest — and friend — on to talk about being non-binary because very long ago we had a lovely patron request this as an episode because if you are a $15 patron you get to choose the topic of an episode and we had a very hard time finding a good guest and it was very dramatic—
SARAH: We got ghosted by someone.
KAYLA: We got ghosted — listen —
SARAH: And I was like, wait, I know Ina.
KAYLA: Wait, we have someone. Anyway, this week we have Ina.
SARAH: Hiiii Ina.
INA: Hi.
SARAH: So, long story short, the reason I know Ina is because I studied abroad in Germany as some of you know.
KAYLA: Sarah, did you study abroad in Germany?
SARAH: I totally did. And I joined the quidditch team in Tübingen, and Ina was on that quidditch team.
INA: And that is how we met.
SARAH: That’s the whole story.
KAYLA: It’s very elaborate.
INA: Yeah, quidditch.
SARAH: Basically it’s just some nerds playing sports ball. Ina, do you have anything you’d like to say about yourself, what your identity is? How you identify just to inform the masses?
INA: Sure, usually I just go by queer cause that’s easiest and I don’t have to explain a lot. I’m not fixed on any specific labels cause I feel like that changes all the time and so yeah I just go by queer and non-binary cause that way I can be whatever and not have to explain or justify.
KAYLA: That’s very fair.
SARAH: Very fair.
KAYLA: And you are in school. You’re doing school.
INA: Yeah, right. I’ve been studying — as established before we started recording — for a very long time. I’m actually a lit major. I’m doing a Master’s so I guess a post-grad for you guys.
KAYLA: So fancy.
INA: Yeah, just English literature. I hope I’ll be done by next year. We’ll see where this takes me. And how long it takes to finish cause it’s been quite the rough ride since corona and everything so.
SARAH: Yayyy.
KAYLA: Rip rip.SARAH: Excellent. Alright. Do we want to give some disclaimers? A classic Sounds Fake disclaimer?
KAYLA: A classic Sounds Fake disclaimer.
SARAH: Obviously, Ina does not speak for all non-binary people. Every person who’s non-binary has their own experience of things and their own understanding of their identity. Just as we don’t intend to be the asexual perspective obviously, Ina is not the non-binary perspective. Do you have any other disclaimers you’d like to add to that?
INA: I don’t know. Just be kind if I mess up. First time speaking about gender publicly.
KAYLA: Yes.
INA: I usually talk about queer stuff and sexuality a lot, kind of more comfortable with that. But, yeah. Apart from that, just what Sarah said. I’m just me.
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KAYLA: We’re all learning and growing.
INA: Yeah.
KAYLA: Don’t take this as a non-binary or gender 101. Sarah and I are obviously cis women so are very well probably going to mess up or probably going to say something incorrect. So, if we do, obviously feel free to correct us. We want to learn and be better. But also, just do it nicely.
SARAH: Yeah, don’t scream at us on the Internet.
KAYLA: We see you, one person that does that.
SARAH: We see you, our one hater.
KAYLA: I don’t know if you’re listening. But I know who you are, our one hater on Twitter.
INA: Do you have a lot of people hate on you?
KAYLA: There’s definitely one I know of and I think there’s some general people that aren’t huge fans but there’s definitely one person who does not like us.
SARAH: Yeah. You know that’s life.
KAYLA: Anyway. Not to just air that all out.
SARAH: That’s just life. Okay. Let’s just dive in then. So, Ina how did you figure you were non-binary?
INA: It started with me questioning my sexuality more than my gender. And yeah, I had thoughts about it when I was in seventh grade. But then I forgot about that.
SARAH: Classic move.
INA: As you do when puberty hits and everything is a bit crazy. Once then I finished high school and went to college, I got back on to thinking about it and had a lot of questions to myself. What do I like? What do I not like? Just the general question kept popping up. I got my sexuality figured out way faster than I did my gender stuff and it basically actually took quidditch for me to figure it out cause I started playing quidditch one year before you came to Tübingen, Sarah. And you had to put in your gender on the players’ list and it was like “female,” “male,” “non-binary.” And the female label always bugged me a little bit. So I started thinking about it and yeah that’s basically how I figured it out. Just by being confronted with the topic I guess. I’d never really felt comfortable labeling myself as “woman” and I know there are non-binary people who sometimes feel like a woman and sometimes feel like a man. There are people who don’t feel like either. There are people who — they’re genderfluid and it keeps going back and forth. And for me it was like, I didn’t identify as a woman or a man. And it crystalized in that context.
SARAH: So you were given the options — enby let’s go.
KAYLA: I’ll take none of them, thank you.
INA: It actually wasn’t that easy. I might have made that sound easier than it was.
KAYLA: Well yes.
SARAH: Obviously.
INA: Well no. I was actually very reluctant to call myself non-binary cause I don’t have strong feelings about my body like many people do. I’m also a very hardcore feminist so there’s also there’s this question, am I rejecting the concept of a woman or womanhood or do I really not feeling like a woman? So I was kind of going back and forth in between those and then there was also — I’m getting into a lot so just stop me —
SARAH: No you’re good. It’s interesting.
INA: So there was also the question of gender expression and gender identity cause I always felt like I wasn’t non-binary enough in my gender expression cause when you see me walking around the street you would think I am a woman. So yeah, I struggled with that for a very long time until I realized it’s okay to just look the way I want to and that it’s more about what’s in between my ears than it is about how I look or how people perceive me.
SARAH: Did you struggle with social pressure to either identify — I don’t know where this question is going — was there social pressure in terms of “I am not non-binary enough” or that sort of thing?
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INA: I don’t know I always felt in the realm of quidditch it was convenient for me to be non-binary sometimes but when it wasn’t convenient it would be forgotten if you guys can relate to that since you guys played quidditch. So yeah I was tokenized and that annoyed me a lot cause nobody wanted to know about gender inclusivity or non-binary stuff until it came to the point where it didn’t fulfil gender rule — I don’t know maybe you guys explaned gender rule.
SARAH: Yeah, I remember one time, at one of our tournaments, someone was like “we have too many men on the field, we don’t have enough whatever” — they were concerned about gender rule and they were like “just put Ina in,” and I was like, “okay well, it’s a little more than that, okay, technically that is following the rules.”
INA: I’m not the most sporty person either so it kind of always felt like the only time I was allowed to play was when it was convenient cause of gender rule and other people needed to rest. It was never because they wanted to put me on the field. People actually never perceived me as non-binary, so when I’d tell them to stop calling me a woman it’s always very hard cause I have to justify it. There’s this expectation of non-binary people to look a certain way. Many non-binary people look very androgynous or they do genderbending stuff where they visibly don’t conform to a certain gender so I guess it’s easier for people to see that they don’t identify as a man or a woman. But for me I don’t look that way. I always have to justify why I don’t look that way and still identify as non-binary.
KAYLA: Is there a certain way you found that you navigate these issues? If you’re out at a store and there’s a bunch of strangers and someone calls you “Ma’am” or clearly is identifying you as a woman, or in social situations where people don’t know you as well, how do you navigate deciding “should I fully come out to this person? Do I really want to get into that right now?” I feel like it’s kind of similar when you come out as ace, you have to give them a whole talk about what it is.
INA: Yeah, and giving a talk is exhausting sometimes. Yeah it kind of depends on my mood. I kind of see if it’s worth making the effort and most of the time, it’s not. Also, I don’t know. So, I’m from Germany — still live here. People don’t usually address people by “woman” or “ma’am” or “Mr.” or whatever you in the US tend to use a lot.
KAYLA: Us Americans.
SARAH: Whatever weird things we say.
INA: Yeah, exactly. People just go by “Sie” which is, “you.”
SARAH: The formal version.
INA: Yeah the formal version. So there doesn’t tend to be that much of an issue with strangers. It’s usually with people you’re in contact with more often. Most of the time it depends very much on how I’m feeling that day. So I basically tell my friends and I used to correct people on the quidditch team also. But, just for random strangers, it’s too much of a hassle I guess.
SARAH: That’s fair.
KAYLA: Yeah that makes a lot of sense.
SARAH: I also did want to ask, because, for those who know or are familiar with German, it is a very binary language in that everything is gendered. You’re not a teacher, you’re a Lehrer or a Lehrerin. You’re a female teacher or a male teacher and that’s just how it is. Do you find that you have more trouble in German than in English? You know like 45 languages.
INA: Yeah so German is very hard cause every word is gendered. And I actually struggled a lot. I’m taking various degrees at the same time but I’m also doing a teaching degree and for that you have to do an internship. So when I went to school and I had to introduce myself to students, I actually thought about it very long time, how I would introduce myself cause I had the option of calling myself Frau So-und-So so Ms. whatever, or Mr. And there wasn’t one good way to introduce myself that wasn’t gendered, so I struggled a lot with that. And out of — I have to admit it — fear, I just went with Ms. because it just seemed easier than stepping in front of 20 different classes every single time. I didn’t know if I’d do the same thing now cause I feel like I’m in a different place with my identity at this point. This was I think 3 years ago and back then I just went with Ms.
SARAH: That’s fair, if you’re not comfortable being out in a situation like that. I don’t blame you if you weren’t comfortable at that point.
KAYLA: You also don’t know the kind of people that are going to be in classes. You don’t know if you say something like that, if someone is going to react really badly or be super ignorant. That’s just a very vulnerable position to put yourself in especially if you’re starting a new job or putting yourself in a new position. That’s terrifying.
INA: Yeah, also it was a practical decision. If you’re going to stay somewhere long term and always teach the same people, you might as well just for your own mental health. But the internship situation was that we were in a class maybe 2 or 3 times max and it would have taken up a whole hour of a class and all the teachers at the school would be kind of annoyed although they wouldn’t say it. But you should take up that space, and now I would but at that point I didn’t feel confident and comfortable enough. But what I do do know, I don’t know if you guys know, Sarah I don’t know if you know, I do these workshops where we talk about sexual identity and gender identity and how there’s not just women and men and there’s not just straight people on this planet. There I really consciously take up that space and make it very clear just so that it’s an impulse and people have met a person that is non-binary and have an idea of what that might look like.
SARAH: Yeah, fair enough.
INA: But it’s basically a line you navigate every day and I feel like I’m going to navigate it for the rest of my life.
SARAH: Probably true.
INA: Same with coming out as ace. You guys should probably be able to relate.
SARAH: And speaking of gender identity and sexuality, I know you said that you came to terms with your sexuality before you did with your gender identity. How do they interact? Do they impact each other at all in the realm of dating? Do you feel like it has a big impact?
INA: Of course it does have an impact. First and foremost your sexual identity is dependent on your gender identity most of the time. If you look at different terms for sexuality, they usually imply something about your gender identity as well. People don’t really know how to interact with a non-binary person most of the time unless it’s someone that is also non-binary which makes dating a whole lot easier. So I tend to not date men. There were a few exceptions. I don’t hate men I just hate the patriarchy.
KAYLA: I am currently dating a man and I love him very much but I also know that —
SARAH: Listen, Kayla dates men, she knows how awful it is.
KAYLA: Why, you know.
INA: Yeah so I tend to not date men. I date whoever I find interesting, I guess, fall in love with.
KAYLA: But men aren’t interesting, you know?
INA: Kinda, yeah.
KAYLA: It’s okay you can say it. It’s okay.
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INA: Dating wise, it’s like to having to disclaimer your identity every time you go on a date with someone new. Because if you’re dating queer people they usually thing, okay, sexuality is probably not straight but gender identity, you have to disclaimer. Then it’s like, “oh.” And then you have to explain so much. So that always takes up a lot of space. And then most people — not most people, but a lot of people — have not thought about if they would want to date someone that is non-binary. I’m not implying in anyway that you shouldn’t date a non-binary person or there is something wrong with it but a lot of people have to think about it.
SARAH: Especially if you’re socialized as a straight person, you’ve always assumed you’re a straight person, to be faced with someone who is like, “oh I really like this person, they identify as non-binary but I identify as straight” is there anything butting heads there and a lot of straight people — that’s the first time they’ve had to think about identity in that way and it kind of blows their mind.
INA: And I’ve unfortunately made experienced dating someone who was straight and they were like, “oh you’re non-binary” and basically were too lazy to think about it, so they were like, “I can’t deal with this right now.” Or, I came out during a relationship cause when I started that relationship I was still kind of mulling things over for myself and my partner then, she nudged me and she was like, “Hey I wanted to talk to you about this, is there any chance you are non-binary,” and I was like “yeah,” and her comment was, “oh so I haven’t slept with a woman after all.”
SARAH: Jesus.KAYLA: Why is that? Why do you caaaaare? Was she mad she couldn’t be a gold star gay anymore?
INA: Oh no she was bisexual.
KAYLA: Well then what the fuck is the problem?
INA: There was no problem but in her head she was kind of — it was more important for her to express that she was sad she hadn’t had sex with a woman before than it was to tell me that it was okay. So yeah.
KAYLA: Love that.
INA: Needless to say that ended quickly after that.
SARAH: I think that emphasizes too even in queer communities, a lot of times it’s still very binary and it’s like, “okay everything is fluid, nothing fucking matters, so guys calm down.”KAYLA: Literally nothing matters.
SARAH: They still really follow that binary huh?
INA: Yeah. I think that is basically the biggest hurdle that you have dating as a non-binary person or at least that’s been my experience.
KAYLA: That sucks.
SARAH: I thought you were going to ask a question and you just go, “that sucks.”
KAYLA: Well no I’m just thinking about it. And I do think it is in some ways pretty similar to the ace experience where it’s like not as many people have heard of being non-binary as they have heard of — people know what trans is, but they don’t know what non-binary is. They just know about being a cisgender person. It’s just so exhausting. It just sucks. That’s all I have to say. Like you said, it’s just something you have to deal with for the rest of your life. Kind of like me and Sarah are going to have to deal with certain things for the rest of our lives or like any queer person does. And I feel like straight and cis people don’t think about that enough.
INA: Yeah I don’t know. I have a lot of asexual friends actually. And they compare it also. People know about being gay, bisexual, pansexual even nowadays and people know about being trans and people don’t know about being asexual. Don’t know about the spectrum of asexuality at all. And they also don’t know about non-binary and the spectrum of non-binary.
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SARAH: Those are the two things in their respective categories of gender and sexuality. It just doesn’t quite fit in the binary that people understand so when people learn to understand about it for the first time it really throws them all. Like we say with asexuality, it tips people’s worldview on its head and I think non-binary does kind of the same thing.
INA: Yeah, they’re forced to question their own world they’ve built for themselves. And that can be very hard for some people.
KAYLA: For some people it can get them to start questioning their gender which might just be — once they know it’s an option to be non-binary they could not be ready for that conversation with themselves.
INA: Yeah, I was not ready for that conversation with myself. It took years. Also non-binary is kind of an umbrella term. I know people that identify as non-binary but non-binary is an umbrella term for so many more different gender identities and it’s all very individual because there don’t seem to be that many written rules. I don’t know if you’re following my train of thought.
SARAH: Yeah. I have an extended family member who identify as non-binary and also trans. They use they/them pronouns but they had top surgery and they changed their name. That’s not the same experience that you have. But they’re both valid.
INA: They both exist and are both as valid. But it makes for a lot of “but I thought being non-binary was this, but I thought being trans was that” and so it just confuses people a lot.
SARAH: So, let’s talk about pronouns.
KAYLA: A hard turn into pronouns.
SARAH: So on your Instagram, which is where I confirmed this, it says you use she/they pronouns. What was the process for deciding to use both for you?
INA: Basically those are the pronouns I feel comfortable with and since I’m not out to the entire world, and I don’t intend to be out to the entire world, going by “she” — as we talked about before — where there are strangers that have to address me and I don’t want to be bothered, I just go by “she” and my friends use “they” I guess. Most days I’m fine with either/or. There’s not a lot of days where I wouldn’t feel comfortable with “she.” I was kind of just was like, yeah whichever of those two is fine with me. And if I’m not feeling “she” on a certain day I’ll just let you know.
KAYLA: Not she today.
SARAH: Just punch you in the face and say, “not today.” Try again tomorrow.
INA: No no no. I’ll just be like, “Could you use ‘they’ today please?” I don’t tend to punch people. Unless we’re playing quidditch.
SARAH: That’s true and they deserve it. In German — and this is just a me question — the they in German, is it just the same as English, the “sie plural,” is it just used in the same way?
INA: No, basically there is no equivalent for “they” in German.
SARAH: That’s what I thought. I was like, that is confusing to me.
INA: I live in my very weird small bubble where I talk English to my friends all day every day so it’s not an issue. There are some pronouns that are gender neutral that people have made up to use for themselves, there isn’t a gender neutral pronoun like “they” in English, which makes for very interesting pronouns. I don’t know a lot of them, I have to be honest.
SARAH: I looked them up recently and I was like, I don’t even know how to say these.
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INA: Yeah, there’s one that is “sier” I don’t know if I can remember any other ones. So I just use “they” in German. So we talk German and we’re just like, “they” and then they just keep talking in German.
SARAH: Classic Denglish, happens to the best of us.
INA: Yeah. (laughing)
SARAH: Interesting. I just find it really interesting how in different languages there’s different hurdles in talking — like gendered language. And I just.
KAYLA: Is there any movement on anyone’s part to make German less binary? Or less gendered in general? I know that would fuck up the entire language but does anyone talk about that?
INA: Yeah, definitely. For example a couple of years ago there was a very big discussion about the university changing the student office and calling it Studierenden instead of Studierender. Studierender is like the male version, and Studierende is gender neutral. It was a big uproar. They’ve been trying to make their language more inclusive by using nouns that are gender neutral versions of the same nouns cause you basically can make a male, a female, a gender neutral noun out of anything that is living in German language. That is alive. Anyways.
SARAH: German is weird and there are a lot of rules but that also means that you can do fun things.
INA: Yes! So, you basically can use a gender neutral version for every word that addresses a person if you want to, or that talks about a person or a group of people which would also solve the problem of — in German the preferred version is always the male version which obviously excludes women but yeah. There are actually some universities who just use the female version now in all of their official correspondence, which is a bit extreme in the other direction. I’m not judging it as negative or positive in anyway but it’s the other extreme, that’s what I wanted to say. There has been stuff moving but there has also been a push against, “why should we be doing this, why’s this important, I’ve never heard of this, I don’t know anybody who’s not gender-conforming” and stuff like that.
SARAH: For me, I started learning German 10 years ago in the United States so obviously it’s going to take longer to get to German as a foreign language learner— those changes. But it’s good that people are talking about it.
KAYLA: I did see a tweet recently of someone in a university class for German or French and their professor reached out them and was like, “hey I noticed on your intake form or whatever your pronouns were they/them — I know German is super gendered so how can we figure something out.” So, that was cool.
SARAH: That’s UK
INA: I actually really love being in the UK for that reason. Cause on every form you have the option of choosing Mx instead of “Ms.” or “Mrs.” or “Mr.” Also in university, you didn’t have to come out to anyone, could just put that as your title I guess. And then it’s just done and everyone knows how to address you. I’m like, can we not have this in Germany? But there is no gender neutral —
KAYLA: Can’t we have that everywhere?
INA: Yes.
SARAH: You should make one up. When people ask you start giving it to them and they’re like, “what is that?” and you’re like, “it’s the gender neutral version. I’m inventing a word guys.”
KAYLA: It’s like the Frindle.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Did you read Frindle?
SARAH: I read Frindle.
KAYLA: I’m assuming Ina you’ve never heard of Frindle.
INA: No.
KAYLA: It was this children’s book where this child decided instead of calling pens “pens,” he was going to start calling them frindles and get everyone to say that so by the end of the book, they changed the word for pen in the dictionary. And that’s the whole thing.
SARAH: And for some reason, everyone who’s our age in the United States has read this book.
KAYLA: This is absolutely not the first time Frindle has come up on this podcast, there’s no way.
I can reread it. Do you want to start a podcast where we read Frindle?
SARAH: No!
KAYLA: And analyze it?
SARAH: Not really.
KAYLA: Oh. I’ll find someone to do it I don’t need you.
SARAH: Okay.
KAYLA: I already quit this podcast earlier this week I’m just here as a formality.
SARAH: You’ve quit this podcast so many times.
INA: Juse courtesy at this point. Try and imagine making up a mixed version of Frau and Herr
KAYLA: Frauherr
SARAH: You can say “frere,” which just means brother in French.
INA: “you should use Hau,” like hitting. Sorry.
SARAH: Excellent.
INA: In other languages, if you look at Romance languages, the female versions of words always have an “a” and the male versions always have an “o” so when they write they often use the @ sign because it’s both combined but in German, there is no such option nor strategy, at least that I’ve come across so there’s a lot of gender stars.
SARAH: A classic, just little asterisk.
INA: I mean, do you have better options?
SARAH: No, I don’t, that’s the problem.
KAYLA: Let me think of a sick transition. What have we been talking about?
SARAH: Gender.
KAYLA: There’s not a really good transition here, is there?
INA: Is there not? You just made a really good pun without even realizing it.
KAYLA: Did I?
INA: Gender. Transition.
KAYLA: Oh, that was very good. Alright, anyway. There’s nothing good. Okay. There’s no good transitions. We’re just going to simply move to another topic. You earlier talked about how you were coming to terms with your gender and it was a difficult, long process and now you’re here. But do you still struggle with it at all? I just feel like it would be good for people who are still struggling with their gender to see someone who maybe looks like they have it more figured out to see if they still —
SARAH: Well now you’ve put them on the spot to say they do still struggle.
KAYLA: That’s fair.
INA: I mean I do.
KAYLA: I did make it say it so you had to say it, didn’t I? I apologize. I take it back
INA: I don’t struggle every day. There’s days where I feel just fine and then there’s days where I don’t feel just fine. And I think anyone can relate to that on very different levels that apply to themselves. Sometimes I struggle with my sexuality, sometimes I struggle with my gender identity, sometimes I struggle — I don’t know, whether I’m a person who wears Vans or a person who wears All Stars. Everyone has some part of their identity they might not feel 100% comfortable or sure of on a certain point in time so I think everyone can relate to this to some extent. There’s definitely days especially when my gender identity is questioned a lot repeatedly. It kind of tends to make me a bit nervous and also just unsure. I don’t know — you probably can relate, if someone’s like “are you really sure you’re asexual” or “are you sure it’s cause you haven’t had sex, Sarah?” Stuff like that. If someone keeps banging on or those situations happen in a very short timeframe. Yeah sometimes I do get, what’s the word —
KAYLA: Uncomfy.
INA: Uncertain.
KAYLA: I feel like I do get that not a lot but a decent amount of time with being demisexual. I feel like if I hear about other people talking about their experience being demi and they’re like, “oh yeah it takes me a really long time to form that attraction” and I’m like, oh it doesn’t take me that long am I not? I don’t know just like hearing other people’s experiences I feel like and like you said, having people challenge you can really bring up some shit.
SARAH: Yeah, and it’s important to remember that everyone has different experiences and everyone experiences their sexuality and their gender differently and that’s easy to forget, especially because society tells us there is a certain way to be a woman, there’s a certain way to be gay or straight and there are fewer rules with asexuality and non-binary identities but there are still rules that are put on to you. Just reminder everyone. Who cares?
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KAYLA: Who cares?
SARAH: Be whatever the fuck you want. You’re great.
KAYLA: I mean we do care. And also you should think about your safety and mental health and security and happiness. You should care and we do care. But also no one cares.
SARAH: But also, society tries to tell you it cares. And who the fuck cares what society thinks? Not me.
KAYLA: Not me.
INA: Also it’s okay if your identity changes. A lot of people feel like once they identify as a certain thing they need to identify that way forever so they kind of make it hard on themselves to decide, “oh what am I going to call myself cause I’m never going to be able to change this” — no you can, you most certainly can. Even if you feel like something one day and the next you don’t, it’s fine.
SARAH: You don’t have to be married to it. And also if you do get married to it, you can just get a divorce.
KAYLA: You can get a divorce.
SARAH: I was going to say.
KAYLA: That’s always an option.
SARAH: Excellent. Kayla, do we want to end on a positive note? That seems like a good idea.
KAYLA: Probably.
SARAH: Kayla obviously wrote this question. Not me because.
KAYLA: Why is that obvious?
SARAH: Well the question is, “what is your favorite thing about being non-binary?” Why would I be so positive in my life?
KAYLA: Oh okay. Yeah I mean that is fair.
SARAH: Do you have a favorite thing about being non-binary?
KAYLA: Something you think is real neat.
INA: Yeah basically you can make up your own rules. I think it’s really cool cause you can be whatever. I know we’ve talked about other people imposing expectations but non-binary is kind of something where you can make up your own rules cause there aren’t a lot of them and even if there are you can just chuck em out and make your own. Another thing I really like is the community. In general the queer community is very welcoming and open. It’s just a really neat, safe space that I really enjoy. I kind of really vibe with the people there.
SARAH: Good vibes only.
KAYLA: I’ve never met a non-binary person that wasn’t a good vibe. Which is obviously a generalization. I’m sure there is a non-binary person out there for sure. But every person I’ve come across has been a great vibe.
INA: There you go. We’re all nice people.KAYLA: You heard it here folks, all non-binary people are superior.
SARAH: There’s only nine of them?
KAYLA: There’s only nine of them. And spots are running out because I know several of those people so.
INA: Shit.
SARAH: Oh no.
KAYLA: Spots are limited.
SARAH: Oh dear.
INA: How do we apply? How do we apply?
KAYLA: You have to send in your resume and it better be good.
SARAH: To who?
KAYLA: To me. The cis woman. It’s me the cis woman who gets to decide if you’re non-binary or not. That was a joke. Everyone, stop, that was a joke and not even a good one. Don’t come for me.
SARAH: Incredible. Alright. Ina is there anything else you want to say about being non-binary? Any jokes you want to make? Do you want to roast me and Kayla?
KAYLA: Want to do a quick 5? Tight 5 standup routine? You can.
INA: I don’t think I need to roast you guys. I think you have the short stick of the deal anyway. I feel like I’m way better off on my side of the planet.
KAYLA: Yeah we are the ones suffering.
SARAH: We’re suffering so much.
INA: You’re not the only ones but yeah.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Yeah but we do be sufferin’ though.
SARAH: Lots of general suffering.
INA: I’m very happy that I’m not in the US right now.
SARAH: I wish I weren’t.
KAYLA: Oh man I’m so jealous. I hate it here.
SARAH: You got to go to a different country recently to visit family and I’m like, I can’t even leave my house.
(45:00)
KAYLA: America could never.
INA: Yeah I mean I was very careful. Did a COVID test before I went. I did a COVID test after I came back.
KAYLA: Imagine having that much access to COVID tests period.
INA: Yeah.
SARAH: Woops.
KAYLA: They won’t even let us into Canada.
SARAH: Alright. Kayla what’s our poll for this week?
KAYLA: Oh Jeebus.
SARAH: “Is Ina cool?” Yes or yes.
KAYLA: We can’t keep doing polls like that.
SARAH: I like polls like that.
INA: You can make a poll where you actually ask people if they learned something and you can put in a fill in option — or if they’ve ever met someone who’s non-binary. Would be interesting to see.
SARAH: That is interesting to see. Do you know non-binary people?
KAYLA: Do we want to specify IRL? Or is it okay if they know them online?
SARAH: I think it’s okay if they know them online. I think that’ll skew the result to more of yes. If it’s someone you’ve had personal conversations with not a person you know of, but a human— Kayla what are you doing?
KAYLA: I’m trying to write down the poll so I don’t forget. What do you want from me?
INA: I see this is very well-planned every week.
SARAH: Uh huh.
KAYLA: Hey now.
INA: I feel like every week — sorry —
KAYLA: You said you weren’t going to roast us. What the heck happen to that?
INA: I’ve listened to a few episodes here and there in my time.
SARAH: See this is what we cut out.
KAYLA: I feel sufficiently roasted
SARAH: And you know what, it’s fucking hot outside in California right now. Let’s check the temperature. It’s a 100 degrees Fahrenheit. Which is —
KAYLA: No it’s not.
SARAH: Yes it is.
KAYLA: It’s 61 Fahrenheit here.
SARAH: I’m trying to figure out what it is in Celsius and the app doesn’t work the same way it used to. Hey!
INA: I think it should be 37.
SARAH: That sounds right. It’s fucking hot.
INA: We have 14 degrees right here. So listen, almost a third of what you have.
SARAH: I would like to please give you some of my degrees. I’ll give them to you in Fahrenheit or Celsius.
INA: No thank you.
KAYLA: You’re so sweet Sarah.
SARAH: Cool. Our poll is whatever our poll ended up being. Kayla, what is your beef and your juice this week?
KAYLA: Oh, good lord. I’m not going to do beef this week because it’s simply not a good idea for me.
SARAH: I’m going to keep my beef brief. Brief beef.
KAYLA: Simply I have too much to choose from. My juice — I have a couple. One of them is my friend Erin who was on the podcast long ago talking about bisexuality. She and her girlfriend have a podcast called QVC for the Used and Hopeless and it is so —
SARAH: It’s a delight.
KAYLA: It’s a delight. I fell asleep to it last night actually because it makes me laugh out loud.
SARAH: So you fell asleep cause it was so funny that you fell asleep?
KAYLA: Well it was one that I had already listened to and I was like, since I’ve already listened to it — shut up, I don’t need to explain myself to you.
SARAH: We tweeted about it a little while back and Erin was like, “I think all of my listeners are from you.” So you know what Erin? We’re giving you more listeners.
KAYLA: And they should be! Okay but here’s the thing. I think it is a very similar vibe to our show. So if you like us — two women talking about things and going off topic — you would like those two women.
SARAH: Yeah. Except they’re gay.
KAYLA: So, even better.
SARAH: And we’re —
KAYLA: —not.
SARAH: — aspec.
KAYLA: Anyway so that’s my one juice. My other juice is that I’ve been waiting for many months to find out where I’m going to be moving. Dean, my boyfriend, step Dean, found out many months ago — we actually found out in the middle of a podcast one time when he got a job and we had to stop recording for a second. But they have a lot of locations so they couldn’t tell us where they were going to move us. We didn’t have any say in the matter which was very nerve-wracking. We waited literally months but we found out last week that we are moving to Baton Rouge, Louisiana, which I’m nervous about because it’s the south and I’ve never lived in the eastern timezone area.
SARAH: Eastern?
KAYLA: Eastern timezone area.
SARAH: What?
KAYLA: I’ve never lived outside of EST.
SARAH: You said I’ve never lived in eastern timezone.
KAYLA: I’ve never lived not in the eastern timezone.
(50:00)
SARAH: And I was like Kayla, you’re currently in the eastern timezone.
KAYLA: You know what I mean. I’ve never not lived somewhere that was cold, or up in this upper half of the country. So I’m nervous because it will be warm for Christmas which seems lame but I’m also very excited.
SARAH: Woo. My debate is the presidential debate last night. I won’t say any more on the matter.
KAYLA: Gotta be honest, couldn’t bring myself to watch it. Was too depressed.
SARAH: I wasn’t going to, and then I did and you know. You know.
KAYLA: Yup.
SARAH: My juice is that I decided to start learning French again because I need to do something with my life. And I’m not good at it. And you know what? That’s okay.
KAYLA: It is okay.
SARAH: Ina, what is your beef and your juice this week?
INA: I’m going to have to agree on my beef with you Sarah. Definitely 45 and the presidential debate.
SARAH: Did you watch it?
INA: Yes, and I regret it.
KAYLA: Why? You don’t even go here. Why would you do that to yourself?
INA: I study English literature and cultures.
KAYLA: Again why?
INA: When I look at your Cheeto I also second guess my choices.
KAYLA: Our Cheeto. Uh oh.
INA: Well if you had any Trump followers, they’ll be gone by now.
KAYLA: I cannot imagine there is a single one. I just can’t imagine that they’ve lasted this long.
INA: Well, all the better.
KAYLA: Bye everyone.
INA: And my juice — I was going to be very lame. I’m a student. I finished my last term paper and now I have a whole month of doing zero for university until classes start back up.
KAYLA: That’s not lame that’s so nice.
SARAH: Excellent.
KAYLA: I would love a month to do nothing. I would love that.
INA: I still have to work but just not uni stuff which is great.
KAYLA: That’s very nice.
SARAH: That is nice. Excelente. You can find our poll, tell us about your beef, your juice I was going to say your thoughts on our Cheeto but realy don’t.
KAYLA: I can’t.
SARAH: On our social media @soundsfakepod. We also have a Patreon — patreon.com/soundsfakepod and this is Sarah from the near future to tell you who our patrons are. Our $5 patrons are Jennifer Smart, Asritha Vinnakota, Austin Le, Austin Le, Perry Fiero, Dee, Quinn Pollock, Emily Collins, Bookmarvel, Changeling MX, Derrick and Carissa, Simona Sajmon, Jamie Jack, Jessica Shea, Ria Faustino, Daniel Walker, Livvy, Madeline Askew, Lily, James, Corinne, AliceIsInSpace, Skye Simpson, Brooke Siegel, Ashley W, Savannah Cozart, Harry Haston-Dougan, SOUP, Amanda Kyker, Vishakh, Jacob Weber, Rory, Amberle Istar, Rachel, Kate Costello, and John. Thank you for joining the party John. I feel like every time I go through the $5 patrons my breath support gets better because I can go further without needing to breathe. Incredible. Kayla’s not here to make any statements on that. So, sorry Kayla. Our $10 patrons are Tessa, Arcnes who would like to promote the Trevor Project, Benjamin Ybarra who would like to promote Tabletop Games, anonymous who would like to promote spooky Halloween, Sarah McCoy who would like to promote Podcast From Planet Weird, my Aunt Jeannie who would like to promote Christopher’s Haven, Cassandra who would like to promote their modeling Instagram @liddowred, Doug Rice who would like to promote "Native" by Kaitlin Curtice, Maggie Capalbo who would like to promote her dogs Leia, Minnie, and Max, H. Valdís, Purple Chickadee who would like to promote ichliebevogel.wordpress.com, Barefoot Backpacker who would like to promote being careful so you don’t break your toes when hiking — very important, Ashlynn Boedecker, who is @shlynnbo everywhere, The Steve who would like to promote Ecosia, a search engine for trees and Ari K. who would like to promote the YouTube channel MelinaPendulum by Princess Weekes. They do media analysis with a queer/POC lens which is lit. Thank you! Our $15 patrons are Nathaniel White - NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com, my mom Julie who would like to promote Free Mom Hugs, Sara Jones who is @eternalloli everywhere, Dia Chappell who would like to promote the Underrealm series by Garret Robinson, Andy A who would like to promote Being in unions and IWW, Martin Chiesel who would like to promote mental health, and Dragonfly who would like to promote hydrating, just generally. Ina, before we let you go, is there anything you’d like to promote? Your own social media, a concept of something? Doesn’t matter.
INA: I guess if you’re interested in seeing what non-binary looks like, there’s this really cool art project on Instagram. It’s an Instagram that is called non-binary Photo Gallery or something like that. If you put it into the search it should come up.
SARAH: We’ll link it.
KAYLA: Yes. We’ll link it.
INA: And other than that, my own social media is kind of boring because I don’t post, I just have a bunch of stories of political shit.
SARAH: You’re just vibing.
INA: I just spam people that follow me with political stuff.
SARAH: Same.
KAYLA: That’s what Sarah does.
SARAH: Classic. Wonderful. Thank you so much Ina. It was wonderful talking to you through a means that is not slow Snapchat snaps. Thanks for listening. Tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: Until then, take good care of your cows.