Ep 298: The Rise of Smutty Books
Content Notice: slavery, violence against black people, murder, discussions of sex (at Wimbledon), and mention of the phrase "quivering member."
[00:00:00]
SARAH: Hey, what's up? Hello. Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl. I'm Sarah, that's me
KAYLA: And a bi demisexual girl, that's me Kayla
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand
KAYLA: On today's episode, Smutty Books.
BOTH: Sounds Fake But Okay
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod
KAYLA: Hello
SARAH: Pew, pew, pew, pew, pew. It's pod time
KAYLA: It's dark out again.
SARAH: I'm sorry.
KAYLA: It's okay. I forgive you.
SARAH: Um, we have housekeeping, right?
KAYLA: Yes. Two things, I think first…
SARAH: Oh, two things?
KAYLA: Yeah, first, no episode next week. Sarah is drinking out of her straw in the most unappealing fashion.
SARAH: I'm like a giraffe. It's too far away
KAYLA: Bring the cup to you…
SARAH: But then it’s closer to the mic
KAYLA: If you have the capability, okay? Anyway, no new episode next week. I am going to be visiting with my family and first of all, don't want to take my mic home, it's heavy and annoying and second of all I just want to spend time with my family. So…
SARAH: Yeah, let Kayla spend time with her family
KAYLA: Take that. Um, so yeah, no new episode next week. Our other housekeeping is we want to do a little shout out to…
SARAH: Yeah, we do…
KAYLA: Okay. Are you going to just be my hype man?
SARAH: Yeah. Yeah
KAYLA: Okay, do a little shout out to some other aspec creators who are doing some exciting stuff in the space, who need your support. We'll be posting a little bit more about them on our Instagram sometime soon, I don't know exactly when but I wanted to do a shout out on the pod also.
SARAH: I'm on the edge of my seat
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: Were you ever going to say… What is… I'm on the edge of my seat
KAYLA: I'll never… we'll just sit here in silence for a little bit.
SARAH: No, I think we should shout them out.
KAYLA: Okay. So, we're shouting out the SHEAXTIME Collective. That's S-H-E-A-U-X-time Collective
SARAH: Like in a French way
KAYLA: Yeah, like in a French way. Yeah. Yeah, they are a non-profit organization that exists to provide a platform for artists and creators showcasing a collaborative work that inspires others creating a more inclusive world. Which is a really fancy way to say that they are making a lot of exciting creative projects that are highlighting underrepresented experiences and right now their work is revolving around asexuality. So, they do… they already have a short film that is their first piece of the ace cinematic universe that they're creating
SARAH: Whoa
KAYLA: You can find it on our website and their YouTube I'll give those links in a second, but it's like kind of scary and mysterious. It kind of freaked me out, but I'm also…
SARAH: Oh, my God
KAYLA: And then they are going to start crowdfunding for their next series called Agent of Lust here pretty soon. And it's… I think it's following like an agent in a parallel universe and I think it's going to be similar kind of like scary, mystery vibes as their opening act, their short film. Anyway, but it has ace and aro rep which is the most important thing here. So, yeah, they're doing really exciting work their founder and CEO Trifecta we have talked to them before, they are absolutely lovely.
SARAH: We've had conversations with them before they are a delight, yeah.
KAYLA: They are an absolute delight, amazing person, doing amazing work. So, if you want to learn more or give them your money dollars or follow them, you can go to their website sheauxtime.com or their Instagram which is I think the same, but now I want… yes, sheauxtime, just sheauxtime, on Instagram, and you can find all their links to their short film and their Discord and where to donate and all of those places.
SARAH: Oh, yeah, we love it, representing aspec.
KAYLA: Slay
SARAH: We're representing underrepresented groups in aspecs, we're representing black aspecs, other underrepresented groups within the aspec community, hu hu hu
KAYLA: Hu hu hu
SARAH: That was a noise of excitement
KAYLA: Yes, it's very exciting. And you should just check them out because there's a lot of great aspec people doing things all over the community that aren't just us and they're doing probably a lot more important work than we're doing here, so, probably better and more well produced things so go, go check them out. And I'll put all those links in the description of this as well.
SARAH: Hell, yeah. All right, Kayla. What are we talking about this week this week?
KAYLA: This week we're talking about books of the spicy smutty variety, which if you're not in the know, it's porn. I guess, basically
SARAH: But written down
KAYLA: But written down, smut and when someone says a book is spicy is… Yes, written text form porn
SARAH: Yes. And when Kayla brought this up as a thing that we could talk about she was saying that there has been like an influx of more like smutty books like making it to like booktok and like that sort of thing and I was like look for those of us who have been on AO3 this isn't new
KAYLA: Yeah, you already know. Well, and also, I think to me what's new because I think… I've seen a lot of articles or like people on booktok talking about like there's this resurgence of like or this like massive development in the like smutty space, which I don't think is necessarily true I think like yes on places like AO3 and Wattpad and like Tumblr like…
SARAH: AO3 is Archive of Our Own, which is by far the superior fanfiction website
KAYLA: Site
SARAH: Just saying
KAYLA: Yeah. Yeah. So, like in places like that or even like growing up, it's not like I never saw people reading like a smutty book, you know. I think…
SARAH: Yeah. They always have those bosoms on the front
KAYLA: Right. Well, that's something I wanted... I also want to talk about, but I think there has been a rise of that making it to like traditional publishing
SARAH: Yeah, and people actually talking about it
KAYLA: Yes, people are more willing to talk about it openly because when we were younger I remember it being a thing of like if you saw like it was only… always like a middle-aged or older lady like in the airport and she'd have this like smutty book with like a guy with like a wild amount of abs like Fabio vibes.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like the long hair, you know
SARAH: Bearllionaire
KAYLA: Bearllionaire, yes, the book we read in college. And it was always, I feel like kind of painted as this like shameful or like embarrassing thing
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And I think the covers also did not help with that because they looked…
SARAH: The covers didn't help because as soon as you look at the cover, you're like, “oh, well, I know exactly what they're reading,” you know
KAYLA: Right. And it's like… it's just like not…
SARAH: It led you to make assumptions
KAYLA: Right. And it's also like not a well photo… Usually not like a nice photograph either like usually it's just like not a high-quality photograph, also, which doesn’t help
SARAH: Yeah, it’s a poorly, poorly done Stock photo on like…
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: Graphics designed onto a just weird background
KAYLA: Yeah, but romance sales by the numbers like in books have been up and I have seen I think the CEO of like Barnes & Noble or whatever said that they are finally doing better again and they're opening more stores instead of closing down stores and they attribute a lot of that to like booktok which I think has some very strong roots to like specifically smutty and spicy writing
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But it's interesting because there are still people with like a lot of varying thoughts about whether this is like, okay and…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: You know
SARAH: Yeah. Do books have a rating system like TV, movies?
KAYLA: Okay, no, they don't, and this is actually something I've been talking to my friends a lot
SARAH: Because fanfiction does
KAYLA: Yes, it does, books do not, and here's the thing, and this is like, I feel like a whole… like could be a whole conversation of its own, is that there is a segment of books called Young Adult and to me, it seems like the logic of when a book gets put in the Young Adult category it's because the main character is a young adult aka like a teenager
SARAH: Yeah, and then new adult means they're like early 20s
KAYLA: Early 20s, yes, but that doesn't mean that the book is necessarily like appropriate for someone young adult age like I recently read a book called Blood Like Magic, a great book, also had… Like randomly out of left field had like named demi romantic character that I was like not expecting like in the work… in the book said demi romantic and I was like wild. It is a really great book by a black author with all black characters just like incredible representation and there was no sex or anything. So, it wasn't explicit in that way but there was just like really heavy themes like there was just like a lot of straight-up murder and violence and a lot of very detailed imagery of slavery and just like violence against black people which I'm not saying young adults shouldn't be handling that content, that's obviously very important content for teenagers to also like take in and learn, but like I think some content warnings would have been nice even like going in of like here is… here's what you're… like get your mind ready, here's what we're walking into.
SARAH: It's good to know in advance. Like I remember like in school we read A Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled Hosseini. It's the person who wrote the Kite Runner.
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KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: Yeah, Khaled Hosseini. And honestly, I don't remember a ton about like the specific details of that book but I do remember like before we started reading it, the class was made aware of the types of themes that were in it, which was helpful context to have going in
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And obviously not every book that you're going to read is going to be in the context of a class where your teacher can be like, hey…
KAYLA: Here's what we're getting into, yeah
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: What I think is helpful about the movie rating system, not that it's like perfect or anything
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But it will tell you like this movie is rated R and then it will give the reasons
SARAH: Will tell you why, yeah
KAYLA: Which I think is helpful because I think… Especially, because like smutty and spicy books are so on the mind right now people just take whether there is sex… like explicit sex in a book like that is their barometer for what age group it's appropriate for, when there could be a book with absolutely no sex that I'm like, “a child should not be reading this” or like should go into this with some sort of warning
SARAH: Yeah, or there would be books where like technically that could be considered smut but it's very, what I would call in the… in like fanfiction terms M-rated smut versus E-rated smut.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And like… So, that might still be appropriate for like the lower limit of the audience
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Might be a lower number than if it were E-rated smut like this… if that right makes sense
KAYLA: Right. And I also like… I don't pretend to know what is appropriate for what age level, I am not a parent, I'm not an educator, like I don't really want to pass judgment about like this is the age you can start reading about sex, but I know a lot of people do… Like especially parents have thoughts there and would like to know and so I do think a rating system would be helpful
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Or even for like sex-repulsed people of like, “okay, how do I know what I'm getting into when I pick up this book? I'm in the young adult section, I think I'm safe from explicit sex” and then you're like, “whoa”
SARAH: Yeah. I think that's one of the great things about the world of fanfiction specifically AO3 is that if you utilize the tags correctly and if you utilize the search functions on the website correctly you can just completely eliminate things that you don't want to see.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like you can just be like, “I don't want any E-rated fics, I don't want any fics that are tagged with I don't want any fics that are tagged with heterosexuality” like… And so I think… Like obviously it's not like every book is going to have a page at the beginning where it's like hashtag sapphic love, hashtag… I don't know. I'm just I'm trying to think of…
KAYLA: I have seen books in recent times though that do have content warnings like on the first page.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like, I can think of a couple of books I read recently where they were like, “hey, there is like relationship abuse in this book”
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: Or like writings like that and they're just like, “hey man, just so you know.” And they will tell you, which I appreciate, that's nice
SARAH: Yeah. Like not every book is going to do that if you don't have to
KAYLA: No, yeah
SARAH: I derailed us a little bit
KAYLA: You did, but no I…
SARAH: Back to the topic of railing…
KAYLA: Hahaha. But no, I do think that's relevant because I think a big discussion I have seen about like the rise of smut in the mainstream is people's worry for the children, which like the worry is always for the children, you know there's always a moral panic, and again in some ways I understand it because there isn't a content rating system for books the way that they are categorized is mainly based on who they can market it towards not who should be reading, you know it's like it's… The industry seems to be a bit confused. And then there's also people that like gatekeep… Like if you pass a certain age, you shouldn't read young adult books, I've seen a lot of discourse on that.
SARAH: Bullshit
KAYLA: It’s like people would say a lot of things. Yeah, I don’t know
SARAH: Technically, all of Rick Riordan's books are like middle grade. I don't care
KAYLA: Yeah, no, it doesn't…
SARAH: I'm going to read those fuckers, they're good
KAYLA: I don't care if you want to read a picture book, like, I don't care
SARAH: One fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish
KAYLA: Red fish, blue fish bitch
SARAH: Good night, moon
KAYLA: I love that bitch. Chitty chitty bang bang. No chicka, chicka boom boom
SARAH: Chicka chicka boom boom. Mm-hmm.
KAYLA: That's my shit. Rainbow fish? That's my bitch
SARAH: Blue fish
KAYLA: That bitch and her baddy friend. Anyway, so I think that's one part of it. Okay, so something else I… Like, I was talking about with Barnes and Noble is like doing well again or like people are reading more than ever whatever. I haven't seen the stats. It's just like colloquially seems like people are like getting back into reading and…
SARAH: Anecdotally
KAYLA: Anecdotally, because of things like Bookstagram or Booktok and specifically the rise in smut. Do you as an aspec person who - we often talk about being like frustrated by sex and romance being, no pun intended, thrust into things - Like is there any part of you that feels some type of way about this rise? I don't know that I have a clear answer, I'm just curious.
SARAH: I honestly know and I think that can be in large part attributed to my exposure to the world of fanfiction
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And like there's definitely a part of me that's like, “whatever gets people reading” like
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: You know, like.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And like for me, it doesn't bother me that much but I think there are definitely ways that we could be more thoughtful about… again with like a rating system or whatever that like sets it up so that like people who are sex-repulsed or maybe they have sexual trauma like they're not…
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Necessarily being assaulted by it all the time without, like without realizing it, without knowing it or expecting it
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But I mean look, if people are reading smut, okay. As long as it's like not harmful
KAYLA: See, that's my thing too and I think… That also gets into a thing but to me this could be… I don't even know if this is true, but the way it feels like is there is a lower barrier to entry to publishing a book than there is making like a TV show or a movie at this point, I don't know if that's actually true.
SARAH: I think the barrier to entry for making media is getting lower and lower by the day just because…
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: iPhone cameras are great and everyone has access to like free editing software but for them to really break through…
KAYLA: No, that's… Yes, to make like…
SARAH: And hit the zeitgeist
KAYLA: Yes, that is true. That is…
SARAH: Whereas with books. It's like there's so rarely a book that's like… breakthrough it impacts all of society and so like you don't have that bar, that you don't have that expectation that you feel like you have to meet
KAYLA: Yeah, well, I think there's also, like the way I'm thinking of it, is there is so much pressure now for high-budget films to like hit a certain Box-office number or else it’s a failure
SARAH: I mean yeah, because they spend hundreds of millions of dollars making these movies
KAYLA: Right. Whereas like for books it costs less to make the book. So, it's not as like…
SARAH: Yeah. The stakes aren't as high
KAYLA: Which I feel like gives more freedom…. Right. Not to say, again that it's easy, I know traditional publishing from everything I've heard is like a nightmare
SARAH: A mess
KAYLA: Which to me is why like I feel like I don't have as many feelings about like, “oh, people are like shoving romance anywhere” because I feel like with high-budget movies and TV it really feels like people are just doing it to like hit numbers and like make sure that their shit can sell but I have more trust in writers to do the right thing for the right reasons, I guess if that makes sense
SARAH: Yeah, when there are fewer… like when there's less red tape between the writer and getting it to the publish
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Right, which like… I feel the same way about the porn industry, right? Like we had a porn writer on the show, we all know that porn visual, video porn can be very exploitative and so if people are getting their porn in a written sense and it's being written largely by women…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I'm like, “yeah, that sounds great to me.” Now that is not to say it's all great
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Because, I've not read any of Miss Colleen Hoover's work, but from what I understand from her work and a lot of other like not even like big authors just like Kindle Unlimited like self-published smut
SARAH: But also, just like…
KAYLA: Like a lot of it…
SARAH: Fifty Shades of Grey is like not a good representation of BDSM like…
KAYLA: Yeah, like a lot of those books if you read it critically it's like, “okay, these relationships are not healthy” Like, we should not be idolizing the types of relationships that these people are having
SARAH: And it's not like they're not healthy and that's the point. It's like they're not healthy…
KAYLA: No, it’s like…
SARAH: And they're being put on a pedestal
KAYLA: Right. It's like what are we… Yeah, so all that to say, I'm like, “oh, that's great that these women are writing it” And all that to say it doesn't mean it's perfect and I have seen some people their like issue that they take with the rise of smutty books in the mainstream is that… Not necessarily that young people or people without critical thinking for lack of a better word are like getting to read about sex but that they are getting to read about these relationships that aren't great.
SARAH: They're getting informed in a way that's dangerous
[00:20:00]
KAYLA: Right. And if you are able to separate yourself and say like, “okay, I liked this book to read about the sex but like that relationship was fucked up,” that's fine, but not everyone reading these books is going to come away with that or like have that nuance, which is dangerous.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And especially for young people the same issue with visual porn is you're like, “oh, this is how sex works” like I have this expectation of this is how it is, and again, it is still fiction, like it's not always going to be like that
SARAH: Yeah, well and smut is also not going to be like really realistic either.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: We can make anything happen
KAYLA: True, it's a book, literally… I mean, even more than visual porn
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Where like physically you can't make certain things work like yeah…
SARAH: It's like when I was beta reading my…
KAYLA: Really kind of…
SARAH: Fic and I was like, “dude, where did this hand come from there?” This person has three hands
KAYLA: Which like maybe they do if this is like a sci-fi, but I don't know
SARAH: But it wasn’t
KAYLA: It wasn't, yeah
SARAH: But yeah, don't view media as truth. Just that's something to always consider
KAYLA: Amazing
SARAH: In every aspect of life. I also think the “mainstreamification” of smut in the absence of a rating system I think it also gets tricky because in the past as we mentioned like these covers of these books you could always tell, you could be like that's a smutty book, that is just a bosom or like a six-pack.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Or God forbid an eight-pack
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And so, like you would… if you have that context like you can know but like what was that book that you were talking about recently where like you saw someone where like they got it for their like teenage kid because they thought it looked cute and then the older sibling was like, “oh my God this is like very smutty maybe let's not give this to…”
KAYLA: What is it called?
SARAH: “My 13-year-old sibling”
KAYLA: I was just thinking about this book, it’s called like, Icebreaker
SARAH: Yeah, and it's like… it's…
KAYLA: Or something, but it's like a hockey romance?
SARAH: Right. And it's…
KAYLA: And it's very… like I've not read it, but from the excerpts I've seen like highly sexual
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And also, again another fucked up relationship, like relationship dynamic like not chill, not good
SARAH: Yeah, and the mainstreamificiation of that kind of stuff means that like even just like the cover art you don't always know.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: And so, like…
KAYLA: No, like thinking about… Like looking at my bookshelf right now
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Like red white and royal blue, I would consider quite a sexual book
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: The cover is like very cutesy, like…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: A little cartoon characters of like the main characters and it's not… And I wouldn't be surprised if that's labeled young adult because in the book, they are like 18
SARAH: I think it's new adult.
KAYLA: I should hope so. Interestingly also is that in the movie they aged the characters up
SARAH: They did
KAYLA: Which I thought was very interesting
SARAH: Oh, no. It is new adult because Casey McQuiston Red White and Royal Blue and One Last Stop are new adult and then their foray into young adult was their most recent book
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: Because I remember they were like, “I'm writing a young adult book, which I've never done before because my other books are new adult”
KAYLA: Yeah, but even like I think her name is Emily Henry is another like very popular like romance book writer, I think she wrote like Beach Read, those ones, I haven't read any of them, but I see them everywhere
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Again, though, like very unassuming like little cartoony
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like these… Romance books now have a very specific style which I guess can also help you if you're like in the know you can be like, “I bet this is a smutty book”
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But you're right like there's little cartoon characters on them, like you would be like, “oh here for my teenager” and like you might not know what you're giving the kid
SARAH: Right. Yeah, there's a certain type of like graphic stuff… But like honestly though like if I'm thinking about like the covers of Red White and Royal Blue… Royal Blue and One Last Stop by Casey McQuiston, like there are similarities between the cover style of those books and our book, our book just doesn't have people on it.
KAYLA: Yeah, I mean, I definitely think there's like a certain trend right now of what book covers look like. Like, I think it's… that just happens
SARAH: Yeah, it’s just like the trendy whatever, but yeah I think it's less obvious now, which is why I think it would be great to have a rating system
KAYLA: I think a rating system if done correctly, obviously like not trying to like… Yeah, I don't know put like “oh, it's queer content, it has to be like a certain…”
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: Obviously, I don't want a fucked-up stuff like that.
SARAH: I think the AO3 rating system is excellent.
KAYLA: Yeah, I've always found it helpful.
SARAH: I don't think that like the… You know, mainstream publishing industry has to embrace like all of the tagging
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: Standards on AO3 but…
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I do think that like… Because like knowing the difference between T and M and M and E is…
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: It's good to know.
KAYLA: Yeah, no it is
SARAH: And then like sometimes people will be like, “I've done this before” and stuff that I've written where it's like I have chosen to rate this M but not because of smut reasons for other reasons.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: And so, then you say that in the tags
KAYLA: There is other content.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: And it's like, “oh, okay. I see”
KAYLA: Because again, that's the thing, I think people boil down whether a book is a certain writing or whatever because of the spice, like something I've seen a lot lately and it's like mostly a meme is people I guess kind of making fun of people that only read smutty content.
SARAH: Mm-hmm.
KAYLA: They'll be like, oh, like the reading world is just like poisoned and like people only want to read stuff with smut and… So, they like bring a book…
SARAH: I hope they're reading good smut at least
KAYLA: I hope so, too, but I fear…
SARAH: I fear
KAYLA: From the… like there is a part of Booktok where like just excerpts of books like screenshots come up, especially like Kindle Unlimited like
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Self-published stuff and I fear it is not good
SARAH: It reminds of that scene in Ten Things I Hate About You at the beginning where the guidance counselor is writing the smut…
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: And she's like
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: Quivering member
KAYLA: I will say I think at least from the stuff I've read there's less of that these days
SARAH: That’s good
KAYLA: Like they're just going to call it a dick. Like we're not doing that anymore. We're like the pulsating… whatever, like we're not doing that anymore
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I think
SARAH: I think they call it a cock, often
KAYLA: A cock. Yes, I've seen that, often, it's a cock
SARAH: It's a cock.
KAYLA: It's a cock.
SARAH: I am just doing weird things, caulk? caulking? caulk gun?
KAYLA: Caulk? What was I saying? Oh, yeah, so people like… I saw one the other day that was like a picture book about Barack Obama and the person was like “Oh, should I pick this book up? Like what's the spice level of this book?”
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And they were like just fucking around but, so, then there's also this weird thing too of I feel like “traditional readers” or people that don't only read smut are like, “I am a real reader, I'm reading…”
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like, literary fiction and whatever and like readers are poisoned because they have to know if there's spice before they read a book and I'm like, man literacy rates are so bad in the US right now
SARAH: Yeah, they are so bad
KAYLA: Like if you want to read your porn like I think that's great
SARAH: Yeah, I hope you're reading good porn, like well-written porn
KAYLA: Yeah, but I also think like if your first foray into like reading for pleasure is porn and then you're like, “Oh, I really like reading,” like that's a great way to then get into reading more general content
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like I think, to me, it seems like that's what a lot of people on Booktok have done is they're like, “Oh, I see these books trending, I want to try it out” And then they're like, “oh I love this book” and then they like find other books of other genres that they like
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Which is great.
SARAH: They're like, “oh I…”
KAYLA: It gets people reading.
SARAH: “I loved getting swept up in this story, maybe let me read another story that maybe has a little bit less porn in it, but maybe still has porn in it”
KAYLA: Some porn. Yeah. And there's a lot of books that just have a little bit of porn.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And it's like, that's great, this is great. You could get a little bit, but then there's other great stuff.
SARAH: Yep
KAYLA: Excellent
SARAH: And if you want just the porn, there's a whole tag on AO3
KAYLA: There's a whole thing for that
SARAH: PWP, porn without plot
KAYLA: That is funny. I didn't know about that.
SARAH: Ever?
KAYLA: It doesn't sound familiar, like that acronym doesn't sound familiar to me
SARAH: I think people are afraid of it all the time.
KAYLA: I'm like out of the fandom game though, you know
SARAH: I guess. I knew about it many moons ago.
KAYLA: I don't know man, I'm stupid. I do think that's the other thing too, is the traditional publication of fanfiction as like Fifty Shades being… or like… what was the other one? Love Hypo… Love…
SARAH: There's… Yeah, I know what you're talking about
KAYLA: But that one is like Star Wars fanfiction and from what I understand is demi rep
SARAH: It Reylo
KAYLA: So, that is… Yes, it's Reylo. And apparently that… no, Ali Hazelwood I think is maybe the author? I haven't read it, I heard great things. I think it has demi rep
SARAH: The Love Hypothesis by Ali Hazelwood
KAYLA: But again… Love Hypothe… Hazelwood. I think that's part of it too, is like fanfiction I think more commonly had smut in it and then you're having fanfiction published traditionally but they're like removing the fan part of it just making it fiction and then it's like, okay, yeah, like this makes sense
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: That we got to where we are
SARAH: Right. That's fair. And also, like back in the day like traditional publishers may not have wanted to be seen as porn publishers, right? Like they don't…
KAYLA: Oh, 100%
SARAH: Like that's like a smear on their reputation and so the majority of the porn was either being done by like specific publishers, where that's what they do, where they do smut
[00:30:00]
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Or it's fanfiction and now since fanfiction and self-publishing has been able to reach so many broader audiences people are like, “oh, people like this, we can make money off of this, let's do this”
KAYLA: Yeah, well because I think previously it was just like, oh it is chick lit, like it's, whatever this is just kind of like trash garbage. And I think if you like look at the history of just like fiction novels it makes sense, right? Because men were the ones getting educated in universities, they were the ones that learned how to read first like… and they were reading their academic books, then fiction came along, and it was like the way people think about social media now, where like first people were like, “fiction is poisoning our brains” and then radio came along, and they were like, “ah radio” and then the TV was and they were like, “oh, a TV”, whatever. Like, people used to think books were garbage, they were like, “this is ruining everyone's brains. I hate fiction”
SARAH: Ruining everyone’s brain, yeah
KAYLA: But… like it was traditionally like... in the beginning for very rich educated white men and so that's where the industry was for a long time and I think slowly…
SARAH: And then it became a women's medium with like the Brontës and you know
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Jane Austen and blah blah blah blah, yeah
KAYLA: Yeah, but I think there is still this like… I don't know, like to me, I know so many more women and non-binary people just non-men that read than… I don't know any men that read
SARAH: I watched…
KAYLA: I don’t know men that read
SARAH: I watched a video recently where they were talking in part about how on average women in the United States in the West are more educated than men
KAYLA: Mm-hmm. They go to university more.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like the college rates are higher for women by like 2%
SARAH: Yeah, and so it's like I… You know, I feel like men still might view like reading novels is like, you know, it has to be like catch 20…
KAYLA: Catcher in the Rye
SARAH: Catch 20…
KAYLA: Catcher in the Rye.
SARAH: Catch 20…
KAYLA: Catcher in the Rye.
SARAH: Catch 2022.
KAYLA: That's a saying, it's Catch Her in The Ride.
SARAH: Kayla
KAYLA: I don't think… I'm sure Catch-22 is a book somewhere, but that not
SARAH: You look so dumb right now
KAYLA: No, I don't, it’s Catcher in the Rye, what am I thinking of?
SARAH: Catch-22 is a very famous novel by Joseph Heller
KAYLA: Okay, but the one I'm thinking of is also a book
SARAH: Correct, but it's not what I was saying
KAYLA: Okay, well it should have been, because that's a very man book, men love Catcher in the Rye
SARAH: So is 22
KAYLA: Well, I'm not a man, so, I don't know about that one. Okay. I don't know her
SARAH: Oh, my God, Kayla. Catch-22 is a World War II novel
KAYLA: Ew, men love World War II, men love World War II, and what is that about? Speak on it. Because what is it that? What is that? Ask a man his favorite war, he'll have an answer, I swear, men love war
SARAH: Oh my God. You’ll have me thinking about that for a long time.
KAYLA: I’m not wrong, not wrong
SARAH: I couldn't think of the number, my brain… because my brain was mixing up 1984 and…
KAYLA: Yeah, men also like that
SARAH: My brain was like Catch 24? And then I was like, that's not it.
KAYLA: No, maybe it's catch 23
SARAH: It is Catch-22, I Googled it.
KAYLA: Well, it sounds boring.
SARAH: I was supposed to read it in high school and I didn't, so, there’s that
KAYLA: Nice, good
SARAH: Anyway, but men…
KAYLA: Anyway…
SARAH: Men view the like it has to be that kind of novel for it to be like manly
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: And then anything that's like smutty or romancy or anything else is fair, girls, and so then it gets… I think it's more likely to get girls interested in reading because they can read the things that they want to read without feeling like ostracized for it whereas with men it's like if a straight man is reading fairy smut like he'll get judged
KAYLA: Yeah, fair. I have seen a trend though of women making their partners like read fairy smut series with them and the men get so fucking into it
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like they'll post screenshots of their text and it's like yeah man, this is…
SARAH: It's good
KAYLA: Engaging shit
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: It's good shit. And maybe you'll learn a thing or two about sex from the female perspective
SARAH: I was about to say maybe…
KAYLA: And who… And maybe we'll learn something about making people orgasm, you know
SARAH: You'll learn something along the way
KAYLA: Who knows?
SARAH: Who knows?
KAYLA: God forbid
SARAH: Yeah, it also kind of like goes against stereotype like, oh like men love sex, sex is a men's thing
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: But like the vast majority…
KAYLA: No, it does… it definitely does.
SARAH: Of smut writers and readers are women or afab people.
KAYLA: Yes. Yeah
SARAH: And writing from a female perspective, even if it's gay man sex there's still having the perspective of being written by a woman impacts it
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: And it doesn't have to be… It doesn't have to be in like a fetishizing way, it can be but it doesn't have to be.
KAYLA: Yeah, it definitely can be. I do think we need more sapphic rep though. Like, I think… I've seen like mainstream romance fiction fall into the same thing as like TV and movies do where like everyone loves a gay man couple
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like think, you know Red White and Royal Blue was incredibly successful, you know, a great book, a great movie, but like I have not seen the same thing for…
SARAH: Casey McQuiston's follow-up book One Last Stop.
KAYLA: Is it women?
SARAH: It's women. It took me forever to read not because it wasn't good but because I…
KAYLA: Just because of who you are
SARAH: And I believe they had already optioned that as soon as it came out just because of the success of Red White and Royal Blue.
KAYLA: Yeah, that makes sense
SARAH: Amazon or somebody was like we got to get on this, so hopefully that actually comes to fruition and they make it because, dude, it's about time-traveling lesbians, one of them is Chinese American
KAYLA: Slay
SARAH: The other one is like… It's not like a thing that she's like fat but like she's definitely not like your traditional like stick skinny like manic pixie dream girl
KAYLA: Yeah, I love that. And like you can even see on the cover, she looks like a normal fucking person, imagine that
SARAH: She looks like a mid-sized person like… Yeah
KAYLA: Imagine, I've added it to my list.
SARAH: I can't believe this is what gets me to get you to read that book not me talking about it when I actually read it
KAYLA: Oh, but I've only recently gotten back into reading.
SARAH: That's fair. That’s fair
KAYLA: Like at the time you read it I probably like wasn't in my reading era.
SARAH: Yeah, it's good.
KAYLA: It sounds good. The one book I did read… The like parent trap Bridgeton book was women being gay, so that was nice and the follow-up book is men being gay and it's like, oh, women first, imagine.
SARAH: The one thing I will say about One Last Stop is for anyone who is like not into like genre stuff like fantasy sci-fi you may feel a little turned off by like the fact that I said time travel, but it's very grounded, it's not like…
KAYLA: Like magical realism? Is that what they call it? What do they call it?
SARAH: Yeah. I’m not a big magical realism girlie. Sorry to say.
KAYLA: Well, I am, so we're going to have a problem
SARAH: I know
KAYLA: Podcast over
SARAH: But like it's very much grounded in reality. It's not like high fantasy. It's not like sci-fi, give it a shot.
KAYLA: Maybe I will
SARAH: And it is… I think it's a little smutty but I may be less… Maybe a smidge less than Red White and Royal Blue. I don't actually remember
KAYLA: I could also say Red White and Royal Blue was one of the first books I read like two years ago when I was getting back into reading and previously had not really read any books with sex so it might have seemed like a lot more sex to me than it actually was because at the time I was like, “whoa.” But now I might not because there’s such, but I was shocked at the time. I didn't know we could do that.
SARAH: I remember when I read it and I was talking about it on the pod and I was like, it's like M-rated and then you read it and you were like, “whoa.” And I was like, “I don't think it's whoa, it's M-rated.”
KAYLA: No, I do think it's M-rated. I think I did… I just don't think I went in with the expectation. I just didn't go in with the correct expectations…
SARAH: I told you it was M-rated
KAYLA: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know man, I just
SARAH: Okay. I didn't know we could do… I didn't know we could do blowjobs in a closet at the fucking sports fancy people sports
KAYLA: Polo. I didn't know we were having sex at Wimbledon, you know, like I didn't know that's what we were doing as a nation. No one told me that that's what we were doing now
SARAH: As a nation
KAYLA: I was mad that one wasn't in the movie. That was my favorite. I thought that was hilarious
SARAH: The Wimbledon one? That was good
KAYLA: Yeah, it was funny, he just like threw a condom over his shoulder and was like, let's go, I was like damn
SARAH: Time to fuck
KAYLA: Anyway
SARAH: Anyway
KAYLA: He’s trying to fuck
SARAH: They don’t get to see each other very often
KAYLA: I know and he was having… Listen, he was having difficult… problems with his family, he needed to fuck about it. I get it, it happens
SARAH: His family pissed him off at Wimbledon, of course he's going to be like, “I got to go fuck.”
KAYLA: He has to fuck about it. He’s mad at his brother. He has to fuck, who am I to say?
SARAH: Anyway, if that doesn't get you to read Red White and Royal Blue I don't know what will
KAYLA: It's a great book. It's a great book. If you can handle sexual content, an excellent book…
SARAH: M-rated sexual content
KAYLA: Great movie, I’m sure they did the movie very good. M-rated sexual content, I guess. I'd have to reread it. I don't know.
SARAH: I think I called it like on the low, I don't know what… it doesn't matter. I mean it does matter to some people…
KAYLA: And this is why we need ratings for books because then we would have an answer
[00:40:00]
SARAH: For the purposes of ending this podcast, it doesn't matter.
KAYLA: It really doesn’t
SARAH: Kayla, do you have anything else you want to talk about?
KAYLA: No, I just think it's a very interesting cultural moment because I think there's a lot of people with a lot of opinions from different… Like there's people that are upset from moral standpoints, there's people that are upset from like censorship standpoints, I could definitely understand… like, I don't think either of us are really upset from an aspec perspective, but I could understand why someone would be upset that like, oh, it's sex that's getting people to read more, like, oh, of course it is. Like, I…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I don't feel any type of way about that personally, but I could totally understand if someone did
SARAH: Could see it’s something, yeah
KAYLA: Yeah, like I get that. So, I just think… I don't know there's like a lot of interesting perspectives on it and it has just been interesting to see the like the rise of reading again come from something like this.
SARAH: Yeah, smut is good? An official statement from Sounds Fake But Okay podcast
KAYLA: Smut is solving the literacy problem in America? I mean, it really just goes to prove you what like powerful consumers women are, like if this plus like the Barbie movie have taught you nothing, it's like why are you not making content for like non-men. Why are we tailoring all of our content to men when it is so clear that everyone else is…
SARAH: Oppenheimer won the Oscars
KAYLA: I didn't see it and I don't want to see it. And I don't think I ever will. I don't want to see Oppenheimer
SARAH: I haven't seen it. I mean, I've heard that it’s very good
KAYLA: It’s about war, I'm telling you, but it's…. men love war, brother
SARAH: It about a man who builds a bomb and it’s three hours long
KAYLA: I'm not interested. There's…
SARAH: I don’t even…
KAYLA: You can’t tempt me with enough Florence Pugh to watch it.
SARAH: I don't even think…
KAYLA: I'll see her in something else.
SARAH: Cillian Murphy… I don't even think he cares, he doesn’t care about shit
KAYLA: No, I don't think he cares though, I think he…
SARAH: He just stares into space.
KAYLA: Yeah, I think he's over it.
SARAH: What a guy
KAYLA: Anyway…
SARAH: All right, well what's our poll for this week?
KAYLA: That was a great episode. Thoughts?
SARAH: Is smut good?
KAYLA: Is smut good? Thoughts on the rise of mainstream smutty spicy books?
SARAH: There also may be a question to ask about like have you ever been reading something and been surprised by smut? Like you didn't know going in that there was going to be smut?
KAYLA: Have you ever been jump-scared?
SARAH: Have you ever been jump-scared by smut?
KAYLA: By literary smut?
SARAH: Because I would be curious to know like how often that happens where like people are just caught unaware, caught with their pants down but like with their pants up actually
KAYLA: Yeah. There's definitely content warnings that need to go on this episode and I'm trying to think of what they are
SARAH: I don’t know
KAYLA: Because we definitely talked about some shit today
SARAH: Yeah, good luck.
KAYLA: Thank you.
SARAH: You're welcome
KAYLA: Actually, as you're editing if you could… if you can… if there's anything you think… let me know
SARAH: I’ll let you know. Okay, damn it
KAYLA: I'm serious.
SARAH: I know. I know you're serious. But now it means it's going to be both of our faults if we forget something
KAYLA: Good, that's…
SARAH: Gosh. Darn it.
KAYLA: I want that
SARAH: You were talking about slavery, jot that one down.
KAYLA: Yes. Yes. Thank you.
SARAH: Anyway, Kayla, what is your beef and your juice for this week?
KAYLA: My beef is that when the temperature changes rapidly and there is the air pressure shift and it makes my head feel like it's going to explode, for two days this week there was so much pressure in my head that my teeth felt tight
SARAH: Oh
KAYLA: I just… I like kept flossing to try to like…
SARAH: Loosen them?
KAYLA: Loosen them, no, I'm so serious, like it felt like…
SARAH: No, I believe you
KAYLA: My teeth were squished together because there was so much pressure like in my sinuses pressing down on my teeth. It was awful
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I'm sick of it.
SARAH: That's tough.
KAYLA: It sucked. My juice is… And I'm excited to see my family
SARAH: Slayful
KAYLA: My grandparents got a new cat
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: And he's very cuddly. So, I'm excited to do him a cuddle. I ate a candy apple last night. It was very great.
SARAH: She taunted me with it
KAYLA: The apple was like very…. Well, okay, because the apple was like, it was a green apple, because of course it was
SARAH: Everyone knows my thoughts about green apples, if you don't yeah, that’s fine
KAYLA: Yeah. I know Sarah… and it was like especially spicy like it was an especially like zingy green apple
SARAH: Like a very sour one?
KAYLA: Not even sour, like just spicy like not…
SARAH: Just crisp
KAYLA: Like it was tingly, it was tingly. I don't know. It like wasn't sour. It was just like spicy on my tongue
SARAH: Crisp, it was very crisp
KAYLA: Anyway, I love candy apples. I am a candy apple enthusiast
SARAH: I don't like green apples.
KAYLA: I know you don't
SARAH: But I need them…
KAYLA: You also wouldn't like… do you like caramel? You don't like…. you don't like Caramel
SARAH: I've never had Caramel
KAYLA: Okay, and you don't like… yes, you would not like anything about a candy apple
SARAH: No
KAYLA: None of it, like the one I had was chocolate caramel and apple like none of that is good for you
SARAH: No, not at all. Not at all
KAYLA: More for me. Oh, also, this should have been at the top but this episode is going to come out after international ace day I think or? International…
SARAH: We really…
KAYLA: We suck
SARAH: You're telling me last week I got ahead of trans day of visibility and Cesar Chavez day, but we didn't get ahead of…
KAYLA: Okay, if you're a patron you might be listening to this on international ace day
SARAH: Oh, my God
KAYLA: If you're listening on the day of regular release, it was yesterday
SARAH: It was yesterday
KAYLA: Happy international ace day everyone
SARAH: If you’re listening to it any other day, it's not, unless it's next year's or the year after
KAYLA: Yeah, dude we are so unplugged, which like I love but also, we're shit. I'm so sorry
SARAH: We're doing our best
KAYLA: Everyone, happy international ace day
SARAH: We're doing our best and sometimes our best is not that good and that's okay
KAYLA: That's okay.
SARAH: I tell myself that all the time
KAYLA: Good
SARAH: My juice which is also a little bit of beef is the song Quarter Life by TXT, Tomorrow by Together
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: It's about having a quarter-life crisis and it's beef because I feel like a little too seen by it and like I don't speak Korean so like I do have to read the translated lyrics like to like really understand the full breadth of what's being said but I… Like a little too seen by it and it's a unit song which means not all of the members are in it, and it's the three youngest members that are in this song and so like if they're already having a quarter-life crisis, they're all younger than me, every member of this group is younger than me, all of the three youngest members were born in the 2000s
KAYLA: Ew
SARAH: So, if they're already having a quarter-life crisis, what does that make me? You know
KAYLA: I don’t know, old
SARAH: The youngest member… Okay. He was born in 2002. So, like they're not that young but like still that's the 2000s
KAYLA: It's scary, people born in the 2000s are old now.
SARAH: Is he 21 years old and old enough to drink in the United States of America? Yes, but still…
KAYLA: He's a baby.
SARAH: He's a baby. Anyway, that… my real beef is multiple places, grocers if you will, charging $10 for a 12 pack of pop. Unhinged
KAYLA: Fucked up.
SARAH: I refuse to pay that unless it's out of stock everywhere else. And that's why I don't have Cherry Coke right now
KAYLA: Unless
SARAH: Because I won't pay $10 for a 12-pack when I could pay 8.50 somewhere else, that’s all
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: 8.50 is already daylight robbery, you're telling me you want me to pay $10 and then also five cents extra for every can that I'm not going to get back because California makes it so hard to do bottle return
KAYLA: Bitches
SARAH: And by so hard I mean just not as easy as it is in Michigan. I recycle all of my cans. I just don't get my five cents for them, but in Michigan…
KAYLA: There is a…
SARAH: All of the major grocery stores, all of the big ones, like the large locations I mean, like not if it's like a weird janky little one but like they have bottle return right at the front and it's ten cents for every bottle or can and then you get your little receipt and then you can go grocery shopping and then you can pay for like half your groceries with your cans, people do fundraisers where they get cans from people.
KAYLA: That's true. We used to do that. We have a grocery store very close to us that has a can return so we could do it but it's always really busy because that's where all the unhoused people go with their cans.
SARAH: Oh, really?
KAYLA: Yeah, so, often we just put our bags of cans out separate from the rest of our trash as an offering
SARAH: As an offering?
KAYLA: As in I say, “you go return them”
SARAH: And they will, and they will appreciate that
KAYLA: And they will, and we do, because it's like you're going to take them out of my trash anyway, might as well leave them out for you, I don't need the money as much as you, anyway
SARAH: There's supposedly a recycling center by me but like I don't understand where it is and…
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: I don't know if they even do like can return which like I don't even know, I don't even know
KAYLA: Yeah, I really could, if I really wanted to I could but I don't
SARAH: I mean, it's still getting recycled, it's just… I'm not…
KAYLA: I mean, yeah…
SARAH: I'm not going for it
KAYLA: I'm just not getting money from it
[00:50:00]
SARAH: And for all of you listeners who are in places like Germany and South Korea that have very in-depth intense recycling programs in your country, good for you. This is America
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: The city of Los Angeles recently told us that actually we can't recycle as many types of recycling as before.
KAYLA: Oh, that's nice
SARAH: Which like I guess is probably good because it means that like if you have the wrong kind in there like it won't necessarily… like it's not going to contaminate a whole… what… I don't know. It's still… it's fucked up
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Okay. Anyway, you can tell us about your beef, your juice, your country's recycling laws… In Germany do not bring your bottles for fund on Sunday, you cannot, you cannot…
KAYLA: I won't
SARAH: I mean, you physically can but everyone will stare at you so angrily, just so you know
KAYLA: That's all
SARAH: Yes. Sounds Fake... What? @soundsfakepod. We also have a patreon page, patreon.com/soundsfakepod. We have a new $2.00 patron, it's Adam. Thank you, Adam
KAYLA: Adam
SARAH: Thank you, Adam. Our $5 patrons who we are pointing this week are Lily, Mary S., Mel McMeans, Melissa and Meredith. Our $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are Maff who would like to promote the don't should sweatshirt, Martin Chiesl who'd like to promote his podcast Everyone’s Special and No One Is, Parker who would like to promote being a silly little guy and Purple Hayes who would like to promote their friends podcast, The Host Club. Our other $10 patrons are the Barefoot Backpacker, SongOStorm, Val, Alyson, Ani, Arcnes, Benjamin Ybarra, Celina Dobson, David Harris, Derick & Carissa, Elle Bitter, my Aunt Jeannie, and Kayla’s dad. Our $15 patrons are Ace who would like to promote the writer Crystal Scherer, writers, nice. Andrew Hillum, who would like to promote The Invisible Spectrum Podcast, Dia Chappell, who would like to promote Twitch.tv/MelodyDia, Hector Murillo who would like to promote friends that are supportive, constructive, and help you grow as a better person, including in your reading, you know, we'll get there. Nathaniel White who would like to promote NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com, Kayla’s Aunt Nina who would like to promote katemaggartart.com and Schnell who would like to promote accepting that everyone is different that's awesome. Our $20 patrons are Dragonfly and my mom and they would like to promote, there's a guy on Instagram and also TikTok, I don't know what his name is, but he is like…
KAYLA: A terrible promotion
SARAH: He's like an adult and he like never properly learned how to read because he had a learning disability when he was young and he was in like special ed classes and they just kind of like pushed him to the side and so he like never… so, he has like the reading level of like a… I think like a fourth grader and he's an adult man and he's on a journey to like reteach himself how to read and it's very good and cool and he… Also, because he's a black man and so he's en
couraging other black men and just people in general who may not have the reading abilities that they're “supposed to” to reengage with reading and libraries are good. Thanks for listening, tune in next Sunday for… nope, tune in not next Sunday because we'll be gone, but the following Sunday, for more of us in your ears
KAYLA: And until then, read to your cows
SARAH: So, true
[END OF TRANSCRIPT]