Ep 207: Playing Mind Games While Dating
(00:00)
KAYLA: Sarah.
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: It is a well-known fact on this podcast and in the world that aspec people cannot owe anyone money.
SARAH: I’m so glad to hear you finally admit that openly and honestly in this space.
KAYLA: I know it’s taken me a really long time to catch on. Um, I was really hesitant at first. However, something that gets really dicey when you’re asexual and you cannot legally owe money, is when you have to pay a lot of money for things like college.
SARAH: Yeah that’ll really do ya.
KAYLA: Yeah, because they won’t really let you in, without paying the money you owe. But legally it's like…
SARAH: Yeah, but can you owe money?
KAYLA: You can be like this podcast told me I can’t and that’s a reputable source. So like what are you supposed to do about it, you know?
SARAH: Right. Yeah, I’m wondering, I’m on the edge of my seat.
KAYLA: Well I’m so glad that you’re really excited to hear this because I have a- I have solved it. I have a solution.
SARAH: M’kay. Okay, okay.
KAYLA: For this ace week and for this month we are giving away a $500 college scholarship in partnership with Niche, so basically we’ve solved some of your problems with your owing money situation.
SARAH: We’ve essentially solved $500 worth of problems.
KAYLA: Yeah. Which is a fun time and a big deal.
SARAH: Hell Yeah.
KAYLA: We’re doing a $500 college scholarship for ace week, but it runs until November 30th and it's for high school and college students who need money and don’t wanna owe money.
SARAH: What do the kids need to do?!
KAYLA: All— Listen here — all you need to do is go to niche.college/aceweek and you just fill out a little form and then you’ve applied you don’t even have to do an essay.
SARAH: Wow! We love not having to do essays!
KAYLA: I know! So: niche.college/aceweek and it's really quick and then you can just go throughout the rest of your ace week and the rest of your month no problem and you can maybe win some money.
SARAH: Yeah we love winning some money! Niche.college/aceweek!
(transition music cut from the intro song)
SARAH: Hey what’s up hello. Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl (I’m Sarah. That’s me.)
KAYLA: … and a demisexual girl (that’s me, Kayla)
SARAH: talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else that we just don’t understand.
KAYLA: On today’s episode: Mind games while dating.
BOTH: Sounds fake, but okay.
(Intro song)
SARAH: Welcome back to the Pod!
KAYLA: M’ice?
SARAH: Of M’ice and M’en-
KAYLA: Mhm.
SARAH: Ends really horribly actually.
KAYLA: I don’t think I’ve ever read it actually.
SARAH: There is some- there is some dying, some killing. It’s pretty rough.
KAYLA: What is the one where they all live on the island?
SARAH: That one is umm...
KAYLA: Something with flies.
SARAH: Lord of the Flies?
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: I don’t know why you said the island, I and I thought We Have Always Lived in the Castle.
KAYLA: I haven’t read that one either.
SARAH: Anyway we’re just talking about books American high schoolers read.
KAYLA: Welcome to our new book podcast.
SARAH: (laughs) Welcome to our bookcast where we only talk about books that American high schoolers read and which ones we did and did not read.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: Wow, Kayla, what are we talking about this week? I actually- Wait, no. Do we have housekeeping?
KAYLA: Mm.. Don’t think so. Our scholarship is gonna be up for like, one more week basically?
SARAH: Mhm Basically.
KAYLA: Oh also are we taking next week off?
SARAH: Oh! Fuck if I know… Oh we are taking next week off!
KAYLA: (laughs)
SARAH: The schedule just says “NO!” Exclamation point.
KAYLA: Well there you have it we will not be here next week because it’s Thonksgiving and we are traveling.
SARAH: Thonksgiving, and I can not emphasize enough how much I need a fucking break.
KAYLA: (laughs)
SARAH: Not from this podcast specifically.
KAYLA: Just in general?
SARAH: Just- but in general I am kind of rolling down a hill really really fast.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And I kind of want to not break my head and die.
KAYLA: That’s fair.
SARAH: Kayla, I’m going to return to my previous question: What are we talking about this week because I don’t know-
KAYLA: I did tell you.
SARAH: -and I’ve already forgotten from when you said it at the beginning.
KAYLA: I texted you.
(5:00)
SARAH: Yeah Kayla texted me and told me that’s what we’re going to do, and I was like “cool” but I was busy rolling down a hill and um so I was just like “okay” and then I got home, and then I did not check again. Then we started recording and I was like don’t tell me I don’t even wanna know, and then she said it at the beginning and I already forgot it.
KAYLA: Please hold. I have to yell at my cat.
SARAH: I don’t know where we left off so hey.
KAYLA: Uh, in this episode you asked me “what are we talking about?” We’re talking about playing the game. Playing the dating game, playing the mind game of dating, and all the weird shit people do whilst dating.
SARAH: Mhm. (quietly and like she’s literally withering away live on air) Okay take a deep breath Sarah and stop thinking about your anger at the USPS… This isn’t the time. It’s not the time, Sarah. Um, I have to close this. Please, please just… okay. Thank you. It said that it was- it couldn’t be delivered tomorrow. They unsuccessfully delivered it tomorrow, so...
KAYLA: Oh!
SARAH: Um anyway...
KAYLA: That’s very perceptive of them.
SARAH: Anyway. I’ll leave that one in! Sorry, I wasn’t listening to you, I was thinking about my anger.
KAYLA: Okay are you ready?
SARAH: M’y anger (laughs).
KAYLA: Are you ready?
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: We’re talking this week about playing the game of dating.
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: Playing the mind games, doing the games of dating.
SARAH: Let’s play a love game, if you want love, if you want fame. As they say.
KAYLA: Thank you.
SARAH: That’s what Stefani says at least.
KAYLA: I thought of this one, this idea for an episode because I have people in my life who are actively dating.
SARAH: Tough to be them.
KAYLA: And this is what I’m saying, because I hear about these things that they do while they’re trying to date and I’m like “god I’m glad that’s not me”.
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: Because I have not been dating for...
SARAH: A while.
KAYLA: 3 years now?
SARAH: Technically you’re still dating, but you’re dating Dean.
KAYLA: Yes, not like- yes, you know what I mean.
SARAH: I know what you mean.
KAYLA: And even when I was dating, I don’t know that I was the type of person to do a lot of this stuff. Uh so this is very wild to me, but I recently had a friend- I’m just gonna talk about him, hope he doesn’t care-
SARAH: (laughs)
KAYLA: -I’m not saying anything, he’ll be fine. But he was talking about trying to see this girl and they had been trying for a long time to find a time they could like see each other because they’re both super busy and she had blown him off a couple times and she was finally like “okay I’m not super busy anymore, when do you wanna hang out?” and he was- to be fair he’s a very busy person, has a lot going on at the moment but specifically was like “I don’t wanna just say to her ‘oh I’m free whenever’ because then I’ll sound like a boring person who has no life, so I’m gonna tell her-”
SARAH: You’re also- you sound like ‘easy’ in like a dating way. (laughs)
KAYLA: Yes. So he was like “I’m gonna give her these very specific dates, like I can only do this weekend, or this day blah blah blah” which to be fair were the only dates he could do but we’re talking to him about it and he was being like, “well”
SARAH: Stingy.
KAYLA: “I don’t wanna come off this way” and he was being super specific about his wording and that kind of thing, and that just made me think about this whole mindset when it comes to dating because-
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: -it’s just so much, and it goes from- I think it goes from very small things to behaviors I think are very manipulative and borderline like emotionally abusive, so it's a very wide- it gets wild out there folks!
SARAH: Yeah, and I think for a long time as, I was-
(chair scooting back sound)
SARAH: (Sounding further away) Sorry the boy is screaming.
KAYLA: The boy! Are you and the boy on good terms now?
SARAH: My eye was only swollen for like a day.
KAYLA: Sarah’s eye- the cat- Sarah’s roommate that is a cat-
SARAH: (laughs) yeah.
KAYLA: Did basically punch her in the eye.
SARAH: Oh it wasn’t a punch, it was a claws out swipe.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And, teeth out bite at the same time. Like I was bleeding from my face.
KAYLA: Rough times with Bogey.
SARAH: Um if he had been half a centimeter closer to my eye, he might have fucking blinded me and that is not an exaggeration.
(10:00)
KAYLA: No like I see in the pictures, there is like a hole in Sarah’s like under eye.
SARAH: (laughs) He’s-
KAYLA: Very close to the ball.
SARAH: He would have at least sliced my contact, at the very least.
KAYLA: Which is shame because contacts are expensive.
SARAH: Well I have daily contacts so it doesn’t fucking matter.
KAYLA: Anyway!
SARAH: Uh what was I saying?
KAYLA: I don’t know.
SARAH: Oh! For the first time since becoming a real adult, I’ve found myself around people who are actively dating recently and it's been weird because the last time I had that experience, I was in college, and dating as a real adult is different, but also the same, but also very different.
KAYLA: It seems harder.
SARAH: It seems harder and it seems horrible and every time someone around me talks about dating, I’m just like “wowww fuck, fuck that shit”.
KAYLA: It’s a lot. Because here’s the thing- I guess to back up, if someone doesn't have the concept of what we’re talking about of playing the game of dating-
SARAH: I’m one of those people because I think one of the reasons I could never remember the topic of this podcast is because I still don’t understand what it is.
KAYLA: Okay so… I can- I’ll run you through some of the common ones and I think you’ll understand from them. So your classic is playing hard to get.
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: Of like, I do like this person, but I’m purposefully not going to talk to them very often or seem uninterested to make them want me more. So that’s like your classic, to give you a baseline.
SARAH: That can backfire (laughs)
KAYLA: Yes. So to me- then there’s a bunch of other ones, we’ll go back - Oh another one, like I mentioned I feel like there’s a whole spectrum of like very mild stuff to very fucked up stuff, but-
SARAH: Everything is a spectrum, dear listener.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: Including sexuality, gender, romantic orientation, orientation of any other sort and also game playing.
KAYLA: Yes. So a minor thing that I feel like almost everyone does, even outside of dating concepts, is delaying your responses to texts to make it seem like you’re not desperate, like I’m gonna wait so many minutes so I don’t text this person back right away and seem weird.
SARAH: So that’s something that I would never be able to achieve because I either answer you immediately or I forget.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: So I would not be able to play that game.
KAYLA: Yes, but that’s your very simple stuff. Then we go all the way to the point of like making people jealous on purpose, love bombing is something that I think can get borderline very manipulative of like-
SARAH: What? What does that mean?
KAYLA: So it’s like at the beginning of a new relationship, you are showering this person with a ton of affection and a ton of love and stuff so they are like immediately at the beginning are like “Oh my god this person is super into me” and then, but the person never had interest in being committed to you, so they might do it to like-
SARAH: Why would you do that? To be toxic?
KAYLA: Well, I mean I think… I don’t know. I guess-
SARAH: I get if you’re a very touchy person so I can understand how that might happen accidentally where someone interprets certain behaviors as more than what they are because you’re naturally a very tactile person, but intentionally being...? I don’t get that.
KAYLA: Well I can see it being someone who has no interest in a committed relationship and just kind of moves from infatuation to infatuation and the signals they’re giving by being super lovey and whatever, the other person in this situation is gonna be like “obviously this person is super into me, they want to commit” when this person just does it to everyone.
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: It could be a thing of like, “I just wanna get in this person’s pants and in order to do so I have to-”
SARAH: “this is what I have to do”
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: But why don’t you just find someone else who won’t commit and THEN commit to each other like in a romcom-y way (laughs) just for fun.
KAYLA: There’s love bombing for you.
SARAH: (singing) Let’s play a love bomb, it’s so toxic~
KAYLA: I think at its worst love bombing can be in the cycle of abusive relationships.
SARAH: Mhm.
(15:00)
KAYLA: Like emotionally it often goes from like, it's a very cyclical thing, so you get in a fight or you do something terrible and then you turn around and you shower the person with gifts or you love bomb them. Then the person is like “oh this relationship isn’t so bad, obviously they love me very much”
SARAH: “They still love me”
KAYLA: -and then it goes back around the circle, so at its worst-
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: - that's just kind of what it is.
SARAH: At its best, it's just confusing.
KAYLA: Yes, and then you have things like gaslighting, breadcrumbing-
SARAH: AAAAAH!
KAYLA: Oh?
SARAH: Sorry. (mysterious uncertain noise).
KAYLA: What is happening?
SARAH: (laughs) I’m sorry, you’re not going to like this, just keep talking.
KAYLA: I bet not. What’s happening- no but now I need to know?
SARAH: Emily, not my sister, my work friend who I don’t work with anymore, sent me a text that just says “Jimin on La Brea!”
KAYLA: Oh my god.
SARAH: And then it's a picture that Hobi posted on Weverse and it’s of Jimin and it's on La Brea, today (laughs).
KAYLA: I’m so over you.
SARAH: So I yelled into my mic (laughs).
KAYLA: But its too late, it doesn’t matter if he was on La Brea.
SARAH: Yeah but I know where La Brea is.
KAYLA: Yeah but it's too late, he’s not there anymore.
SARAH: Last night when I was at my work drinks I was like “well why haven’t I seen BTS at this- at my work drinks at a gay bar in WeHo on a Wednesday”
KAYLA: Yeah definitely.
SARAH: What if Yoongi walks into my place of work and asks for a piece of gum?
KAYLA: Uh huh.
SARAH: Bogey stop beating my plant! Okay. I would like to take this time to apologize to our listeners-
KAYLA: And me?!
SARAH: No just to our listeners because this is what happens when we podcast- this has happened several weeks in a row now - this is what happens when we podcast at fuckin’ 8:30pm on a Thursday. Is my- I- there is no controlling my brain. What the fuck were we talking about? I’m so sorry. (laughs)
KAYLA: I’m so over you.
SARAH: So am I Kayla, so am I!
KAYLA: Good. We were talking about Love bombing and then I was listing some other games that people play. Lets see, we have breadcrumbing, is on the internet.
SARAH: Oh leaving little bread crumbs and then killing them in a log cabin-?
KAYLA: I mean it kind of seems that way. It's like you’re sending messages to people, but you never make plans, like “oh we’ll definitely hang out” and you cancel the plans so you’re just kind of stringing the person along.
SARAH: Hm. What the fuck do you get out of that? The upper hand? A feeling of supremacy?
KAYLA: Well because then you have someone on the back burner, so like if you’re trying- I- I don’t know, this is my assumption. If you’re trying to go after a main person but you want another person fall back on, then you want to keep them- tag them along- keep them interested so the main person you’re interested in rejects you, you still have something to fall back on.
SARAH: I hate that shit.
KAYLA: Let’s see. Oh this article from- I think its from some relationship expert person says “reasons for playing mind game-”
SARAH: What? What? Here’s a question, sorry. Quick question before you get into that. What an relationship expert makes?
KAYLA: I don’t know.
SARAH: I don’t know either. Does Yoda know?
KAYLA: Bree Schmidt is a relationship educator and writer. I don’t know.
SARAH: Bree Schmidt is a type of cheese.
KAYLA: No it’s a wom- well I guess I don’t know the gender.
SARAH: Tell me what the cheese said. Bree I’m sure you’re great.
KAYLA: Bree is a certified life coach and cognitive behavioral therapy practitioner, so I guess Bree seems licensed.
SARAH: Hm! Bree seems like a legit cheese.
KAYLA: And probably does couples counseling or something, so. Honestly-
SARAH: She probably listens to our podcast.
KAYLA: She has a podcast.
SARAH: Is it ours? Is she one of us? Is she inhabiting- is she h- is she inhabiting one of our bodies? Is she animating one of us?
KAYLA: Imagine. It’s called relationship reminders. What if it’s terrible and I’m just shouting out like a homophobic… anyway.
SARAH: Then what I said about the cheese stands.
KAYLA: Anyway: Reasons for playing mind games according to Bree Schmidt, relationship expert. One reason is fear of rejection, “if someone is afraid of being rejected they may use mind games to keep themselves protected and in control”
(20:00)
SARAH: So they can reject them first, yeah.
KAYLA: See this I think is a big thing- yes. And this I think is a big thing is the control of it, because in dating like you want to be the one in control. Like you want to be the one if there is a rejection you want to be the one who is doing it, and if feelings are hurt, you never want it to be your feelings that are hurt.
SARAH: Always the dumper, never the dumpee.
KAYLA: Yes. Well because that is the hard thing about dating, I think, it is a very vulnerable thing and also very vague and confusing and I think that's probably a big reason why people do this kind of stuff because it puts some kind of structure in place and it gives you-
SARAH: It makes it feel like they’re in control.
KAYLA: “If they are rejected they can use the mind games as an emotional buffer”
SARAH: Now if I were- if I dated I would always be the dumpee and never the dumper.
KAYLA: Because you’re nonconfrontational?
SARAH: But that’s just a me problem.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: Or I would be like “I think I wanna break up with this person” and then I would get so passive aggressive that they would wanna break up with me.
KAYLA: Oh my god. This is why I said many times in the past that you would be so bad at dating. And I’m so glad you don’t because it would be so messy.
SARAH: I would be the best, most healthy dater there ever was.
KAYLA: You would have so many enemies.
SARAH: The BEST communication. I don’t have enemies, that’s part of the problem.
KAYLA: The hard part about it too, is that I would have to take your side, like as your friend and be like “No you were totally right for fucking them over”
SARAH: (laughs)
KAYLA: but internally I would be like “she’s a bitch and terrible at dating” because I’m your friend and I would have to stand by you.
SARAH: I would appreciate if you were honest.
KAYLA: Yeah but you know what I mean.
SARAH: I mean don’t tell me that I’m a bitch and that I’m bad at dating- I mean this is all hypothetical.
KAYLA: I’ve already told you that you WOULD be bad at dating.
SARAH: So we’re already halfway there. I’m just saying-
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: If I had just passive-aggressived my way into someone breaking up with me, I don’t think I would feel very good about what I’d done. (laughs) I don’t know that I would need you to say I’m a bitch and bad at dating.
KAYLA: Anyway. Here’s a big reason why I think people do these things.
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: It makes you look and feel more powerful and so then you look more valuable to others. So this is what I was saying about my friend being like “I want to appear busy because then I look more valuable as a person because I am scarce” those are the types of games I’m mostly talking about-
SARAH: Ohh.
KAYLA: -this crazy stuff with like love bombing- Yeah?
SARAH: Oh I was just- It made sense when you said they were making themself scarce, but I was like “they’re making it seem like they work a lot and make a lot of money” (laughs)
KAYLA: I mean-
SARAH: I mean that’s where my brain went. Capitalism.
KAYLA: Well I think that’s also thing, like “oh I’m so busy with work, and my weekends are full because I’m doing stuff with friends” so they’re like “Oh wow they have this great career, and they have a ton of friends, oo how interesting”
SARAH: They’re so desirable. (Mrs. Bennet from Pride and Prejudice impression??) He makes ten thousand a year~!
KAYLA: Oh my god (laughs) House- what was it? What was it called?
SARAH: (impression con’t) Pemberly~?
KAYLA: Yeah but was it called, was it like he makes, he has ten thousand a year-? There was a way they said it.
SARAH: Uh he- something he (british accent) somethings ten thousand times a year (shifts bad Scots? accent) I just switched to a different focking accent, the fock am I doin?
KAYLA: Okay that’s enough.
SARAH: (Scots? Accent continues) Sorry to anyone who’s listening who’s like “Sarah this is the worst accent I’ve ever heard and it’s so offensive” (shifts into an equally bad Irish accent?)I’m sorry there’s nothing I can do about it and I just switch again, so moving on.
KAYLA: This has been a very painful episode so far. (laughs)
SARAH: (no more accents) I’m sorry. This is why I need a break! (laughs)
KAYLA: Listen. We’re doing our best.
SARAH: Aaaa I’m gonna cry into my soup!
KAYLA: Into your soup?
SARAH: Yeah, I don’t even like soup that much so extra water for the soup.
KAYLA: Anyway, okay. To me when I think about playing games while dating, I often don’t think about the super manipulative things like love bombing or gaslighting someone or something like that.
SARAH: Cause that’s just manipulation.
KAYLA: Cause that’s just really fucked up.
SARAH: Yeah.
(25:00)
KAYLA: But I think the things everyone does while they date, because even I — I don’t think I got very far into this while I was dating but — delaying text messages or being very specific with the wording I was using, or overanalyzing texts. I think a lot of people do that while dating. I’ve definitely helped people craft text messages before.
SARAH: Screenshot- screenshotting texts and sending them to your friends and being like “help me”.
KAYLA: Yeah, yes absolutely. That I think is-
SARAH: Is that a game though?
KAYLA: On a low level I think it is. To me- ‘cause here’s the thing if I was- I was talking to my sister’s- while I was- Iw as texting a friend about his dating situation and I was at my sister’s bachelorette weekend and I was complaining about “I don’t know why he is doing this, he should just be a genuine person- this is so weird to me” and my sister’s best friend, who’s so cool, she’s like polyamorous and queer and has all these tattoos and everything, I’m in love with her.
SARAH: Hell yeah! She was the one other queer person who was at this gathering?
KAYLA: Uh yes she was.
(laughing)
KAYLA: and she also- yeah, it was a whole thing cause I felt kind of out of place because it was all these older women who were getting married and talking about children and then it was me and my sister’s friend-
SARAH: When you say older, you mean in their late twenties?
KAYLA: Older- yes. Like a couple years older than me. I just mean older than me.
SARAH: okay.
KAYLA: But it was very funny because it was just me and my sister’s best friend in the corner like “yeah for sure”.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: And what she was saying cause she had I think trouble dating in the past and kind of was over it, but she was saying “when I finally realized that dating is just a fun way to meet new people and not like I’m dating and to marriage and to make this very heavy lifelong commitment” She was like “it got way more fun”
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: And that's what I think the problem is they see it as- I don’t know what article I saw this because I saw a couple articles, but there was an article about playing the game, but someone was saying basically “to call dating a game is to insinuate that one person is losing and one person is winning, when in reality like how a relationship or dating should work is that both people win” like if you might have to compromise on stuff, but you should both be getting what you need.
SARAH: You should building each other up in a healthy relationship.
KAYLA: You should both be getting something good out of it. But that’s the thing about playing it as a game is because you are trying to get what YOU want out of it, which for some people is companionship of not dying alone, for other people is I have to get married by this age, or I have to fit into my friends and also be in a relationship. So I think a lot of comes down to that external pressure or the internal pressure you’re putting on yourself of “I have to make this work at all costs” or I’m a douchebag who like needs, some- the validation that comes from a successful dating life-
SARAH: I mean-
KAYLA: - so I’m gonna use people to get that.
SARAH: It’s all just social pressure, but in this context of the last 100-150 years, the social — not norms around dating but the expectations around dating have changed so rapidly, I think that just makes it harder.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Cause in the 50s, I mean yeah you might be able to date around a little bit, but you get to a certain point and you’re dating to marry someone, because that’s what you-
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: - you have to. That’s what you have to do. Especially if you’re a woman. If you’re a guy you can go a little longer as a bachelor but if you’re a woman you had to date to marry. And that’s less of a thing now, but we still, it’s just weird we haven’t- we’re in the middle of this reconceptualization of how we date and what dating is. Not that it was ever set in stone, but you know-
KAYLA: I think it-
SARAH: - there is a big change happening in the last couple decades in how we approach that and it's just making it more complicated for everyone.
KAYLA: Yeah if you look back into the 60s its like, you’re dating someone, and you’re going steady and then you’re married. And now its like there’s all these different words of like “i’m texting this person, I’m talking to this person, I’m seeing this person, we have a thing” It’s a lot more confusing. I feel like I read one time somewhere that it was actually teenage girls who came up with the term of “going steady” because they were like “okay we have got to figure out whats going on here-”
(30:00)
SARAH: “We need something”
KAYLA: “because like we need words for this” which I feel like is a lot of what's happening now, because everything is changing so fast. Because the internet happened and everything changed-
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: -within like, within like ten years. And dating became a big part of that with online dating, and how much more you could contact people with texting. Before it was like “okay I’ll call you every night until your mom kicks us off the landline”
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Like, it's just so different and it happens so fast.
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: In within one generation.
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: It’s not like I could get advice on this kind of stuff from my parents because they didn’t have it like this.
SARAH: That happened in one generation and then two generations before that they were writing eachother fucking letters.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Even one generation before that, they also had phones then, but you know what I mean, its changing so rapidly.
KAYLA: Mhm.
SARAH: I was on my way to work and I was thinking as I was playing my music off my phone and had my directions on my little screen on my car and I was driving in my car to get to work and I had already messaged my boss this morning and I was like...imagine if I lived in the 1920s...
KAYLA: I would have died.
SARAH: I would have to just send letters to my family in Michigan.
KAYLA: It would take so long.
SARAH: And occasionally telephone them.
KAYLA: If you had lots of money. Cause like I think about the things my parents will tell me about when they were in college. Like they would have to go to the library and look through the rolodex and use the library computers. And my parents met because my mom was asking my dad’s roommate for help with math and then my dad was like “i’m gonna do it! Because she looks cute.” and they just dated all through college. Like that doesn’t happen.
SARAH: Would you like to hear how my grandparents met?
KAYLA: I already know it, but you can tell.
SARAH: I’m going to tell you about the other ones, but okay fine. My one set of grandparents met because my grandpa was like he had been out sick, they were like in college together, and my grandpa had been out sick or something and he wanted to know if there was a test the next day so he looked up in the yearbook or the list of whoever was in the class and he remembered my grandma because she had very chubby cheeks (laughs) and he was like “oh she’s smart and she’ll know” - no I remember he didn’t know if the test was the next day, so she- so he was like “I’m gonna call up this Karen woman” and so he did and she was like “oh I’ve been out sick, I don’t know if there’s a test”
KAYLA: (laughs) oh. Helpful. And then he said “will you marry me?”
SARAH: (laughs)
KAYLA: She said yes.
SARAH: And my other grandparents met at a frat party.
KAYLA: Classic.
SARAH: But my grandma was seeing someone else at the time, but my grandpa really liked her so he kept coming back to these same frat parties at the same frat for a year-
KAYLA: So cute.
SARAH: -until he finally saw her again. And then they married and had 8 kids and were married for over 50 years. They didn’t get divorced after 50 years, they died, to be clear. (laughs)
KAYLA: Well okay. Anyway, they're very cute. But here’s my thing, because part of me is like before all this it was so much easier to date as a genuine person, but I don’t think that's true because I think as long as dating has been a thing people have been doing stuff like this on some level.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Of like shielding who they actually are.
SARAH: Cavemen would just ugh there way and wack eachother with rocks. There’s always been something.
KAYLA: Yah well that’s the thing about what this article was saying, what this article was saying, what Bree was saying-
SARAH: (whispers) cheese...
KAYLA: - when you’re doing stuff like this you’re not necessarily being your full genuine self, and so you’re not being as vulnerable and so if things go wrong it doesn’t hurt as much because it's not like you were fully putting yourself out there-
SARAH: It’s not like you were giving everything.
KAYLA: If you were being completely genuine through the entire process and saying your real feelings and saying whatever you wanted to without second guessing it the whole time, it would be a lot tougher if they rejected you because it would be like “damn I really told them exactly how I felt and it still was bad”
(35:00)
SARAH: That’s why so many people who have been like very deeply hurt by people in their life have so many walls up because they don’t want it to happen again and that’s natural. It’s natural for us to not want to have to experience that again but it can be detrimental to, you know, finding new relationships, obviously.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Whether those are romantic, sexual or not.
KAYLA: Yeah it’s hard because in my- sitting up here on my little throne of being aspec and also in a long term relationship I’m like “just don’t do it! Just say whatever you’re thinking and be genuine!” but like no, it’s not that easy. And looking back on when I was dating, it is such a nerve wracking thing especially when you genuinely have feelings for someone to not second guess everything. Like what I was talking about with my friends that will like pore over their text messages and like rewrite things, it’s very hard not to do that.
SARAH: Yeah and I mean even imagining- like not every game has to be malicious or even-
KAYLA: No, I think most of them aren’t!
SARAH: Most of them aren’t and you don’t even have to necessarily- like I feel like in some instances, like the whole playing hard to get or whatever, you’re being defensive by playing offense, but in some situations if you’re friends with someone and you really like them, but you don’t want to ruin your friendship. So you might lie to them and you might avoid addressing certain things with them because you’re afraid that if they found out it would ruin your relationship. And to a certain extent that’s playing a game, it's not malicious it’s just defensive. And it's literally just defensive, like it's just this person doesn't want to ruin what they have with this person they obviously care about, but that could be considered a game too. Any relationship any person ever has is in a way a game and it's just whether if it’s a healthy self aware game or not.
KAYLA: Yeah and I mean I don’t think it’s necessarily usually conscious either. There are people who are absolute narcissists that I'm sure do this stuff- well maybe they’re doing this stuff unconsciously and think they’re good people. But you know I think a lot of this is just like how it’s like “oh this is just how dating is”
SARAH: They use other people-
KAYLA: “this is just what I need to do.
SARAH: They use other people to make them feel good, emotionally, physically whatever they want and sometimes that's done maliciously and sometimes they’re just trying to make themselves feel better about themselves I don’t know.
KAYLA: I also like- I don’t know, I don’t think anyone who’s listening should be like “shit I do this all the time!” it's not like you’re a bad person.
SARAH: Unless you’re intentionally gaslighting people.
KAYLA: Unless you’re a narcissist, then work on yourself. But you know, like you said it's not always malicious, and sometimes it can hurt people's feelings, hurt feelings happen all the time in dating. But it’s not like you’re a bad person, it's like you’re trying to protect yourself you know?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: I was thinking like “oh this doesn't happen as much in friendships because the pressure is not as much” but I was thinking about when I was first becoming friends with some of my friends here in Louisiana and I did do some of this stuff on a friendship level.
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: Like “I don’t know if this person wants to be my friend as much as I wanna be their friend” and like “we’re trying to figure out where we should hang out” and “I don’t know if I should suggest we should hang out at my house or if we should go to this restaurant” or “is sending this meme too far for where our friendship is right now?”
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: It felt like I was dating because I was putting so much pressure on this friendship.
SARAH: Early stages of any relationship of any type are just fucking hard.
KAYLA: Mhm.
SARAH: Like it’s so much easier once you become comfortable with the person. And because the early stages are so hard they can be very fun and exciting and cool, but they can also be very fucking hard.
KAYLA: Yeah.
(40:00)
SARAH: And I think that’s just heightened to a certain extent when you’re talking about dating. Not because romance and sex are more important than platonic relationships, but because people place more importance on them, and because people are like, you know, they’re looking for a spouse or you know, they- they take it so much more seriously than with just like a friendship um. And so...
KAYLA: I feel like it's also like with friendship it's like “you could have a million friends! Friendship is everywhere!” But like...
SARAH: Yeah limited resources.
KAYLA: Yeah because it is, it’s not I think you’re… I don’t know the stats but I would assume people have more platonic attraction overall than like- I don’t know, it is easier- I mean it is limited, you know?
SARAH: I don’t actually, but keep talking yourself into a corner.
(laughing)
KAYLA: Okay… Shut up. You’re gonna- ‘cause to build a relationship both people need to be like romantically or sexually- to build a romantic, you know what I mean?
SARAH: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KAYLA: You have to- it has to go both ways which is I think more rare compatibility wise than finding someone to be friends with.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Friendships are just more common.
SARAH: yeah
KAYLA: So when you’re dating it’s like “this could be my one shot” there’s all this pressure like
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: “I could never find someone again who also likes me back”
SARAH: (very affected accent) “My one true love~”
KAYLA: Yeah but like with friendships it's like I could be friends with anyone it's fine.
SARAH: Yeah that’s fair. Oh I was gonna say, you said romantic attraction or whatever is required for a romantic relationship, which is not true.
KAYLA: That’s right, not required.
SARAH: You can have a relationship that is romantic in appearance and in name and in however you want to fashion it even if you don’t have that romantic attraction. And that’s what the spectrum teaches us.
KAYLA: Yes, that’s very true. I’m talking about it very simple-
SARAH: You have to be simplistic because it’s so fucking complicated and it can’t be talked about in all it’s- I mean there’s nothing we’ve ever talked about on this podcast that we’ve ever been truly able to dive into the full complicated nature of it because everything is so fucking complicated, and relationships are complicated and humans are complicated and how humans feel about other humans is really fucking complicated.
KAYLA: Mm yes. I think that’s what this whole episode boils down to. It’s just very complicated and it's just very interesting to me to watch how humans try to get through this by like-
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: -making their little games and making themselves feel better and bolstering themselves up. It’s kind of like a weird chess situation of like… in our- in the back of your mind you both know what's going on, I think, when you’re dating someone you’re both putting on this front and you’re just doing this- going through these motions. I don’t know, it’s very weird.
SARAH: Yeah. I think, for me as a person who is aroace and doesn’t date, like on one hand I’m like I’m so glad I fucking don’t, but on the other hand it’s so easy to get on my high horse and be like (nasally voice) “you should do this and you should do that, and why don’t you communicate better~?” but I do understand that when you’re in it it’s a lot more complicated than that, because it’s fucking- it’s emotional...
KAYLA: Yeah, it's the emotions and the stakes feel high.
SARAH: Yeah that which is emotional we cannot be rational about-
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: -because we’re human people and that’s how it works and I think it’s worth remembering that, but its also (sighs) it’s I mean- it’s fucking hard. That’s all.
KAYLA: Yeah I think that it’s important- like as you’re dating to think about and try to do your best, you know to be conscious about what you’re doing, if you’re doing things like that and you feel like it’s fucking up your relationship or yourself, to kind of consciously be careful. But also it’s not something that everyone is gonna stop.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: It’s not gonna stop, but it's good to be conscious about this kind of stuff, you know?
SARAH: And the reason people do this shit is because at a very basic level people are just insecure and scared and that’s another emotion that you can’t think your way out of either, so...
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: (baby voice) We’re all just scared little babies who want wuve~.
KAYLA: Mm yes.
SARAH: (whispers) I want to see the baby...
KAYLA: Waaouwoo~
SARAH: Is there anything else?
KAYLA: Eh, that’s it.
SARAH: Okay cool! What’s our poll for this week?
KAYLA: Mm.
SARAH: Are you a baby inside? Yes or yes?
KAYLA: Are you a baby?
SARAH: If so, see one of Sarah’s recent tweets and like it ‘cause it’s good.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: It’s my tweet about the baby on board sign.
(45:00)
KAYLA: I liked that one.
SARAH: I’m gonna put a baby on board sign on my driver’s side door so that other drivers know that I am baby and if they honk at me I am liable to cry at any time.
KAYLA: Mhm.
SARAH: So true. Anyway, now that you’ve heard that tweet performed to you, go like it, @costiellie.
KAYLA: (laughs) Performed tweet! Vocal performance of Sarah’s.
SARAH: Do you want a different read? I can do a different read.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Let me pull up the tweet, I need my script in front of me. I am not off book.
KAYLA: So embarrassing when you wrote the book.
SARAH: Um okay. How about this read: (deep breath)... actually can you direct me?
KAYLA: Yeah can I get it like you’re a desperate… Desperate housewife?
SARAH: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. (Very emphatic) “I am getting a baby on board sticker for my driver’s side door to indicate to other drivers that I am baby. And if they honk at me, I will cry Susan.” How was that?
KAYLA: Susan! That was very good.
SARAH: Thank you.
KAYLA: Thank you. I think we got it.
SARAH: Oh my god wait, it has exactly 69 likes.
(laughing)
KAYLA: Oh my god. Okay no one else- if you’re gonna like it-
SARAH: Get someone else to undo it.
KAYLA: -everyone else better do it so we can get to 420 because we can’t ruin the 69 likes for nothing, okay?
SARAH: Anyway our poll for this week… What is it?
KAYLA: (whispers) I don’t know.
SARAH: (whispers) I don’t know either. (regular speaking voice) What the fuck is the game? Would you like to play a game? Would you like to play a game of Ddakji?
KAYLA: Of what?
SARAH: Um I think it’s Ddakji??
KAYLA: I don’t know what that is.
SARAH: And if you win you get a hundred thousand won, and if you lose you owe me a hundred thousand won or I slap you.
KAYLA: Oh!
SARAH: We’re making a Squid Game reference.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: The poll this week is… I mean I feel like people often accidentally play games.
KAYLA: I think most people do unconsciously.
SARAH: Like they don’t realize what they’re doing.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: And I don’t wanna be like (sleazy game show host voice)“hey everyone tell us about a time when you were playing games with someone’s emotions and didn’t realize it~”
(laughing)
SARAH: Like that’s not what I want to do.
KAYLA: That’s a little sad. No one wants to ever realize that.
SARAH: But like, I don’t know, maybe there’s something there.
KAYLA: Mm… I’ll make a note, we’ll see what comes out.
SARAH: And if you can’t come up with anything, just ask red or blue. That man is such a beautiful man… I keep meaning to watch Train to Busan. I don’t wanna talk about the remake. Kayla, what is your beef and your juice this week?
KAYLA: My beef is that today at the store I got some waxing strips to wax my legs.
SARAH: Rips!
KAYLA: Cause I’ve never done it before and for some reason in my mind I was like it's gonna be way faster than shaving...
SARAH: It’s not...
KAYLA: And also maybe fun? (laughs)
SARAH: I think it’s painful is what it is!
KAYLA: Here’s the thing: it really wasn’t that bad pain-wise.
SARAH: Okay.
KAYLA: Wasn’t bothered by it. I have quite a high pain tolerance.
SARAH: (nasally voice) Oh my god, Kayla has quite a high pain tolerance~.
KAYLA: (nasally voice) Nyegegyeayenye.
SARAH: Nyehhh.
KAYLA: But it took a long time and didn’t work very well. Like there was still lots of hair left.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: So I was just disappointed because I thought it would be more fun. And our friend Asritha actually facetimed me in the middle of it because she wanted help buying her friend a present and so she was just having lots of laughing at me because she was just watching me sit on my toilet-
SARAH: Good.
KAYLA: -with my clothes on — don’t be nasty— waxing my lets. And I was like I thought I would have fun! Like I legitimately was like this is gonna be fun. Like I’m not kidding, I thought it was gonna be fun.
SARAH: You were picturing teenage girl sleepover, face masks, waxing...
KAYLA: I guess?
SARAH: (laughs) at what sleepover do you wax your legs?
KAYLA: I don’t- I have no idea what I was picturing… maype I was picturing I was this pinup housewife who's just like nothing to do, but sit on my bed and wax- like I don’t know what I was thinking.
SARAH: Did you not watch those youtube videos back in the day where they would- male youtubers and they would be like “I’m waxing my legs!” and then they’d be like “I wanna die”
KAYLA: Well yeah, but...
SARAH: Did you not think about that?
(50:00)
KAYLA: No I didn’t think about that because men don’t have high pain tolerances so of course they’re gonna cry about it.
SARAH: Men are weak.
KAYLA: And I’m not going to.
SARAH: Men are famously weak.
KAYLA: It wasn’t even the pain.The pain was legitimately nothing. It was fine. I’m just mad that it wasn’t as fun. (laughs)
SARAH: Okay what’s your juice.
KAYLA: (still laughing) I think I’m unwell.
SARAH: Yeah you are.
KAYLA: My juice? Taylor Swift. Very good album.
SARAH: All Too Well ten minute version? I had never heard All Too Well regular version. My first introduction was the music video we watched it at work with all the lights off.
KAYLA: As- as god intended.
SARAH: As god intended.
KAYLA: Very good. The new- the music video that came after that, also very good.
SARAH: Also watched that at work.
KAYLA: As you should.
SARAH: The lights were on that time.
KAYLA: Well you gotta redo that. THat’s not what god wanted.
SARAH: It was daytime.
KAYLA: Okay and? Yeah I guess that’s it.
SARAH: My beef is anxiety. I have so much of it for some reason.
KAYLA: (laughs)
SARAH: And then I forget about it and then it’s like (Skeletor voice) “Ah ha! I’m back with a vengeance!” and I say ahhhh. My juice is...
KAYLA: Just like that.
SARAH: Yeah just like that. My juice is friends who continue to invite you to things even when you say no 75 percent of the time.
KAYLA: Mm that is nice!
SARAH: It’s very nice, because it doesn’t I don’t want to.
KAYLA: Sometimes you’ll say yes!
SARAH: It means I’m anxious.
KAYLA: Sleeping.
SARAH: And afraid and a baby and an introvert. I’m just a little insecure baby that wants to be loved, we established this!
KAYLA: Maybe we should make- I’ve been thinking a lot about new unhinged merch to make recently.
SARAH: Mhm. I had a great merch idea the other day on the way to work. You won’t see it for at least ten months.
KAYLA: Yeah if ever.
SARAH: But it's a great idea. If ever (laughs).
KAYLA: But maybe we need a baby on board t shirt.
SARAH: But then what if people think that you’re pregnant.
KAYLA: Oh shoot… I didn’t even think...
SARAH: Baby on board, parentheses, I’m the baby. (laughs)
KAYLA: Yeah we would need the caveat because you’re absolutely right that is what people would assume huh.
SARAH: Anyway our outros of our pod have been way too long recently.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: You can tell us about your beef, your juice, whether or not you’re a baby on board your own car, or subway, train...
KAYLA: Bike. Moped.
SARAH: Bus. Yeah. One of those things called where you stand on them and they move.
KAYLA: Hoverboard? Skateboard? Scooter?
SARAH: No. The ones with the handles.
KAYLA: Scooter? Razor scooter?
SARAH: No it's like a hoverboard but with the handles.
KAYLA: OH! Mo- uh...
SARAH: Segwayyy.
KAYLA: Yes!
SARAH: That’s what I mean (laughs).
KAYLA: Like a mall cop.
SARAH: LIke a mall cop, exactly. You can tell us about your segways and your segue’s- S-E-G-U-E-
KAYLA: I! No fucking joke I just saw a tweet about Paul Blart mall cop!
SARAH: I think it’s meant to be and you need to get married.
KAYLA: (laughs) You think so?
SARAH: @soundsfakepod we also have a Patreon, patreon.com/soundsfake.com. The $5 patrons we are promoting this week are: Quinn Pollock, Bookmarvel, Jamie Jack and Jessica Shea. Sorry to all of you for this week's episode. Our $10 patrons who we are promoting this week are: Khadir who would like to promote cats named Gnocchi 'Feta' Fettuccine, Potater who’d like to promote potatoes, Changeling MX who’d like to promote starshipchangeling.net, and DAVID JAY who’d like to promote Emergent Strategy by Adrienne Maree Brown. Our other $10 patrons are: The Stubby Tech, Rosie Costello, Hector Murillo, David Nurse, Sherronda J Brown… euhhhhhhh Arcnes, Benjamin Ybarra, Anonymous, my Aunt Jeannie, Cass , Doug Ricccccce, H. Valdís, Barefoot Backpacker, The Steve, Ari K., and Mattie Derek and Carissa. Again, apologizing to all of our patrons for the content that we have given you.
KAYLA: -caused. I’m ready for a break too.
SARAH: I knoww. Our $15 patrons are:Nathaniel White, Nath-thhth- hh tried to do it to fast! NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com, my mom Julie who’d like to promote Free Mom Hugs, Sara who is @eternalloli everywhere, Martin Chiesel who’d like to promote his podcast, Everyone’s Special and No One Is, Leila who’d like to promote “Love is love” also applying to aro people, Shrubbery who’d like to promote The Planet Earth, Maggie Capalbo who’d like to promote Their dogs Minnie, Leia, and Loki, Andrew Hillum who’d like to promote The Invisible Spectrum Podcast, Click4Caroline who’d like the Ace of Hearts documentary, and Dragonfly who’d like to promote hehhh! Our $20 patrons are: Sarah T who’d like to promote long walks outside and no one else anymore so I don’t know why I made it plural. Thanks for listening not next Sunday but the following Sunday for more of us in your ears. Enjoy your Thanksgiving or your random week off if you’re not American.
KAYLA: AAAAAH.(pause) Cows.
SARAH: You- Okay. What if they don’t take good care of them because you didn’t tell them too?
KAYLA: Okay please do, but it’s just so chaotic. It’s just a very fast ending and I got scared.
SARAH: Okay, goodbye.
KAYLA: Byee.
(55:16)