Ep 240: Kink, BDSM, and Asexuality feat. Evie Lupine
(00:00)
SARAH: Hey, what's up, hello, welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aroace girl, I'm Sarah, that's me.
KAYLA: And a bi demisexual girl, that's me, Kayla.
EVIE: And Evie Lupine, a gray-A, also girl.
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.
KAYLA: On today's episode, kink and BDSM.
SARAH AND KAYLA: Sounds Fake But Okay.
(theme music)
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod.
KAYLA: Hello. Welcome to you, and to our special guest.
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: I didn't mean you as in you, Sarah, I meant the listener.
SARAH: Yeah, I know you never mean me.
KAYLA: Oh, okay.
SARAH: This is a hostile space for me only.
KAYLA: This is not a safe space for Sarah.
EVIE: No tenderness and love in there, apparently.
KAYLA: No.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: this is a safe space for guests only, not for the hosts.
SARAH: Precisely. Well, speaking of guests?
KAYLA: We have one.
SARAH: Yeah. Hi, Evie. Do you want to tell the people who you are, what you do, what your favorite color is, not tell them your home address?
EVIE: Yeah, I'd love to do everything on that list except for tell people my home address. So my favorite color is purple. Actually, all my favorite colors are on the ace flag, so I find that highly convenient.
KAYLA: That's perfect. That's very good.
EVIE: Yeah, but so basically, I'm an asexual person. I'm a full-time YouTuber. That's like my main gig in life is I'm a full-time YouTuber talking about BDSM, polyamory, alternative relationships, consent. Sometimes more mainstream, general sexuality, but mostly more into the weird stuff on the outskirts of what most people would normally feel comfortable discussing. And I'm just so happy to be here and get to share a little bit of that because I very rarely get to speak in especially a professional-ish format with other ace people.
SARAH: We’ll accept that
EVIE: There's definitely groups within, and we'll talk about this, I assume, there's definitely groups within the BDSM community that are more ace friendly. But I feel like whatever it happens, it's sort of like, you know, the Spider-Man meme where it's like one Spider-Man pointing at the other, like kind of asexual over there. I see you. I see your pin from across the room. That's what it kind of feels like sometimes.
KAYLA: That's how I feel every time I see an A-Spec person out with a pin or something, I'm always like, huh, you.
SARAH: Those are my people. But then I'm too afraid to actually say anything, so then I just stare at them awkwardly.
KAYLA: I get very shy
EVIE: I feel like that's our signature move
KAYLA: Yes
EVIE: is just staring knowingly and being like, OK, but I don't want to make this awkward and then leaving.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: You’re one of us
KAYLA: I'm so excited we're talking about Kink and BDSM, though, because basically since we started the show, we've really wanted to talk about this. But it's not a community that Sarah or I are in. So we've always been like, we need to bring in someone
SARAH: an expert.
KAYLA: An expert. So I'm very excited.
EVIE: Well, here I am, the expert.
KAYLA: And here you are. Yes. And part of the book that Sarah and I wrote that's coming out soon, everyone go buy it, shameless plug, we wrote a part of it about kink, too. So we kind of got like a tiny introduction to like the intersection of kink and aceness.
EVIE: Mm
KAYLA: But I'm so excited to learn more.
EVIE: Yeah, for sure. Is there any kind of starter questions you guys have along those lines? Like, I guess I don't want to assume that your audience doesn't know anything, but I also don't want to assume your audience knows a ton either.
KAYLA: Yeah, I feel like starting out with like the very basics just to like make sure everyone on the same page would be helpful. Like, if you have a basic definition of what Kink or BDSM is, because I also know there are some very different definitions out there.
EVIE: Mhm
KAYLA: And we when we were writing the book, we had a very hard time finding a definition that didn't talk about like sex exclusively. So yeah, I'd be really interested to hear like what your definition is.
EVIE: Yeah, so it's interesting because kink and BDSM in terms of the vernacular of the BDSM community kind of get treated as synonymous. Like just people throw those around interchangeably. I would say that kink has a little bit of a squishier definition to it? What I would consider BDSM is just like it's a very easy, simple acronym. You know, it's B for bondage, D for discipline and dominance, S for sadism and submission, and M for masochism. There's like a really interesting history out there about how that exact term came to be, because it used to be, and you'll see this in
(05:00)
EVIE: the academic literature, unfortunately, about this still is you'll see people say SM or S&M and then B and D.
SARAH: Like the Rihanna song.
EVIE: Yes, like the Rihanna song. Yes, it's funny how like sort of behind the actual culture who does this stuff, like academia and popular culture can be, because it's like, OK, that's what we said like 20 years ago. Like this is sort of where we're at now. But yeah, I think that BDSM has like the easiest of all the definitions. When you get into what counts as a kink, that's when it gets trickier. I actually had somebody, when I tried to define this on Twitter, tell me that like, well, because I have a sensual experience eating an orange, it means that I have a kink for eating an orange. And it's like, no, that's not what it is.
KAYLA: Yeah
EVIE: I would define kink in like the way that I have found is the best way to describe it that doesn't connect it to sex is as a non-normative intimacy practice, because intimacy doesn't have to mean sex, obviously, that could mean anything that's bonding that helps you feel closer to the person that you're doing something with and because kink and BDSM activities involve an inherent level of like higher trust and closeness and all those other things as well, like that's where I can kind of consider it intimate, even if it's not necessarily romantic or sexual in nature. But of course, you get into like, okay, if it's like a non-normative intimacy practice, does that mean like cuddle puddles are a kink? And it's like, well, I certainly know people in the kink scene that host events like that. But is it a kink? Who's to say? It's very much like trying to figure out what a definition for pornography is. Like it's sort of like even the even the greatest legal minds have had to kind of settle on like, you know, when you see it, essentially
SARAH: Yeah
EVIE: I mean, like people that do kink know what a kink is. And more or less, that's that's how you have to go with it.
SARAH: Yeah, I feel like obviously, as someone who's outside the community, my understanding of when people are like, oh, well, I don't know if that's a kink or not. It's like that person's not usually a member of the community.
EVIE: Mhm
SARAH: Like, it's usually the people like, sure, there can absolutely be discussion and disagreement about specifics. But if someone's like, you know, eating an orange is a kink, I'm like, I think maybe you're not as informed as you think you are.
EVIE: Yeah. Or they're just being contrarian. That tends to be the case is they're just like, haha, look at the silly BDSM people and their ridiculousness. I'm going to say that eating an orange is a kink for me, even though it's not.
SARAH: Yeah
EVIE: I'm like, there are people that, like, I guess could be into the texture of an orange or the smell of an orange in a way that could be like fetishistic, where it's more of a psychological, like more of a medicalized thing. But like most people don't like, you know, use oranges in their kink practice. I did see a photo today of somebody using a lemon in a BDSM scene, but usually not oranges.
KAYLA: I have seen, I mean, there's that grapefruit video.
SARAH: Not the grapefruit video. That scares me.
EVIE: (laughing) Okay, wait, we had, there's a scary grapefruit video that I don't know about.
SARAH: It's not actually scary. I'm just too asexual for it.
KAYLA: Sarah's too, yeah, sex-averse for it. It was like viral, I feel like, when I was in like middle school and high school, but it's this lady that's like teaching women how to give their like boyfriends the best blow job. And she's like, okay, hollow out a grapefruit and then like hide it under the bed. So it's like a surprise. And then you blindfold him and then you like put the grapefruit on. And obviously it's also like very like cis. She's like
EVIE: oh, the grapefruit goes on.
KAYLA: It's on the penis.
EVIE: I see. Okay.
KAYLA: Yes. But she, but then she like demonstrates and makes a lot of noises that are just very visceral. And so we watched this as like, you know, middle schoolers. So of course it was just a situation.
SARAH: I'm just a little too sex averse asexual for that one to really hold.
EVIE: No, I was not in any way curious in middle school. I was like, I like horses. That was me. I was like, I like horses. I like reading books. La la la la.
SARAH: (laughing) Me
EVIE: Not thinking any way about like sex or relationships or anything like that until I went to college. That should have maybe been an earlier sign, but I grew up in like a Catholic household.
KAYLA: So did we
EVIE: And so I was just like, this is how it's supposed to be. Yes. The Catholic to asexual pipeline. It is real.
KAYLA: Love a post-Catholic life.
SARAH: Just some post-Catholic she hers on the A-spectrum in this Zoom call.
KAYLA: Speaking of that, then I feel like I love just like asking our guests this in general,
just to like get kind of like their aspec background. But when did you kind of like
discover your asexuality or start thinking about it?
(10:00)
KAYLA: How did you come to that realization?
EVIE: So for me, it really happened in two stages because the first time I was introduced to
asexuality, I was in high school, I think it was in 10th grade, and I dated somebody who is asexual. And he like told me this is what this is. And he was very much like much farther on the aspectrum than I was. And so I kind of thought, oh, that's what being ace is. But I can't really be that because I'm not like over here on this kind of farther point of the spectrum. And that wasn't until I was in college and I realized that I was like never in any way curious about like pornography or masturbation or anything like that at all. And I was like, okay, well, I'm in college and I'm like free from my, you know, high school relationship and I'm free from my parents. Like, I should probably try and learn about this and explore it because I don't know anything about this and I'm curious and I want to know. And I went through a period of like trying to experiment with stuff and seeing what felt right or felt good. And nothing really resonated with me in the way that I sort of expected that it should? And when I was in high school, that was like 2009 to like 2012. And so it was kind of based on like that time period of knowledge about asexuality. And so the term demisexuals around and like gray were around, but they weren't like, unless you knew to like look for it in a very certain part of Tumblr or like the AVEN forums, like you couldn't really necessarily find a whole lot of information about it. But when I was in college a couple years later and I was researching more, I think I, I think I watched an Ash Hardell video and then I also watched, I cannot remember their names, but there was a couple of other ace content creators at the time who had videos about discovering that they were ace and I watched those and then I was like, okay, this is starting to sound more like me. I started kind of to play around with maybe using that label and then I was like, okay, I think this actually works and more or less any person I've romantically dated since that point has been like, yep, you're ace.
KAYLA: That’s funny
EVIE: Definitively, definitely different from the typical heterosexual dating experience, for sure. SARAH: It's so interesting to me that your first exposure was because you, you dated someone who is ace, like you had an IRL interaction with someone.
EVIE: Mhm
SARAH: I feel like so many people find out about it online and that's pretty much the only story that you hear. So it's really interesting, even if it did kind of lead you astray a little bit
EVIE: Mhm
SARAH: in terms of understanding what it truly meant, it's cool, honestly, that like that was your first exposure.
KAYLA: Especially like circa like 2010, 2011, when like, I feel like now there's a lot more like high schoolers, especially I've noticed that are like out, they know what asexuality is, like they know what's going on, but like when I was in high school, like that, like those are just words that I never, like just like were not accessible.
EVIE: Yeah. I wish I could go back in time and like ask this person, like how they found this language.They were like a very online person. So that does not surprise me that they found it somewhere. And I think it's funny that I went to a really big high school. And so it's funny that somehow, like probably the two ace people that went to that school, like somehow found each other to one another.
SARAH: (laughing) We flock to one another
EVIE: Yeah. I just went like, oh, let's be a little group. And I don't know if anyone else,
like I don't keep up with anyone that I went to high school with. So I have no idea, like if I
surveyed them now, like how many of those people would turn out to be ace today, if they discovered it after high school. But I do feel very lucky I got to have that interaction because I feel like if you only ever hear about it online, it feels kind of theoretical, I guess, like that, oh, other people are like this, but I don't really know what that means. And like how do I interact? And is there a community? And I was very fortunate that I got this like real life, clear example of like how a relationship functions with another asexual person. And when I was in college, there was, I can't remember what language they used for it, but it was like an LGBT+ resource center. And I want to say I went to a couple of meetings for that and there was one aspec person on the leadership team for that, but it was definitely mostly focused around like the other parts of the acronym more so than asexuality. And so it wasn’t really a good fit for me. But yeah, I was really grateful I got to meet an actual fellow asexual like so early on, even though, like you said, it kind of lead me astray in terms of my definition because I think I don't know how they would identify now, but based on how our relationship went
(15:00)
EVIE: it was like, it was more like a queer platonic relationship than it was like a genuine romantic relationship. I'm pretty sure they are aro-ace, but at the time they only like used the label for asexual. And so, you know, it was very much like this over here and then I'm more gray. I am definitely more romantically motivated as a person. And so it was like, okay, that didn't really mesh with my experience, but at least online at the time when I did research it originally was like “the truest number one best way to be an asexual is to be aro-ace and everything else is basically like”, you know, not really the same thing.
SARAH AND KAYLA: Gold star asexual, yeah
EVIE: And like, oh my God, why are we doing this?
KAYLA: It's very intimidating. So I'm assuming that because you said that you didn't have like much interest in like exploring like sex or anything around it. I'm assuming that your kind of like discovery of the kink and BDSM community came after your realization that you were ace or maybe around the same time?
EVIE: It was kind of around the same time. I sort of just like dove into everything with sexuality all at once. And I was starting to explore my sexuality and exploring like what I liked and what I didn't like and what I wanted in a relationship. And then as part of that process, I knew someone who like knew I was going through this journey of exploration and they basically recommended a local, it’s called a sex positive center is what it is. And that's kind of like code for like a BDSM dungeon that like has a membership and is like, you know, technically able to legally exist because it's a performing arts venue or something. They're very creative with the way that they name these things to be able to fill out, you know, nonprofit applications essentially. But in any case, somebody had recommended I check this place out and I did some research about it and I quickly found out that it was a place where people did BDSM. And I'm not sure how common this is for other ace people. And I know there's some research about like the fantasy lives of people that are on the ace spectrum, but obviously not very much, not nearly as much as I would like. But I definitely had like what I would consider to be like non-sexual fantasies that were related to BDSM in some way that I thought were like really interesting to just like think about it. Like, wouldn't this be a cool idea if like I was basically like writing stories in my head essentially. And I just thought, oh, BDSM isn't something that anyone really does. You know, this is just like a fantasy that's in a book or in your head and no one ever really does it. And so I was really shocked when I found out that it's something that people did in real life. And I was like, oh, you can actually like do this? And so through that website ended up finding something called FetLife, which is essentially like kinky… Facebook. And then I found like events. I found like a quiz. It's called the BDSM test. It's called BDSMtest.org. And it essentially is like a, now it's a lot longer than I think it used to be, but it's like a fairly long quiz that you get to answer. Like how, how, like, how do you like the idea of being tied up and things like that? And everything on the quiz is unfortunately very like sexual in nature, language wise. It'll be like, is it hot to you for, to do this or whatever. And it's like, I just have to kind of cover my eyes and then just like, you know, go like erasing the part where this is about sex. This is my answer. And that was really helpful for kind of giving me some first terms to start researching, but all that kind of happened more or less, I would say within the same year or so, because like I'm a big nerd and so like, I love researching stuff. I love reading. And so when I found something that I could like research about that was really interesting, I was like, sweet, I'm going to, I want to dive in. Because it wasn't enough I was a double major in college. I have to do more research for some freaking reason. Cause why not?
SARAH: (laughing) You’re not going to half ass it, are you kidding? But yeah.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: You're speaking to two other double majors. We just keep like more and more things coming together and it's like, are the three of us the same person?
EVIE: It could be. We could, we, we might be like, like, is there, I feel like there's like a Disney movie with a plot about like three girls find each other and they're all born in the same day and
their secret long lost triplets or whatever. They have magical powers. There's a movie in the works for that
KAYLA: Yes, I want it
EVIE: I'm sure somewhere.
KAYLA: Because it happened around the same time and like, because some, so much of the language around kink does, like you were saying, kind of like also the language of sex, did it ever make you like second guess your ace backness of like, oh, if I'm interested in kink, like there's no way I could be aspec?
EVIE: I'm trying to think of like what my thought process was at the time. Cause I, I, my identity about asexuality hadn't really been settled yet until I kind of already got into discovering kink. And it was through getting to do kink and kind of seeing my reactions to it
(20:00)
EVIE: versus like my partners and how other people talked about it where it was like, okay, I'm definitely asexual. So kind of the settling on my kink identity and also being ace happened like pretty closely together. But certainly at first, like if you do any kind of research, especially when you don't really know what to look for, it's so easy to kind of fall for these very prescriptive, like kink is always like this and people who do BDSM are like this. And you just sort of take it as fact because you don't know what else to think. And surely this person online that wrote this blog in 2002 is the definitive, you know, expert person on this subject. So, you know, getting to expand more into meeting people that I knew locally, cause thankfully being in a college town, there was like a pretty robust kink scene of other like kinky college kids. And so I could talk to them and that information was like much more reliable and accurate and diverse than just whoever wrote a blog article in 2002 that for some reason was still popping up on the first page of Google search results.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Yeah. That definitely like when we were writing the part of our book that's about kink, we definitely had a really hard time. We were just trying to find like a definition that wasn't immediately like kink is a sex thing that blah, blah, blah. We were like,
SARAH: No
KAYLA: and it was like, it was very difficult to find anyone having like a more nuanced discussion about like the definition that you gave about like intimacy rather than like, it's always has to be a sex act or something like that.
EVIE: Yeah.
SARAH: I know that, I know that discussion is happening. So Google, what the fuck are you doing?
EVIE: Yeah. It's so interesting to me, like how I see people define it in like blogs or online or in like newspaper articles, because in the kink scene, it's very interesting because even people that are allosexual don't always process beauty as process BDSM as a sex thing. So it's not even that it's like ace people that do BDSM don't process that as a sex thing, but everyone else does. Like it's across the board. It doesn't matter what your orientation is. There's a lot of people who do BDSM with like genders of people they're not attracted to. There's lesbians that do BDSM with men. There's gay men that do BDSM with lesbians. Like there's, there's all kinds of combinations of people that do BDSM and find it very enjoyable when sex is not on the table at all. Or even when it does involve a level of like underlying sexuality that doesn't necessarily result in it being a sex act or like involving something with genitals directly. It might be like mentally stimulating or arousing, but everyone in the BDSM community that I know would like agree that, you know, kink doesn't always have to be sexual. And sometimes you'll get into little arguments on Twitter, as is what oftentimes happens where somebody will be like, kink is inherently sexual. And they, of course, they're never involved in kinks. They wouldn't really know. They're just going off of the same internet definitions of everybody else. And it's like, okay, you quoted from the urban dictionary. Maybe that's not the authoritative, maybe that's not the authoritative resource on what counts as being BDSM or not
SARAH: but it has dictionary in the name!
EVIE: Everyone knows the urban dictionary is the best dictionary online for accuracy purposes. SARAH: That's the most accurate.
EVIE: Yeah, for sure.
KAYLA: As an aspec person, what would you say, or I guess not even as, just like as a person, what would you say that like you get out of kink most? Like what is the like satisfaction you get or like the reason that you go back to it?
EVIE: I would say there's probably two main things that I get out of doing BDSM. And it depends on what I'm doing because there's so many different ways to engage in BDSM. And at one point I tried to catalog like all of the main broad categories of different types of BDSM you can do. And there's over like 200 different distinct acts that are on that list. And so I would say on the one hand, if I'm doing something in a relationship and it's more of a dynamic that's like the relationship is kind of focused around the BDSM, that I get sort of a sense of satisfaction and like, fulfillment emotionally and romantically from like serving my partner or like helping take care of the house and like being recognized for that. And just like that more romantic bonding thing I find to be very motivating within BDSM. But outside of that, I also do play with people non-sexually, non-romantically where it's like a platonic interaction, like we're friends outside of doing stuff together and we just like are able to have a conversation but also have fun together because we enjoy the same things. And that is much more of like a physical relaxation sort of a thing?
(25:00)
EVIE: Where it's not really, it can have a level of like you know emotional intensity to it, but it tends to be more about like the more immediate like physical benefits of you know relaxation, escapism from everyday stresses. And when you look at surveys of people in the kink scene about like why is it you do BDSM? The number one most common thing you'll hear people say especially for things like role play is they do it because it's a relaxation tool. Because it helps them, you know, not think about their boss calling them on the highway or you know or just like the really big project they're working on or stressing about finishing their paper for grad school. Like it just is a way to completely go into another headspace where you don't have to make decisions. At least as you're playing on the submissive side and the dominant side is a little bit different where you know having that authority and trust in the relationship and getting to dictate how things go can be very beneficial for people because they might not have that in their everyday life and having that sense of control in the relationship can be really nice or just as like how they are and they want to have relationships that are that way. And I know a fair number of it's actually funny because like all of the main youtubers that talk about kink on youtube are like somewhere on the ace spectrum.
KAYLA: That’s funny
EVIE: It's not just me like somehow we all end up being the educators but there are a fair number of dominant women that are on the ace spectrum that enjoy domination and BDSM because that's like they don't I haven't you know talked to all of them personally like every single dominant woman on the planet. But a fair number of them if they are ace they don't tend to be like sex-averse or sex repulsed they tend to be more neutral to favorable and they find that BDSM allows them a way to engage in sex typically with their non-asexual partners in a way that feels good and beneficial for them without having kind of the drawbacks of maybe more like heteronormative sexual interactions.
SARAH: Yeah I find like for me it took me a long time to like, understand why people participate in kink
EVIE: Mm
SARAH: and I think if you're more like me and you just like don't get it I would really encourage you to just like read up on why people do it and read about people's experiences
EVIE: Mm
SARAH: because for me it was like I just didn't get the appeal of it
EVIE: Mhm
SARAH: and also you know in my mind it was so sexualized and so as an ace I was like but then one day I heard it conceptualized in a certain way and I was like I get it now like it just took this one good explanation for it to make sense in my head.
EVIE: Mm
SARAH: And so I think you know if for those listeners who maybe just don't get it
at all like you you can you can get it eventually it's not like you'll never get it
EVIE: Yeah
SARAH: it's something that you can you know just the the more you dig into it the more the the more perspectives you hear the more that you can be like oh okay I I get it.
EVIE: Mhm. Yeah and I find for people that are trying to figure out like is BDSM for me or not I always recommend people go to multiple sources watch multiple videos from different creators read different blogs different books because like I've read BDSM books where I can't even get through them because like the perspective of the author is like so different from mine I'm like I know everyone loves this book but I just can't keep reading it because it's written from this guy from like the 1970s and he has a very kind of like ex hippie commune like kind of approach to the way he talks about BDSM, which is totally not me and the other books I go wow this is like exactly what I've been trying to explain in my own head and somebody just like put it on paper, which is awesome, but yeah it's like so individual as long as it just takes like finding the right person, the right example for it to click.
KAYLA: Yeah I think like the way it's presented in mass media at least is like obviously very sexualized because like sex sells
EVIE: Mhm
KAYLA: and that's what I guess people are like we have to put it in the headline because that's what people are going to read but it does also does make it seem such like a monolith like it's like only the 50 shades of gray type of thing
EVIE: Yeah
KAYLA: or like BDSM can only be done this certain way when like any other activity like it is so
customizable.
EVIE: Mhm
KAYLA: I think that's what it made it feel very accessible to me was like just thinking about it as like an activity you do with your partner or with like a friend or just like an acquaintance or whatever like taking away the sexualization of it and just saying like this is an activity I like to do with like bond with my partner or bond with like this person and like instead of sitting down to watch a movie or like going bowling or whatever to build emotional intimacy like this is what we are doing instead it feels like it lowers the stakes a bit you know.
EVIE: Yeah and I think that's something that is unfortunate about a lot of the popular media representations of kink is it is this like this is the way BDSM is and I think it really comes down to what is most understandable and palatable to like a wider allosexual audience, which is okay they wouldn't really be able to understand most of the time why someone would do BDSM if it wasn't for a romantic relationship, if it wasn't monogamous, if it wasn't sexual in nature and so they kind of do this version of BDSM that is essentially like the standard romance movie tropes of like you know a girl sees a man in an elevator and they both get super horny and then they run into each other later oops he's her boss and then it turns into like a whole like all of that right, but then BDSM gets added on to that as like extra seasoning essentially as opposed to understanding BDSM as like a separate, different, complicated way – it doesn't have to be complicated, but like what goes into BDSM in order to have it in a relationship on like a regular basis can be fairly complicated and so it's like you don't really ever get to see what BDSM really is because it's so watered down to make sense to people that would not otherwise ever understand or interact with BDSM
SARAH: When you see it in the media I feel like as you kind of mentioned it it only applies
to certain types of relationships that we that we see
EVIE: Mhm
SARAH: BDSM and kink in you know in conversation with it has to be you know there are these ground rules as to what it has to look like in order to add the bonus BDSM
EVIE: Yeah
SARAH: and it's like that's not how it works in real life
EVIE: Mhm, exactly yeah it's so diverse and it's so like it is not just for like hot 20 year olds on tumblr it's not just for you know rich billionaires like it's every different type of person can do BDSM but I was just at a convention recently for BDSM and I saw I want to say like five different guide dogs? There were all kinds of people using mobility aids they were they were asl translators. There were all different shapes sizes types age ranges of people everyone from 18 to like 75 like it was all across the board and like it really is something that a cross section of our society asexual, non-asexual can get a benefit out of and can enjoy not everyone has to enjoy it obviously, but it's something that a lot of different people can enjoy and not having media that represents that diversity I think is such like a such a missed opportunity because there's I feel like there's so many good stories to tell about kink and kink relationships that could be really funny romantic comedies or I don't know just like any like any of a number of different like popular like slice of life type genres involving kink could be really interesting but like those don't
get made so blah blah
KAYLA: Given how like diverse and um like customizable it is, and also just like how inaccessible like the mass media makes it seem. What advice would you give to an aspec person who's like I feel like I might be interested in kink but like I don't know how to like go about
entering that scene?
EVIE: Mm. It sort of depends on if they want to do something in person or not if they just kind of want to explore online. I'm gonna assume for the sake of making this a shorter answer that it's somebody who wants to get involved in person and wants to you know maybe meet someone in person to try BDSM with that tends to be the most common experience. I already talked about FetLife, which is again like kinky facebook. Fair warning for the sex averse among us I would be cautious about using FetLife do not go to the tab called kinky and popular because it tends to just basically be straight up pornography but if you make an account and you don't like do a whole lot on there besides maybe you know end up friending people you end up meeting in real life it is the number one way to find events and usually what I tell people if they want to find an event is look for something called a munch which is a non-sexual public gathering of kinky people usually on like a weekday after work where people go to a cafe or a restaurant or a bar or something and they go get a drink or an appetizer and they share that with a group of people and they just like talk about life stuff some of them have different themes to them uh there actually used to be where I used to live there was an aroace like munch and like it was just for people. It was unfortunately in a part of town that was not easy for me to get to so I ended up not being able to go to it to myself but I knew the people who ran it and there are definitely the possibility of finding an interest group like that that's more aroace tailored but also you could look for just more general munches and look for things because they are non-sexual public gatherings where you’re just there to talk and meet people and I’ve never been to a munch where I felt like it was like too forward or people were using it for cruising or speed dating or anything like that because the rules around that tend to be pretty strict but, you know always be cautious do not go to an event where like three people rsvp'd like make sure it's kind of a larger more well-known event read the description read the rules figure out where the venue is going to be. I always recommend messaging the event organizer to ask them about you know the rules of where you're going and when it is and just to clarify anything you might be worried about you know what age range of people to expect etc because you know sometimes if you're 50 you don't want to go hang out with a bunch of 20 year olds and vice versa but also because I think it's important to kind of see how the leader of the event responds to questions because if they just don't ever answer you at all or like they blow you off, or they're very dismissive about your concerns like that's a red flag to not go but for the most part you're probably going to be fine and I always recommend people go early to events where there's not as many people yet because it's easy to leave but it's always low pressure or it should be at least like don't feel like you have to stay if you just go and say hi to like three people that's awesome because people are very used to people showing up to like one munch and then like never coming back again so if you just go once and you get brave that one time that's all you really need like when I was first getting into the BDSM community I don't even think I went to a munch I think I just like met people who went to my same college like and lived in the same town that I did and we ended up going to a like just a full-on party together and like it was really fun and I like I looking back on it I was like wow that was like kind of an insane thing that I just like went to a party at a place I didn't really know anything about and ended up like being a really good time but you know ,that's how how my whole journey started so it's hard not to recommend it. You just got to be a little bit brave basically.
SARAH: munches sound like a good way to meet people too because like as an adult how do you make friends?
KAYLA: how do you make friends?
SARAH: how do you how do you meet like-minded people go to a munch.
EVIE: I mean really like the BDSM community is such a good way to make friends because the secret is we're not rich billionaires we're all fucking nerds like we're all just like like we're all every this could just be where I live because I tend to live in cities where there's like a pretty big like tech presence and so maybe it's just sort of like tech bro overlap with BDSM culture but from what I've heard from people across the country most places it tends to be people that have like a fairly strong overlap between like ren-fairs and video games and like whatever your little hobby is and this is my personal tip for this isn't even like I didn't invent this but I always make sure to say this is like wear something like maybe a t-shirt from like a band you really like or a franchise you’re into or like a lanyard or a pin or just like something that tells people a little bit about who you are and what your interests are without having to actually speak to you first because that can be one of the ways that makes it hard to have a conversation is when somebody doesn't know how to start a conversation with you even if they want to and like having on a cool t-shirt for like a band that you both really like is a great way to do that but yeah the kink community is awesome for making friends, like everyone I know that is not in the kink scene objectively has a much harder time making and sustaining adult friendships compared to people in the BDSM scene because it's this outside of workspace where you have a shared hobby. You have a place to do that hobby in and it's something where a lot of people are very emotionally open and vulnerable but also are very respectful of boundaries at the same time like asking for pronouns, asking before touch/hugs but also like actually when somebody asks you about how your day goes they want to know how your day goes. They don't want just the pleasantries like if they say that and they're your friend like how was work actually though like what's up with that one co-worker like how's that
SARAH: did your boss call you while you were on the highway?
EVIE: yeah exactly. Yeah well how is that how is that experience for you like you know like you know are you still thinking about finding a new job? Like people actually want to know you and they and they care and there's a lot of empathy and a lot of support and it's not perfect like I always hear stories from people where the problem with any community that's around like this be it you know SEA or renfairs or other I'm just thinking of larping today for some reason that's a lot but any like polyamory has a problem as well where it's a small enough community to wear in a local place like even like a sizable city like Seattle I would say that there was like when I left and part of this is because of covid, smaller than it used to be there were like two big dungeons in the area that you could like be a membership, you know have a membership to and they had equipment. You can go play at them at on the weekends and there would probably be about I would say like four really regular munches and then like another three or four that were kind of on and off or maybe like once a month, and there was like a discussion group there were a couple of other events like there was like a body storytelling event uh there was like a book club I think as well as a couple other sort of miscellaneous events not just you know so the two big main categories but even within that it's so small that like one person if it's like if you're from the middle of nowhere in Nebraska and like there's one munch in like the entire town and that's it like one guy can just kind of take over the scene and be like oh well I'm an experienced dom but I’ve been doing this for 20 years this is what I say “real BDSM” is and they can really influence what kind of newer people coming up in that scene think “real BDSM” air quotes present for the listeners, the “real BDSM” is supposed to look like and that is obviously not the case. You have to worry about people getting a little bit power hungry but I think the how small the community is that there's a real sense of like genuine community not just like you know strangers that happen to, you know, go to the same gym as you
KAYLA: yeah I think that's the hard thing with like any niche community is like there is always just like some weird stuff…
EVIE: there's always some dude
KAYLA: happening yeah like I listen to a gossip possum
SARAH: (laughing) there's a gossip possum?
KAYLA: gossip podcast I listen to gossip. Yeah, there's a gossip possum – no there's a podcast
EVIE: I love it
KAYLA: yeah but they did like a whole episode about like your niche community drama and it was just very silly how like every small community has that um but like everything i've heard about like the BDSM community like exactly lines up with that and it makes so much sense because like when done correctly like one of the main tenets of BDSM is like getting consent and making sure everyone is comfortable and like talking through everything first before you do it so it's like it's natural that like of course a community who's like main activity necessitates that like of course they're going to be lovely people because like you have to be you can't be – I mean obviously you can everyone can be an asshole but you know like it's harder to have assholes that are like doing that kind of thing right
EVIE: yeah they at least have to have a sense of restraint about it, you know. They can't be as flagrant and like the main issue we tend to run into as a community is like a lot of the people that run events that tend to be problematic, like tend to have the resources and money to be able to just so they get kicked out from somewhere, make their own thing, and then all the new people that go there don't know the previous history but then you don't want to get sued for defamation and so you can't really get you know talk about it and that might seem for the listeners like a completely off the wall thing to say like what do you mean “getting sued for defamation”? That never really happens. I know a dungeon that I – I don't want to get too much into the details but essentially they publicly shared the name – and like publicly in the sense of like within their community circle – they shared the name of somebody that had been banned from their events or at least like restricted from their events in some way, and this guy happened to have a fair amount of money and resources and he just sued them out of existence.
KAYLA: Wow
EVIE: I think even the individual members of the board might have ended up being like liable for some portion of the expenses as a result of the litigation but like it was a really it was a long time ago so I don't remember the details it's not where I lived it was like close enough to me to where I knew people that went there and I knew the venue but hadn't been to it and like it happens. There are just people who are very litigious and are not happy about having “their good name” smeared to the public, and so you have to be careful.
SARAH: Yeah
EVIE: but you know if it is done correctly there is always that focus on consent and accountability and I think in a lot of ways because of the nature of what we do we have to keep that so much more present because like the sort of littler consent violations that can happen in like a vanilla interactionM which is just like a non-kinky interaction is basically the same thing as saying like allosexual, it's vanilla just means non-kinky and that tends to crop up with problems of like “oh baby I was just reading your body language and I thought you liked it” and it's like that's just kind of taken as like a given of like the risk of engaging sexually with a person you don't know very well. I'm like no it doesn't have to be that way you can talk first it's okay I promise it won't spoil everything
(45:00)
SARAH: yeah I also want to be clear like to not to scare anyone away is like people being litigious people being assholes. That's a people problem.
EVIE: yeah
SARAH: that's not a problem with the specific community and as we kind of mentioned all of these small, insular communities tend to have you know those those instances those interactions
EVIE: Mhm
SARAH: so don't let that scare you away because there are so many good wonderful people you know in the community who who will not sue you
EVIE: yep yeah no the sewing thing is definitely rare it just does happen and like most of the main websites and places where people talk about kink have fairly strict rules about you can't like name people like you can't like, when you're on twitter you know you can like at somebody on twitter
SARAH: Mhm
EVIE: it's like not a thing on like kink related social media like you just can't do it and if you did your post would get like more or less immediately taken down because the company doesn't want to be liable and then also we'd be bad for the individual people but yeah I don't want to scare anyone away I just want to set up realistic expectations of like you could go to a munch technically and have a not so great time in which case I recommend because of inner community drama there tends to be a second munch that pops up because the first munch is shit, and then you go to the second one and like there's usually like the most common issue I see from people is like they will talk to me about how like “oh there's this one munch” but then like the person who runs it is like the bitter enemy of the person that runs the second munch and they don't even really remember why they don't like each other but it's like somebody probably insulted somebody's scene or an outfit or something they wore and like they just like you know, the pettiness is always is always present and you know people. People love drama no matter what community you're in there will always be drama
SARAH: unfortunately
KAYLA: unfortunately
EVIE: some people live off of that I swear but like yeah no it's it's exhausting it can be mildly entertaining when it's not you but also at the same time it is destructive to the beneficial components of why we do this kind of stuff as a community in the first place
KAYLA; yeah it is, this is like changing topics kind of I don't know but like it is like the more I learn about like kink and BDSM, especially through aspec spaces it's just so cool to see like like you saying that there's there was like an aro ace munch like growing up learning what kink was through mass media that is never something I thought would be like a cross section of communities and it's just so cool to hear you say that like yeah, all of the like BDSM educators on youtube are like, we all happen to be ace or it's just so cool to me to see that like that is like a community that is like there and intersecting even if like at times it is not perfect or there is like pain points there of like people trying to learn which is very cool
EVIE: yeah I have definitely noticed there is a concerted effort in BDSM spaces at least where I've lived even places where I don't live I don't just heard about things to include asexual people. I have been to events and meetings and things where people have talked about BDSM in a way that doesn't really resonate with me like usually when you sign up to go to a dungeon you have to do an orientation first to like learn the rules of the space and they'll talk to you about you know consent and safe words and like what their policies are about, what types of play you can do, and so on and so forth and I have done those before and the people who do them they oftentimes tend to be more like extroverted, polyamorous, like very sexual people that's part of what motivates them to be like volunteering people and organizers is they want, it's just part of what gives them energy and they will talk about BDSM in a way where it's about like sex and meeting hot people and doing hot things with hot people and it's like I don't care I can't even tell if somebody's hot or not like this is useless information to me
(Sarah and Kayla laughing)
EVIE: I totally don't understand and and that I have found is like do we really in order to communicate this information about like safety do we have to include like this particular type of language? Probably not but you know it's somebody's personal experience, and they're volunteering so I can't really knock a volunteer too much, but there is a big event that's going to happen in texas and I want to say it's called south plains leather fest is what it's called, and there was a person at the event that I was at who's giving a talk or a speech or something over the the formal dinner that was happening and they were talking about what they would be doing
for that event which is in the spring this coming year and
(50:00)
EVIE: I went to their website afterwards and on their about section they have like a whole big thing about like diversity and inclusion, and they specifically – and I've never seen this before – they specifically called out like you know, pansexual, polysexual, and asexual people. We made it on the list! I was like oh my gosh!
KAYLA: Yes!
EVIE: they want to make, they were like we are committed to like diversity and inclusion and making this a safe space for yada yada yada and like we weren't even the last one on the list we were like somewhere in the middle it was awesome. I was so excited to see that because I do think there is a genuine desire to make things welcoming for people especially because like the core of the BDSM community as a community, not just like individual people doing things in the bedroom, is very much based on like queer culture in a more general sense and like not wanting to erase people and there was a lot of erasure that happened of queer and kinky people during you know 70s and the 80s when people were trying to like sanitize what it meant to be gay because they were afraid they wouldn't get social acceptance from heterosexual folks if you know if people think the gays are too weird with their flogging and their crosses and they’re this and that we're never going to get mainstreamed and so we're going to rip people out of the books we're going to burn the magazines we're going to delete the you know newsletters
SARAH: the gays are god-fearing americans just like you
EVIE: yeah we want to have 2.5 kids using a surrogate because nobody here has a womb and you know we're gonna you know it's like I get it because there are like obviously there's always people who genuinely want that but like you know that's also not everyone and it's sad that we have to kind of do that level of erasure to sort of bid for acceptance because it shouldn't be we have to not scare people away in order to get acceptance, but that is unfortunately where we seem to be at yeah
SARAH: Kayla you're basically hosting this podcast by yourself. I'm just a sidekick. I'm just there I'm just here
KAYLA: You are. I feel like I asked all the questions that I had written down. Is there anything that we missed?
EVIE: I don't know. Audience beam into our heads right now
SARAH: From the future
EVIE: in the past what it is you want to learn about you didn't talk about yet
SARAH: yeah is there any I guess what are the most common and most annoying misconceptions you get from vanilla people from allos about your existence?
EVIE: my existence oh so many I think the main one we kind of already talked about which is like kink is inherently sexual like every year during pride month
KAYLA: Oh my god
EVIE: I have to log off the internet for a couple weeks because it's like
KAYLA: it got so bad this past year
EVIE: t's like the past two years it's been what is in the water?
SARAH: we shouldn't hate pride. we shouldn’t fear the month of June
EVIE: I shouldn't I shouldn't have to log off of social media for the month of June because I just don't want to be involved
KAYLA: so bad
EVIE: yeahthere's a lot. My the list of muted words I have on twitter gets very long every June you know and that is kind of the main one is like a kink is inherently sexual. I would say kind of the main one that's like a sticking point for a lot of people is like that BDSM is connected to some kind of like mental issue, or you do it because you're like deeply unhappy, or have like self-esteem problems, and one we do have some research about like mental health outcomes for people in the BDSM community and actually I think dominant women have better mental health outcomes than the national average. I think submissive men tend to fare slightly worse , but I think that's mostly because of the social stigma around being a man and being submissive, and like the constant fear of social rejection and difficulty finding romantic partners and then everyone else is kind of just like swimming around in the middle like sometimes a little bit better sometimes more or less the same as as you know everyone else who doesn't do kinks, so there's not really any evidence that BDSM is connected to worse mental health outcomes or is caused by, you know, abuse as a child or other trauma or self-hatred or or anything like that. It's just something that people are capable of enjoying, and sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't and unfortunately even in a lot of the the media that we have of kink, like even the good stuff right because like 50 Shades of Gray it's like, you know, a guy with like deep mommy problems like wanting to beat up a woman who looks like his deceased mother and it's like okay that's clearly no, even in like the usually the movie that people recommend for people that want to try BDSM or like are curious to know more about it is is called Secretary has Maggie Gyllenhaal in it it's very popular and even in that they kind of connect her interest in BDSM to like a history with self-harm because she starts the movie coming out of a mental hospital
(55:00)
EVIE: I want to think for like having had a suicide attempt or at least that's like implied by the movie don't know if they specifically state that's why but like the movie implies that
SARAH: gotta have a narrative, have an arc
EVIE: Gotta have a narrative
SARAH: and then it's like as someone who works in that shit that's all you hear about is people like what's the I they need to have an arc they need to have there used to be a reason for this and it's like no there does there doesn't always need to be a reason for why someone is the way they are
EVIE: yeah or the motivation for the plot can be something besides the BDSM, and the BDSM can be a secondary that can be the b plot and yeah so, for that you know mild spoilers from a movie from I want to say either 1999 or like 2001. In case anyone hasn't seen it yet they they want to go pause the podcast and go watch it real quick there is a moment in there where her boss who kind of ends up becoming her dominant partner more or less is like “you're not gonna do this to yourself anymore” and like verbally doms her out of self-harming again and I'm like “that doesn't happen” that's not, no.
KAYLA: That can't like it's like the it's like the meme that's like “my situationship looks at my scars and it's like oh never do that again for me” and it's like I don't know you and also what is this?
EVIE: yep it's exactly that yep it's you know
SARAH: I have not seen that meme
KAYLA: it's very like the one where it's like there's someone has a scar from like accidentally like having a kitchen accident and then someone's like “oh never do that again for me” and it's like I'm not doing anything for you anyway yeah
EVIE: I would say though actually for for everyone out there ace non-ace aro, all of that I would highly recommend, there's a new movie on netflix – I say new but it's like the past year which is like for BDSM and media is like it just came out –and it's called love and leashes. It's a korean –
SARAH: I know that one!
EVIE: yes I love that movie because even at the end they're like “oh I like going slow” and like there's no sex in the whole movie, there's no genital nudity. It's fantastic. I love that movie so much. It's not perfect, but it is accurate in like weird specific ways that I've not seen any other attempts at representation even get close to, and also it doesn't revolve around the two main characters wanting to fuck each other
KAYLA: Imagine
EVIE: which is like such a relief so yeah
SARAH: I remember when the trailer for that movie came out – I exist on k-pop twitter and so there's a lot of overlap with like k-drama twitter, like they they they kind of tend to go hand in hand so I saw a lot about it when like that the first trailer came out and I was a little wary of it because I was like “I don't know how actually accurate this is” but it's good to hear that like that
actually is pretty good representation
EVIE: no, it is. I know there was a lot of drama because like the lead actress is I think she was in Girls generation?
SARAH: wait she was? hold on
EVIE: I'm pretty sure because that was my – I'm a reformed k-popper.
KAYLA: (laughing) A reformed?
EVVIE: I was into it in college, but I kind of got out of it after I realized like how terrible the industry was and I'm kind of glad I’m not around for like current k-pop stan twitter. I was like there when they had forums for it. That was my like k-pop years
SARAH: yeah it's definitely you you have to find the right community, and I was lucky to have found the right community within
EVIE: the big thing when I was there it was like for the era of like super junior and like girl generation and like brown eyed girls that was like my
SARAH: Second gen
EVIE: Yeah
KAYLA: I have no idea what we're talking about
EVIE: it's okay
SARAH: it's completely irrelevant she just goes off on her little k-pop
tangents and I sit here, okay.
EVIE: well this is, this is I guess payback for like you get the rest of the episode and then like the last 10 minutes is just going to be k-pop
KAYLA: our listeners are very used to this train of events like yeah this is Sarah’s special interest in BTS is very well-known. Are you searching, Sarah?
SARAH: uh-huh
EVIE: did you find it? Did you get the dl? girls generation is she's the main like dominant female character in that movie
SARAH: oh I know why I couldn't find her on IMDB is because for some reason her picture on imdb is her and also a male actor and I could only see the male actor
KAYLA: so helpful
SARAH: wow I've learned so much
KAYLA: A good time
SARAH: anyway
(01:00:00)
EVIE: anyways, now you know. Yeah no it's actually, it's a fairly good movie. There are parts of it that are not accurate, and I think the parts of it that are not accurate are more for the sake of drama. Like at one point, they're doing research and the educational information that she is reading from basically says that like “it's impossible to have a BDSM relationship and a romantic relationship at the same time” which is like absolutely not true
SARAH: Yeah
EVIE: but it creates kind of the tension in the movies because like are they going to be able to date or not? It's like a big question. Are they just going to be like co-workers that do BDSM stuff together? And then
SARAH: Yeah
EVIE: at one point I think she uses a q-tip to clean up after they do a scene, which is like don't use q-tips on somebody's wounds. You're going to get little flakes of cotton in there. Just don't do it.
KAYLA: Good to know
EVIE: But those are like two things that really stick out in my mind as like, being bad but like such mild criticism for the most part, so if you don't have anything else to listen to or watch this coming weekend whenever this episode comes out, why not give it a listen? give it a watch have a little watch party
SARAH: and while you're at it listen to some girls generation
EVIE: yeah let's kick it back to some second generation
SARAH: hey hey they really they released a song this year and honestly it slaps
EVIE: I wonder if that is in any way connected to her having been in a movie that came out this year
SARAH: I don't know I have no idea it was like several months later who knows actually don't know if there was
EVIE: I think the I think it released in Korean netflix the same time it did in North America so I don't think there was a delay or anything between the two but yeah. I think that's really any other sort of like big misconceptions or things that like allo or like vanilla people get mixed up about with BDSM I mean I i think the other main thing I see people get confused about is like I don't know do people even actually like doing BDSM or are they doing it for, I don't know seeming edgy? And it's like yes people do actually enjoy doing BDSM
KAYLA: That would be like a huge commitment to the bit for like not liking it like that would be a very intense commitment
EVIE: yeah it would be that would be a long way to go for attention. I think maybe that happens because I guess it seeming ties into maybe sort of the other thing is like people on TikTok are like convinced that choking and like anal sex are BDSM and it's like no honey
KAYLA: sorry it's not KinkTok is just no
EVIE: I did a video that hasn't come out yet like reacting to like popular kinkToks. I'm not on TikTok at all I refuse, I'm not getting any more social media. I'm an old lady fair, no more
KAYLA: fair
EVIE: I'm done maybe the next one the next one is more writing focused not video focused I may end up adopting it but I remember reacting to some of those things a lot of people who are just like confused about like oh yeah I'm super into BDSM, I like choking and oh hair pulling – I think that's kind of a little bit more millennial, I feel like choking's the zoomer is very
KAYLA: (laughing) I feel like TikTok is full of choking. Everyone’s choking on there.
EVIE: okay so PSA don't randomly choke your partner. I will say there is a difference between what like choking gets – I'm not turning this into like a choking educational bit in like the last five minutes of a podcast because I don't have time
for this
SARAH: you have to do it right
EVIE: I have to do it right! like just don't, like a lot of people think choking is like, well they call it choking, but what they're really doing is they're just putting a hand around somebody's neck and like not really adding any pressure and that's different like if you just want to do it because like having a hand there feels comforting to you, like okay fine, do what you want, but when you get into like actually putting pressure around somebody's neck, that's a fairly serious thing to be doing even if you like you're both young, relatively healthy people, but just don't… I would not recommend randomly choking people because for me the problem is like people look at choking, and they do it because it's like edgy and cool and wow I saw it on TikTok right and they're kind of chasing after this ideal of like being, I don't know like sexually adventurous. I think sometimes there's pressure to be like, down for anything and like be a free spirit and be up for whatever and so people will be really open to do that, but I find that the kind of consent that gets used in that situation is like – I don't know what the term for it formally is – but I call it retroactive consent where it's like the consent might not be expressly given in the moment, but as long as it ends up feeling good it was consensual
(01:05:00)
EVIE: and if it doesn't go well then it wasn't consensual, which is like a very shitty way
to think about consent is like how good the thing was.
SARAH: Yeah
EVIE: so just don't I would not recommend randomly choking people or doing what you see on a TikTok for kink ever and like those activities can be done in a kink way, but to me they're so mainstream now that they're not any more kinky than like oral or anal sexes and especially with the way they get treated consent-wise and negotiation-wise and like people are just not informed about it like the research we have from universities and college students about this basically says that like most people are not aware of the risks of choking and the more somebody knows about the risks of choking the less likely they are to enjoy it because they know what the bad things are, so yeah.
SARAH: Understandable
EVIE: Choking not my personal favorite on the list of things to do and also like most of the time you don't see BDSM people doing it in a dungeon because
KAYLA: Lots of problems
EVIE: it's illegal in most places, or at least against the rules of the space, and so you can't even like, even if that's your kink you can't do it
SARAH: Yeah.
EVIE: in a BDSM space anyway, so sort of moot
SARAH: if you do it wrong, you can cause like permanent damage like it's not…
KAYLA: yeah not something you want to be messing around with.
EVIE: and also like you don't want to have something go wrong and then like you know sorry officer I promise it was totally consensual like don't, that's not going to work not, no definitely not
KAYLA: Wow that's so interesting I love having like an expert like take on just like the random
shit on TikTok. This is so interesting.
EVIE: yes
KAYLA: I love to be informed
EVIE: yes okay well now you're informed at least about the choking part. I can't speak to any other current TikTok trends
KAYLA: next time someone talks to me about choking I'm going to be like I talked to an expert about choking and you shouldn't be doing it
EVIE: or at least do it responsibly. Do it like my thing is always like you can do it but you should definitely talk about the risks beforehand and know what you're getting into and then if you decide you know what we're going to do it in this kind of safe way, I don't really have any health
concerns like I'm going to go for it, and just see what happens, like alright, but you got to know what you're getting into first. That's my line yeah
KAYLA: yeah makes sense. Alright, well… any – we already asked you if there's anything else I wanted to say any closing thoughts, Sarah?
SARAH: Me? My closing thoughts are I had a great time, and this was very informative
EVIE: yay
KAYLA: I also have that thought
SARAH: my closing thought is: do you think we're going to have people block us for this?
KAYLA: what was it the last episode we did it what I think we mentioned something about… I don't
SARAH: there was an episode we did recently where we mentioned kink
EVIE: Uh oh
SARAH: and someone got mad at us
KAYLA: no no the whole episode was about porn
SARAH: oh it was about porn
EVIE: Uh oh
KAYLA: Sarah has a friend that writes gay porn and someone got mad that as an aspec podcast we talked about porn and then they blocked us, and they were aspec and then they got mad and blocked us. anyway we'll see if anyone blocks us for this one
SARAH: I hope no one blocks us
KAYLA: I kind of hope they do you
SARAH: but, but we want them to be informed
EVIE: well they're blocking us now they've listened to the whole episode
SARAH: yeah that's true. Anyway
KAYLA: anyway
SARAH: Kayla, what's our poll for this week?
KAYLA: oh I want to know –
SARAH: will you block us?
KAYLA: will you block us? No I want to know like, are you a kinky aspec? I want to know like what percentage of our listeners are like, intersect in those communities
SARAH: yeah or even just like you're an aspec who's interested like
KAYLA: yeah
SARAH: who's interested in it even if you haven't necessarily
KAYLA: done it
SARAH: dove in, yeah
EVIE: I think it counts, yeah
SARAH: Nice, alright.
KAYLA: if Evie says it counts then it counts, sorry the expert said so
EVIE: sorry I make the rules
KAYLA: yeah it is law
SARAH: Alright Kayla, what is your beef and your juice?
KAYLA: this week my beef and my juice… my beef is that there's just so much to do it's the holiday time, it's the end of q4
SARAH: Ew
KAYLA: and yeah exactly, and everyone just keeps keeps wanting to get things done and have to travel and stuff and it's –
SARAH: it's the week between thanksgiving and christmas nothing is going to get done
KAYLA: that's what I'm saying! Anyway, that's my beef. My juice is that I got a paint by number recently. I've been doing a lot of painting by number. On sunday, this past sunday I sat in the same spot
(01:10:00)
KAYLA: for six hours without moving, and I listened to half of the Pride and Prejudice audiobook and did my paint by number, and if that isn't a mental illness, I don't know what is
EVIE: It’s beautiful
KAYLA: I told my therapist about it and she was like “I don't think that's a bad thing” and I was like no it's not, but like certainly that wasn't neurotypical behavior
EVIE: no most certainly not
KAYLA: that was like certainly that's not your average sunday activity
EVIE: it is if maybe you're like 60 I don't know like
KAYLA: but I had fun so that's all that matters
EVIE: exactly well we're here to have fun yeah
SARAH: okay my beef is all of it like why do I have to keep contributing to capitalism? like why do I, why do I like have to keep doing work? Why can't I just you know sit? My juice is at work I've started every day, I make one tiny post-it-sized cootie catcher. I've just been making one a day, and I'm just going to create a small army of cootie catchers today I made some tiny like paper snowflakes. I am busy at work and yet she has to do
KAYLA: today I got a text from Sarah that said “I did my daily cootie catcher too early in the workday and now I have nothing to look forward to for the rest of my day”
SARAH: which is why I started making paper snowflakes
KAYLA: so very important things going on in sarah's office
EVIE: it's like a juice but also a beef
SARAH: yeah exactly
KAYLA: a gravy
SARAH: a gravy. Evie, what is your beef and juice this week?
EVIE: my beef is people that don't know anything about BDSM saying that safe words are abusive and that aftercare is bad –
KAYLA: I saw your tweet about that, and I was like what are we doing?
EVIE: I don't know, what are we doing? like I don't know just those people I can't reach them I know they're too far gone I'm just like alright whoever is saying this you're probably a fucking TERF anyway, so I don't really care about your opinions, but I can talk to maybe some people that genuinely don't know,
SARAH: Yeah
EVIE: and maybe they'll like learn something. So I did a whole youtube video for that that came out today, which is november 30th
SARAH: you're doing the lord's work
kayla: yeah go watch it, it's great
EVIE: so I did that and then my juice for this week is it might snow. I'm excited about that. I'm like pumped for snow.
KAYLA: I've not gotten snow yet.
EVIE: Do you normally get snow?
SARAH: I was going to say, Kayla, it snowed when we were both in Michigan but you weren't in Michigan yet
KAYLA: I was in michigan
SARAH: it melted before you came
KAYLA: oh, yeah, I am in Boston, so there should be snow but…
SARAH: I'm in LA, so if we get snow that's concerning
KAYLA: yeah yeah that's not that's very exciting though.
SARAH: yeah that is
EVIE: I love snow
SARAH: great well Evie, where can the people of the internet find you? Aside from your home address, which we've already established you’re not giving out
EVIE: so I am on youtube as Evie lupine, I'm on twitter same name, I am on instagram technically I don't post almost anything on there except for stories because I do not want to lose my account because I've had it since the very beginning of my kink journey, so like if they delete it it would basically feel like they were deleting a scrapbook that I made, so I'm not on there that much, but those are basically where people can find me
KAYLA: and yeah as established no TikTok
EVIE: no no TikTok
KAYLA: no Evie will not have her data farmed
EVIE: I will not have my data farmed by the government, no thank you any more than what I already have. Also just like because I make YouTube videos the idea of making more video content it's like why would I do that? like no it's like if I had to edit a podcast, and then also make mini podcast episodes. Why would I do that to myself? it's just going to – I do not as we probably learned from me talking during this episode, I am not a succinct person – I can't it's hard I can never say anything that feels complete in three minutes, it's just not going happen no SARAH: and that's what podcasts and youtube videos are for.
KAYLA: Exactly.
EVIE: Yep
SARAH: Alright.
KAYLA: Everyone go follow Evie
SARAH: yes go follow Evie or else
EVIE: we'll come after you
SARAH: that's a threat yes
EVIE: well thank you so much for having me on this is awesome!
SARAH: so yeah if you want to find us we're @soundsfakepod if you want to find Evie she just said where to find her. We also have patreon, patreon.com/soundsfakepod. I will insert the patrons later. Hello it's me Sarah from the future, and before you say “Sarah your audio sounds different, are you not using your mic yet?” That's true, that's exactly true. Listen we all make choices. Okay. Our five dollar patrons who we are promoting this week are Mary S, Mattie, Mel McMeans, Melissa Kaufman, and Nick Ford. Our ten dollar patrons – I should probably check and make sure we don't have any new patrons, we don't okay wow you're just getting… this is raw sarah. Okay our ten dollar patrons who are promoting this week are potato who would like to promote potatoes, no sorry potater who'd like to promote potatoes PurpleHayes who would like to promote their friends’ podcast the host club, Rosie Costello who would like to promote the idea of not using inflatable holiday yard decorations because they do hurt a spook, and barefoot backpacker who would like to promote their podcast travel tales from beyond the brochure. Our other ten dollar patrons are SongOfStorm, the steve, Zirklteo, Arcnes, Alyson, Ari K, Benjamin Ybarra, Cass, CinnamonToastPunch, David Jay, David Nurse, Derek and Karissa, Elle Bitter, my Aunt Jeannie, Maggie Capalbo, Mattie, and Martin Chiesl. Our 15 dollar patrons are Andrew Hillum who would like to promote the Invisible Spectrum podcast, click4caroline who would like to promote ace of hearts, Dia Chappell would like to promote twitch.tv/melodydia, Hector Murillo would like to promote friends that are supportive, constructive, and help you grow as a better person. John I don't I still think John hasn't it… I know John if you've answered me yell at me. You would like to promote yelling at me. Keziah Root who would like to promote people who come into your life just for a small time but right when you need them, Nathaniel White nathanieljwhitedesigns.com, Kayla's Aunt Nina would like to promote katemaggartart.com, and Sara Jones who is @eternalloli everywhere. Our 20 dollar patrons are Sabrina Hauck. Merry christmas! Merry Christmas! and dragonfly who would like to promote… being forgiving of the fact that Sarah just didn't get her mic out for this, thanks. Bye. Wow thanks Sarah from the past, those were great patrons
KAYLA: future, Sarah from the future
SARAH: oh I'm Sarah from the past you're right I'm so sorry
KAYLA: (laughing) Sorry I’m getting confused
SARAH: I'm getting confused. Anyway thank you for listening, thank you again Evie so much for joining us. Everyone follow her or else. Tune in next sunday for more of us in your ears, but not Evie, but if you subscribe on youtube then yes
KAYLA: then yes
EVIE: yes then I’m in your ears all the time twice a week, it's true
KAYLA: and until next time take good care of your cows
SARAH: that's not the line but it was close
KAYLA: who cares it's over I'm not doing it again
SARAH: okay cool
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