Ep 333: Inclusive Sex Ed feat. Dee Whitnell

SARAH: Hey, what's up? Hello! Welcome to 'Sounds Fake But Okay,' a podcast where an aro-ace girl (I'm Sarah, that's me) 

KAYLA: And a bi demisexual girl (that's me, Kayla) 

DEE: And a non-binary trans queer individual (Dee, that's me) 

SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand. 

KAYLA: On today's episode, ‘Inclusive Sex Ed’

ALL: Sounds Fake But Okay.

SARAH: Welcome back to the pod. 

KAYLA: Hello!

SARAH: Hope everyone is doing good. We last podded two days ago, so things haven't changed much for us 

KAYLA: No 

SARAH: But I hope you're all doing good. 

KAYLA: And our computers try to stop us from podcasting, but they can’t.

SARAH: They always do. They always do. 

KAYLA: They can't stop us.

SARAH: We're gonna dive right in this week because we have a special guest this week. I just realized, Kayla, we're gonna have guests two weeks in a row. Professionals!

KAYLA: We're feeding the people, feeding the people. 

SARAH: But yes, we're very excited this week to talk to Dee Whitnell, not Whitnall, Whitnell

KAYLA: Not our American accents 

SARAH: Not our American accents. Who has written a delightful little book published by our publisher, JKP Publishers. Dee, welcome to the podcast. Do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself and your book?

DEE: Yes, thank you so much for having me. It has been a hot minute since I've been on a podcast, so this is really interesting. But yeah, I'm Dee. My pronouns are they/them. I'm non-binary, I'm trans, I'm queer. I've been in the sex education world now for several years after falling into a pit of despair during lockdown and questioning my gender, questioning my sexuality, and realizing I don't know what I'm doing, so I guess I'll go into teaching sex education. And through that, I ended up becoming a qualified sex educator. I've now written a book. I've been providing sex ed in schools, to organizations, to companies for quite some time now. And I do so many other things as well, like a journalist, content creator, I could go on and on, doing an intro of myself is the worst thing because I have about 20 titles, and everyone hates me because I have to have all of those titles in all of my intros.

KAYLA: I love it. I think it makes you sound very impressive and very busy, which I'm sure you are.

DEE: So busy. 

KAYLA: I can only imagine. And Dee's book, as you're listening to this, is still in pre-orders. I believe it's coming out February 21st?

SARAH: Hi, this is Sarah from the future. You will never guess, but we are bad at math and bad at calendars, so actually, by the time you're listening to this, the book is already out. So, whenever we're saying pre-order it, no, get it right now. You can get it right this very second. So yep, sorry that we can't numbers.

KAYLA: Is that when our book came out? 

SARAH: I have no fucking idea.

DEE: I think they all come out at similar times.

SARAH: It's whatever that Tuesday was.

KAYLA: Yeah.

SARAH: 2023. 

KAYLA: Anyway, we're book siblings anyway because we love JKP. So, Dee's book, 'Beyond Bananas and Condoms: The LGBTQIA+ Inclusive Sex Education You Never Got at School,' which we were just talking before we started recording about how the way Americans say condoms and British people say condoms is different, and I had not even thought about that. So, I feel like the title probably sounds even fancier in a British accent.

SARAH: To us at least.

DEE: I love the way you say it, but when I say it, I think, yeah, being dyslexic as well and trying to hear different accents, it's just, it's entertaining. But for those who want to see or hear the British version, I guess, it's 'Beyond Bananas and Condoms.' So, I guess it sounds a bit fancier.

SARAH: Yeah 

KAYLA: I just love the British 'bananas.' I have a friend who's very British, and she… this is, I'm sorry, we'll get… this is, I just have to speak about bananas for one second, and then we can get into it. She recently ran a marathon, and her parents are very British, and she got out of the water… oh no, it was like a triathlon, I don't know what people do. She got out of the water and was like dripping wet, and her parents were like, “Emily, your nana, you have to eat your nana.” And I just thought that was the silliest thing. Anyway, that's my banana story.

DEE: I love that though. 

SARAH: Thank you.

KAYLA: You're welcome. Okay, we can get into it. 

SARAH: All right, so I guess my first question is, why did you write this book? Like, how did you get into this space, and why was this book something that you wanted to do?

DEE: So, I originally got into the space, as I said, during lockdown. I was having so many questions about my gender, my sexuality. I was questioning a lot about masturbation at the time because that's a whole other thing that we would have to spend a whole hour talking about, about issues of whether I was allowed to masturbate solo or whether I had to ask permission from my partner. Don't worry, I'm no longer with that person anymore; we can move on from that. And it was during lockdown that I just was trying to look for resources and realized that everything was really straight and heterosexual and cisgender and white and able-bodied. And I'm nearly all of those things, but not all of those things. And so, I decided to look into learning more about sex education and eventually becoming a qualified sex educator. But it wasn't until I actually was in schools teaching that I realized that I was teaching resources that I didn't see myself in, and it felt fake. It felt untrue for me to be telling young people, “Oh yeah, women get periods,” but I'm not a woman, and I get a period. And I realized that there were no resources out there that were inclusive enough for me, that were resources that I would feel confident and comfortable enough sharing with young people, knowing that I'm providing them with exactly what they need. And then through further conversations with other adults, I realized that their sex ed was also terrible, that they didn't have any sort of representation in regards to their gender, their sexuality, their faith, being able-bodied or being neurodivergent. So, one day, I just decided to start writing it. It came after my master's dissertation, which also was on sex education, but more on the history of sex education. And again, it highlighted the fact that specifically within the UK, sex ed has been terrible for the queers, and it's getting worse for the queers currently. So, it kind of just… all of those things added up, and I decided to sit down and actually write it. And it took me quite a long time, not only just because being dyslexic and writing a book is hard, but because so much was happening in regards to sex education changing within the UK, and now we're seeing it change globally as well. And I did put something in the book saying that by the time it's in your hands, things may have changed. You know, definitions may have changed, topics and laws may have changed, but it's a good starting point. And I still hold that quite true that by the time it comes out, a lot has already changed within the UK and in the US. But I wanted it to be a one-stop shop for people to begin their journey of understanding, whether they're a young person, an adult, or a parent of a young person, which is another audience that I think is really being left out of the conversations when it comes to sex education because they don't know what they're doing. 

SARAH: Yeah, absolutely. That also brings me to another one of my questions, which was, you know, when you were writing this book, who did you have in mind as who you were addressing it to? Like, who is the reader that you most want to read this book?

DEE: There's definitely a mixture of readers, which, you know, being non-binary, I can't make my mind up for one second, so I've got multiple audiences. One of them being teachers like myself who, you know, have to fight schools to allow them to use certain resources. Parents who maybe have queer kids or trans kids who don't have sex ed themselves, and they're scared, and they don't know, and schools are telling them one thing, and they're young people coming home learning something that they don't know about, and they feel intimidated. But mostly, it's just for anyone who wants to learn more about sex who, you know, they want to see themselves represented in sex education. They're individuals that are shy and embarrassed about saying words, that get giggly when they think about, you know, saying the word penis or saying the word vulva or vagina. I wanted to just kind of make sure it was for everybody, but also for young people as well. And my book is 16+, which is a very specific age bracket for various reasons within the UK. But yeah, it's very much for all people. So yeah, sorry, I can't give you a specific audience. I probably won't give you a specific answer at all this whole podcast.

SARAH: No, that's okay, because when people will always ask us about our book, like, who did you write it for? It's like, uh, anyone who wants to read it. 

DEE: Yeah. 

KAYLA: Please read it. 

DEE: There are so many people it can touch. Like, I think confining it to one audience is dangerous because you leave out so many other people. And particularly topics when it comes to sex education and gender and identity, you can't fit everybody into specific boxes. So, I just kind of threw it all out there and said, if you like something, that's great. 

SARAH: All this to say, sorry for asking a question which I personally hate getting asked.

DEE: I get you.

KAYLA: I think your answer is, it's so true though, because like, as I was reading the book, I could tell that, or at least I felt like if I was a young person, it would still be very accessible to me. It wasn't overly academic, there weren't any, like, huge words, it wasn't confusing. So, I felt like as a young person, I would be able to understand it. 

[00:10:00]

KAYLA: I also felt like as an adult who grew up in a very conservative town, who got… I don't remember my sex ed. Like, I don't know if I either blocked it out or it was truly that bad that there was nothing to remember. So, as I was reading it, there were things that I was learning too, of like, oh, that would have been nice to know. Or like, things that I recognized as I had to go on the internet and search for this myself. Or I spent years not knowing this, thinking something was wrong with me, only to learn later, like, oh, it's actually fine. So, I mean, I think it definitely is great for all audiences. And it's also just the topic of parents too. That's something that has always been in the back of my mind as, like, I just had a nephew that was born. If I ever have kids, like, that's definitely something I've thought about is, like, how do you teach kids stuff? Like, no one tells you what to do with this. And so, I think it's a great resource for all of that.

DEE: Yeah, definitely. When it comes to parents, I think since being a teacher and working in that space, particularly with disabled and neurodivergent students, you know, parents are the first source, the first port of call for education. They should be the first educator of the young person. And it's so important that they work with schools, organizations, other parents to make sure that their young people are getting the best of kind of every world that they can. They can have academic insight from schools. They can have personal insight from their parents. And for many of us, we don't get that. And then for some of us, we're really lucky, and we get parents that are open about sex and open about all these topics. I've always said that eventually, if I become a parent, which, you know, being trans and being with someone who's trans, that's going to be a whole long journey itself. But when and if I do have kids, I know I'm going to be the parent that's like, the condoms are over here, tell me you want this. I'll buy you your first sex toy. Like, I will be so open to the point that my kids will go to school and be like, “oh my God, you're embarrassing me.” When I'm asking questions about sex ed and everyone just wants to know what trip they're going on this year. Like, for me, it's such an important part of my identity, my work, my lifestyle, and it would be just as important in my parenting setting as well. And it's a topic that I think so many parents are terrified of because their sex ed was terrible, and their parents were also terrible at talking about sex ed, so it continues. So, I want to break that spell.

KAYLA: Yeah, absolutely. Going back to kind of the basics of what this book is about and just kind of some, like, laying the groundwork of if people are interested in this book, kind of what it's going to teach them. Could you kind of explain the difference between maybe your average sex ed, which probably isn't great, and what you call inclusive sex ed, kind of what this book revolves around?

DEE: Of course. So average sex ed is typically heterosexual, aka straight narratives. It's able-bodied, it's representative, the most basic way I can put it is, penis goes into a vagina, you have a baby, well done. Consent, yes or no, that's it. And relationships, this is healthy, this is not. And also, porn, don't look at it, don't go anywhere near it. That's basically what sex ed is, average sex education, I would say. Whereas inclusive sex education provides young people with learning tools to be able to navigate these spaces safely and to experiment in these spaces safely, to see themselves in resources. So, knowing that sex isn't just a penis and a vagina, it isn't just condoms, it isn't just pregnancies, but also family types aren't just mum and dad and a few siblings. They're mum and mum, or maybe they're step-mum, and there's so many different family dynamics there as well. It's also inclusive for people who are like me, who are neurodivergent; people like my partner, who has dysphoria, also like me, I forgot I was trans for a moment, we both have dysphoria. But people who have dysphoria, people who, you know, when they're going through puberty, they may not have… of course, most people go through puberty, and they hate their body, or they're uncomfortable in their body. But for trans people, non-binary folk, there's another layer to it. So, it's just about furthering that information so that young people are able to know that they aren't this mysterious being; they're not completely out there or random or not, you know, normal. These are things that happen to most people, but for some reason, the conversation around sex education has been so concise to this one kind of narrative and viewpoint, when in reality, there are so many more narratives. And as I said in my book, I also wasn't able to provide as much as I would have wanted on disabled sex and neurodivergent sex and so many other topics because, one, word count; but two, I also don't fit into some of those categories. So, it's so important that, you know, people know that this book is a stepping stone, and that if you want to see yourself in these sex education resources and you don't find yourself in them, make them, do them. And that's something I'm huge about as well, is saying if you want to be part of the activist space, you want to be an advocate, do it, go and do it, create. Because I created something because I didn't see myself in it, and I didn't want to teach that to my pupils. So, if you're the same, go off and do that as well.

KAYLA: Yeah, I loved how all-encompassing the book was of topics even beyond just sex. I was so happy to see chapters about relationship dynamics, about specifically what an unhealthy relationship is. You have a chapter on kind of all things internet: being safe on the internet, about porn, about sex toys, just things that I cannot fathom. 

SARAH: About support for what to do if someone comes out to you. Like, there's all sorts of stuff in there.

KAYLA: Yeah, I was like, that teaches you how to, like, what to do if you get broken up with. I was like, this is just stuff that no one teaches you when you're young, and you end up just, like, fucking up. You get in unsafe relationships. Like, it's just… I don't understand why they don't teach us this. So, I was just… I was really, really happy to see that because, again, it's just something that I completely wish I had when I was younger. I think it would have saved a lot of strife, probably.

SARAH: Kayla, it's because sex is bad, and you will get pregnant and die.

KAYLA: Yep, that's true. Must be abstinent, or else.

SARAH: Exactly. You also talk a lot about your own personal experience in this book. Was that, like, an intentional choice, or was that something that just kind of came along with it as you were working on it?

DEE: It's definitely something that I always had at the center of my book. Since I became an educator, a content creator, I've, you know, shared too much on the internet and too much with individuals in, you know, business settings and, you know, conversations around the dinner table. But I've always been open, and there's a part in the book, I believe… I can't even remember now, where I talk about how when I was at school, for some reason, I became this person that everyone came to about sex, even though I hadn't had sex yet, or I had just begun having sex. And I always just seemed to attach people; people just gravitated towards me. Maybe just because I looked like a little weirdo who was like, “I know about periods, come over here and talk to me.” But I just seemed to be the person that everyone would come to, and I'm just so open about it. Like, I talk about sex; I talk about my mum having sex with my dad at the dinner table. And I know you're putting that face, for everyone who's listening, you can't see the face that Sarah is putting. 

KAYLA: Sarah hates it, Sarah hates it. 

DEE: But for me, I'm so comfortable in talking about sex because, to me, it's everyday language. We should talk about it. Of course, we should giggle, we should laugh, we should get embarrassed because these are words and phrases and things that can be private and can be a bit, you know, awkward and embarrassing. But I've just always been so open about it that when I was talking about certain topics, I had to talk about myself because not only does it help further the understanding to have an example, particularly when it comes to being queer and being trans, being non-binary, but also to show people that you should say these words; you should talk about this openly, of course, in certain contexts and settings. But that was the whole premise of the book, was to talk about sex without using metaphors or hidden meanings because it's life-saving when we talk about sex using accurate terms. And I think everybody should get more comfortable talking about sex, so I just wanted to kind of share and bare my all to make people feel more comfortable talking about their own sex lives and identity.

SARAH: Yeah, there are a few times in the book where you say, here are these things I'm talking about; it's okay if they make you feel a little bit uncomfortable. Like, that's a completely normal reaction. And I was like, “you know, I'm an adult; I'm fine.” And then I was like, “no, wait, fuck, shit.”

DEE: It's just such a common experience, I think, for all people. But then again, since going into schools more recently, within the last few years, young people are so much more confident talking about sex and gender and identity, and they don't get shy. Of course, some of them do, but most of them don't. I think it's definitely a generational thing where people who were told, you know, have sex, you'll die, you'll get pregnant, all of that kind of stuff, we're the ones that are very timid talking about it. But young people are so open about sex, and I think… I applaud them. I love it. I love going in and talking about sex or gender or consent to young people because they're on it. They know more than me. I've learned more from young people that I've taught than from adults that I've paid to teach me at university. So, yeah. And I think it's important that we giggle and we laugh because these words can be funny, and sex should be fun, and it should be light-hearted, even though we do have topics that need a more serious tone. Having a little giggle is completely fine.

SARAH: And there are sections of the book where you, like, you just kind of list off, like, slang terms that might be used for different things. And as an American reading that, I was reminded of how silly some of the British slang terms are that you guys use that we don't. And I was like, right, fanny, mm-hmm.

[00:20:00]

DEE: It is a really interesting one, isn't it? And it's fascinating because as I said, by the time the book comes out, there'll be 20 new words, 20 new phrases for all of those different body parts and sexual acts. And I remember when I was teaching at school, we would have to really keep on top of it because if a pupil mentioned something, you'd have to be able to go, "Ooh, safeguarding," or, "Ooh, I should tell them not to use this word." And I think it's important that you kind of know the different slang terms but, again, be able to say the correct anatomy terms and not using metaphors because metaphors can muddy our understanding of topics. And as I said, in some situations, it's life-saving that you give people the accurate definitions or events that occurred. So, using slang terms can actually complicate things and can, you know, detriment further inquiries or things that have to happen following maybe an incident that has happened.

SARAH: What do you find are the most common questions that you get from your students, or else the most memorable ones?

DEE: Great question. One comes to mind that I always bring up because it fascinates me, and it's another example of why… and I don't know if this happens in America at the moment or historically, but we in the UK tend to separate our class by sex, which, as a non-binary person, it's a whole mess. I don't agree with it. However, there are some instances where sometimes it's better to separate, but most of the time, I think it's better to have everyone in the classroom. Anyway, I was teaching an all-girl and I put quotation marks because there were some trans individuals in that room, some non-binary individuals, so I knew that they weren't all girls but quote-unquote girls' class, and one of them asked me why boys have wet dreams and why do they get blue balls. And they wanted to learn more about the boys' experiences than their own experiences. And then when I would teach the boys, they would ask similar things like, "Why do girls get so angry on their period? Does it hurt that much?" And it's because they want to know, and that I find is so fascinating because that shows that they're able to be in the room with other people and to understand their experiences. And it's vital to understand other people's experiences because one day, those people may date someone of the opposite gender who they need to know why, you know, X, Y, Z happens, or they're a parent, and they may need to know how to talk about a topic with their young person who is the opposite gender to them. So, some of those questions were my favorite, definitely, you know. Another one that comes to mind as well is, "Why do people love bum sex?" And when a student wrote that anonymously on a piece of paper, we collected them, and I gave them to a teacher who was supporting me. And she was reading them out, and she read it out, and she went red, and she looked at me, and I looked at her, and I said, "I've got this, don't worry," because I could tell she was like, "What do I do? How do I explain this?" That was a great question, and I think a lot of the questions that are my favorite relate to bum sex or wet dreams or, "Why does the other sex do this thing? I don't get it." And I'm there too; I want to know why, you know, AFABs… I want to know why AMABs do a certain thing compared to AFABs. I want to know; it's interesting. 

KAYLA: I honestly think that was some of the most informational stuff in the book for me, was the stuff about people with penises because… and if you have listened to every episode of the show, you know that Sarah and I have had so many questions for penis-havers over the years. Like we have called friends, we have texted people, I'll have my boyfriend come in sometimes and be like, "What…" Like we made him come in to talk to us about urinals the other day, he was not having it. But they just don't… yeah, because they separate you often for sex ed, I think there is such a stigma about asking, and it's like, I just want to know what y'all are doing in there. Like, what's going on? 

SARAH: I don't get it. Yeah, my greatest fear is that… I don't plan on having kids, but my greatest fear is that someone I'm close to will have a child that is assigned male, and I'm like, I don't know what to do with this. Something that I literally texted Kayla as I was reading, I found it absolutely hilarious that the official term for a wet dream is a nocturnal emission, I think that is remarkable. It's my favorite fact. 

DEE: I love that. I love that. And to be honest, some of my favorite facts are also about AMAB bodies because I don't get them, but also about trans individuals' bodies and how they go through different transitions and different stages of their journeys. For example, my boyfriend is a trans man, and I'm fascinated by everything he experiences and how he is different from me and how he fits into all of this. And I remember doing a lot of the research on trans bodies and the second puberty for trans people, and I was so fascinated. And that's something that you would not ever get taught in school, never. They would not touch that at all. So, to be able to do my own research and then put that in a book for 16+ people who may begin their gender journey was something that I was so happy to experience. And I'm learning every day since being with my trans partner. And so, yeah, there's definitely moments in the book that I mention him as well, and I had to get him to sign a little piece of paper, I can't remember what it's called now.

KAYLA: Oh, yes, we had many of those pieces of paper.

DEE: Yeah, to say that he was okay with it. He was like, "What exactly did you write?" And I was like, "Here, I'll show you." And he was like, "Oh, okay." And I was like, "Not in depth; I know you want your privacy, but a little bit in depth."

SARAH: Yeah

KAYLA: Yeah, and I also think it was very helpful. I definitely want to kind of transition us, punch, into talking about how much the book goes into trans and non-binary matters because that was another aspect of the book that, as a cis person, I found so, so important because it's such a big thing in society now where there's all this mystery around trans people. There's all this fear around what does it mean to medically transition or to use hormones, and they just don't teach you that. And it's also, I think, sometimes really tough to know how to bring those conversations up or how to ask the questions about, you know, what does a medical transition look like? Why would someone do that? Um, so as a cis person, I found that so, so helpful to just get a baseline understanding of, kind of, what does this look like? You know, what is the process? Just to understand, you know, what the people around me could be going through. 

DEE: Yeah, and that was one of the main reasons because, originally, writing this book, I was like, I want it to be trans and non-binary specific but also queer and also cisgender. I wanted to make sure that anyone could read it and still pick information up, but I did want to focus on trans and non-binary people. Following my master's dissertation on queer inclusion and trans inclusion in sex ed, you know, we in the UK, trans people weren't mentioned in sex education until 2010, and now we're going through another gender, another sex education guidance review, and by the looks of it, trans people will again be erased. And we're seeing so many, you know, stories of trans young people being told they can't use certain bathrooms in schools, they can't wear certain uniforms, you know, they can't be addressed by the pronouns that they wish to be addressed by. And all of that comes from, you know, misunderstanding or the lack of knowledge. And one of my favorite things to do when I do go in to talk with organizations or cis people mostly is to say that I am the one trans person that you can ask your awkward question to, and I will answer it the best I can. Obviously, I don't have all trans experiences under my belt, but I have an understanding. And, you know, we're not born with the knowledge that we have today; we all learn it in some way. But for some cis people, they don't get that opportunity, and they get to a point where they are scared by the fact that they don't understand what's going on around them, or they don't know who to reach out to. And, you know, they're getting bombarded by certain, you know, articles and individuals and algorithms. And, you know, I respect it when cis people come to me and they ask me a question that they're really embarrassed to ask because it shows that they want to learn. And that's all I really care about, is people trying to understand other people's experiences. And, you know, I could have gone on for so much longer in my book writing about the trans experience, writing about non-binary experiences, but there's not a lot out there for us, about us. So maybe that's a second book; I don't know. 

SARAH: Yeah, you know, I think related to that, it's so exciting, obviously, for us to see acespec identities mentioned and discussed in the context of sex education. I mean, I don't want to ask, like, why did you include it? Because it's a thing that needs to be understood and talked about. Kayla, what's my question that I'm asking? 

KAYLA: I don't even know if I have a question. I just want to, like, take a moment to just be like, there's a sex ed book out there that's like, here are what ace and aro identities are. And I think that is so, so important because I know we've had so many listeners tell us about their own sex ed experiences and say, like, none of it made any sense to me. These people in my class kept telling me that I was going to want sex so bad and that it was dangerous, and I was going to have these urges, and I was going to be so sexually attracted to people, and it was going to cause all these problems. And they were like, “well, I am not experiencing that. I do not have these urges. I am not attracted to people, and so I feel like something is very, very wrong because this professional just told me that that should be happening.” So, I just, like, I was just so, so excited to see that in there because I think it's so important. 

[00:30:00]

DEE: What's fascinating is that I didn't ever think to not include ace people. Like, it wasn't even like, oh, I'll include everyone. Oh, I shouldn't include ace, or oh… it was just part of the journey of, okay, let's go through all of these experiences. Oh, what about the people who don't want sex? And for me as well, from my experience of teaching in schools, I've had young people come up to me or ask an anonymous question, pieces of paper, like, why don't I want to have sex? Why does sex scare me? Why do I sometimes fancy people but sometimes don't? And I think it's, you know, ace people belong in sex education. They belong to be represented. Just because they may not want to have sex, either right now or forever or, you know, varying periods, whether they want to be with individuals romantically or whether they don't, they deserve sex education like everybody else. It's a human right, and every identity deserves representation. And, of course, again, I said in the book, I'm not an ace individual, so I can't explore the depths of that as much as I wish I could. But to just be able to mention them and to be able to, you know, provide that understanding and, you know, for people, like, in this moment right now, if you used to say, that's amazing that you included it. And I was like, oh, I didn't even realize that was amazing because, to me, ace people are part of sex education. They should be. They've always been here. But I guess it's also the same with intersex people, where their experiences are just not mentioned at all. And, you know, they're told, oh, go to this specific intersex resource or this specific book or creator. But they should just be part of the curriculum. They should be part of a sex ed book just like everybody else. So, yeah, I'm glad that resonated. I just… you were always part of it, so.

SARAH: Thank you.

KAYLA: I love to hear that, and I also loved… I don't think that you probably wrote this like specifically for acespec people, but in your chapters about queer identities, I think it was maybe surrounding coming out or just kind of your sexuality chapters. It was talking about misunderstandings and hate that can sometimes happen within the queer community and how we need to not be exclusionary, how we need to support everyone within the community. And I know that's something that acespec people struggle with a lot, so I was also… and I know a lot of queer communities do; I know there's, you know, biphobia, panphobia, but I was just really excited to see that too, of just a moment to be like, “Hey, y'all, cut that the fuck out. Stop being stinky.”

DEE: Last year, I hadn't really experienced the infighting to such a degree until last year, until I started to, you know, really… I've been out as non-binary for quite a while now, but within the last few years, I've been exploring my expression quite a fair bit. And I've been using, you know, binding methods; then one day, I have hair extensions in and, you know, flip-floppy and through that kind of exploration, I realized… and not everybody does, but I'm non-binary, and I'm also trans. And when I kind of shared that with my following, my following obviously were like, “We love you. Thank you so much for this. We love your journey.” But I had a lot of infighting and a lot of pushback from trans people who told me I wasn't allowed to be non-binary and trans, and it really confused me. And ever since then I've, you know, been in the thick of it, of infighting, of other people telling me that I can't be this one thing because I'm this, or if you describe your experience as this, you're actually this. And it's something that I did want to take a moment to focus on when it comes to the coming out chapter and to the section that you're specifically referencing, because it's so just soul-destroying to be attacked by your own community or members in the wider community and to be told that you're not something or that you are something and to have a label forced on you. And as someone who has always struggled with labels, I really struggled with the infighting of people telling me what I can and can't do. And even the other day, I had someone tell me, like, “Oh, you can't write a sex ed book as a non-binary person because you don't understand your own gender.” 

KAYLA: Hello! Hello!

DEE: Like I have comments like these every day. Every day. I have…

SARAH: Also, I would argue, as a non-binary person, you understand your gender more than most people do. You've thought about it more than most people do. 

DEE: I've had the time; I've had the time to think about it. But it's just one of those things that, for some reason, people just want to put you in a specific box. And I remember, I'm friends with this person now, so I know I can mention this, but I had a friend who is a trans TikToker, and he made a video one day saying, “non-binary people aren't real. They're taking trans identities away. They're jumping on the bandwagon.” It was a whole thing. So, I stitched it and just said, “Hey, what the fuck are you talking about? Here's the history of non-binary and trans, and here is how we align.” And he removed his video and said sorry, and now we're friends. And that's all it takes, is people to learn and to grow and to understand. And again, it was just a case of him not understanding what non-binary meant and then him feeling afraid and unsure, and it was just a whole complicated thing. But that is something that happens to me and something that I'm jumping into people's comments on a daily basis to be like, “Hey, I'm here.” Especially when I'm fem-presenting, people are like, “You're not non-binary anymore, are you?” And I'm like, “What changed? My hair length? Really?” But it's something that I think we need to talk more about, especially… well, in my opinion, the attacks on non-binary people by the trans and wider queer community. That's something I personally experience quite a bit, but also the attacks on trans women, specifically ace individuals, intersex individuals. They're the kind of groups that are really facing the infighting at the minute, and the groups that, you know, if you're a supporter of those groups, you need to stand up and tell the other queers that they are not right, basically.

SARAH: Yeah, I related to that in the book. I really appreciated how… because you talk about the split model of attraction…

KAYLA: I loved that.

SARAH: About how romantic and sexual orientation can differ, and you didn't talk about it in saying, “Hello, this is the split model of attraction,” but you discussed it. And I really appreciated… this may seem like such a minor thing, I really appreciated how you did not talk about it in the asexuality section. You talked about it in just a different section a little bit later and… because I think the split model being so closely intertwined with acespec-ness in the general zeitgeist is actually quite often harmful because it leads to people thinking that it only applies to acespec people, which it doesn't, as we know. And so, I appreciate that you didn't chain it to asexuality and that it's just a thing in and of itself. Again, I don't think I have a question here; this is just me just saying, thanks. 

KAYLA: Just excited.

DEE: No, I love that. I think one of the reasons I included it in the section is because I personally have differing romantic and sexual feelings as a queer person, and it's something that I've really had to explore myself personally, but also within teaching and how to describe it and explain it. Um, so of course it was going to be part of, you know, average conversation. And that's what I wanted the whole book to be of, you don't have to, you know, wait until a trans, you know, the trans chapter to talk about trans issues. It has to be throughout, seamless, because that's what's important when it comes to inclusive sex ed and inclusive education in general, is that we don't go, “Hey, you've just got one special hour here, well done. Whoa!” That it's part of the curriculum or it's part of the book or resource at every given point, and that you don't have to wait or skip to a chapter to read something because it's… unless it's obviously specific to the chapter, but when it comes to experiences of individuals, it should be fluid throughout. And I try my best to make sure that it's fluid throughout in my book. There might be moments where I say we have to talk about trans situation or issue here or a queer issue here, but mostly I just want to make sure that everybody could read through it and be like, “Oh, that's me. Oh, that's not me, but that's still fun, and I'll read through it.” Um, yeah, it's just, I think for me, it was just a general part of inclusive sex ed that I'm used to. And it's really interesting to hear how reading it as part of the community and from not being from, like, the sex ed kind of background, how it kind of is read. It's fascinating. 

SARAH: Yeah, and it's important as well to not cordon off certain groups to only this chapter because, as you said, these people, they exist in the world, they exist in all aspects of the world. And if you push them into a specific corner, sure, you may have represented them in this resource, but you didn't necessarily make them feel welcome or feel normal or feel like they're a part of the real audience. So, it's so important to kind of be inclusive throughout, which is… I'm so glad you do, even though it should be the bare minimum, but here we are.

DEE: It should be, but we're still fighting for it every day. 

KAYLA: So, you talked earlier about kind of the state of sex ed in the UK and how it's going through some changes right now. Obviously, here in the US, things are changing for the worse. So, I know that this is like a big question to ask, so maybe it's just kind of more of like a general conversation starter, but for people who are uncertain about the future, specifically around sex ed, about education, about certain topics, do you have any advice on how to kind of take that education into your own hands? Certain resources, ways that you can kind of, like, help or kind of get involved the way you are? 

[00:40:00]

DEE: I think my first kind of point to answering that huge question, thanks.

KAYLA: Sorry. 

DEE: Would be community and using one another and knowing that you're not going to hold all the information yourself, and that it's so important that you talk to a trans person, a queer person, an acespec person, an intersex person, because, you know, it's so important that our voices are all heard. And the best way to understand somebody's experience and the best way to educate yourself is to meet these people and talk with them. So, if you do have a group of people that you know are from all different walks of life, have a conversation with them, bring them in, ask them, you know, questions. I think that is a great thing to do right now, particularly at a time where community is something that we all need, particularly chosen family, where, you know, we may not be able to have these conversations with people within our own homes. And having safe people that you can go to and that you can talk to is so important. And kind of collecting people that you can use as your own, you know, information banks is always a great idea. It's so scary right now what is happening to sex education across the globe. Kind of to pivot slightly, but on Instagram, for example, with the whole Meta fuck that was the update. You're now seeing so many sex educators being taken down or their content being flagged. For example, my bio is flagged just because I have the word 'non-binary' and 'trans kid' in it, which is bizarre to me. But that means that educators like myself are being pushed out of certain platforms. So, if you do want to, you know, access these individuals, check out what kind of other platforms that they have. Do they have a Substack? Do they have an email? Do they have a book? Do they have a resource that you can download? Is there a way you can communicate with them? Because unfortunately, we're being pushed off of many platforms right now. So, we're all trying to find a platform that will allow us to create and allow us to do so without being censored. So definitely, you know, check out different platforms of different creators and creatives and see where they are. Find them, because we are going to places. We're just having to be secret or at least, you know, censor ourselves on some platforms over others. And then finally, even though it's a huge… I'm like, my brain is going, I'm like, “Oh, there are so many things you could say here, Dee.” But it's just so… an intense question when it's the world right now. One thing I would also say that I really wanted to do with my book was to make it as non-queer presenting as possible, so that if somebody did have it in their room, it wouldn't flag as something that could potentially cause issues. Of course, it has the words 'condoms' on it, but it's not as obvious as a queer flag. So, I think obtaining books that have discrete covers or books that you can remove the cover from and keep somewhere safe is also a really good suggestion. If, for example, you have a library or you work with young people, see if you can get a book in there, depending on what your state, what your school says. But yeah, that was… my brain is still going, and there's so much I could say, but it's just such a daunting time, and things are changing every second of every day in the UK and also in the US. So, I could say this, and tomorrow it could all be, you know, completely wrong. I don't know what is going to happen to my book in the US. That's going to be a fun conversation. Would it get banned? Probably. Why? Who knows? But yeah, it's basically, in short summary: community, collect your information, look at other platforms that people are creating on because they're moving away from Instagram.

SARAH: Yeah, I think part of the problem too with censorship, is that you have these creators who are finding creative ways to get around the censorship. But if you're not in the in-group, if you don't know what terms and things they're saying to replace certain words that are getting censored, then if you're looking up resources, you won't find them because you don't know the censor-proof words to be searching to find information. And it's just… it's all fucked. 

DEE: Yeah, and Meta is now, you know, really cracking down on even the metaphors that we're using. So now we're having to add even more metaphors to be able to talk about sex, and it's just going to get confusing. And for individuals like myself with dyslexia, like, I need words to be just words. I don't like metaphors; I need it to be straightforward. Um, but also, if a young person went to a school to report something, they can't use a metaphor because the teacher might not know what they mean. Um, so it is important that we use the correct language. And for me, for example, I've started to transition over to Substack to be able to say words for exactly what they are, but also to talk about trans issues without the bombardment of hate and also the censoring and all of that stuff. But that's a slow process. Um, Bluesky, not shouting it out, but also shouting it out, is another platform that loads of queers are going to, to be able to talk about things openly and honestly without having to use metaphors. But yeah, it's… I want to sound more cheery about creating content online, but I can't because of all the changes. And for example, even with my book, my, you know, my book promo stuff, every single book promo post I've had has been flagged, and it can't be shared with any followers. 

KAYLA: Wow.

DEE: So

SARAH: Ugh 

DEE: Yeah. 

KAYLA: Yeah. Apologies for, well, the world, and also such a big question. Obviously, no one person is gonna have any sort of answers right now, but…

SARAH: Dee, solve it, fix it. 

DEE: I know. 

KAYLA: Anyone, please, anyone. 

DEE: My mind was blowing through the roof, I was like, “Oh my God, if I don't say the perfect thing right now, this…” 

KAYLA: My gosh, no. 

DEE: I'm gonna cause a war of some sort. 

SARAH: I mean, we're gonna be getting into all sorts of wars regardless of what you do, so.

DEE: Yeah. 

SARAH: The other thing that I was gonna say is just like a personal side note on a footnote in your book…

KAYLA: Love a footnote, for me, love a footnote. 

SARAH: Love a footnote. Um, we had so many in our book. Um, but I found it really interesting that you mentioned your partner's relationship with passing. Passing as in the sense of like straight passing, cis passing, not like dying. Um, but… 

DEE: He's alive and well. 

SARAH: Yeah, alive and well. Um, because I had never considered before that you might want to be, for example, trans man passing but not cis man passing. But as soon as I read it, I was like, “Oh, of course, I understand exactly.” And it reminded me of my own experience of gender, which I've described on this podcast before, but I think it was this phrasing that kind of…

KAYLA: We’re working on it.

SARAH: We're working on it. Uh, but I think it was that phrasing that helped me kind of crystallize it, which is that within queer communities, I want people to understand that my relationship with gender, my gender isn't cut and dry. But outside of queer communities, it's not so important to me that I want to bring attention to it. Like, I don't feel so strongly that I want to have a conversation about it with cishet people, and I don't have an issue with cishet people perceiving me as a cis woman. And so, like, it's almost like code-switching, where like the gender expression I have and the terms I use don't necessarily change, but the way I wish to be perceived by people in queer versus non-queer spaces is a little bit different. And as I was reading, I was just like, “Oh, I get that.” So, thanks for that. Thank your partner, I guess.

DEE: I heard it. It's something that I didn't even really consider until, you know, we got together and we were having conversations, sharing what our dysphoria looks like, what kind of triggers us, because we have some similar dysphoria triggers, some non-similar. We have some things that make us feel euphoric, and then for the other person it makes you feel dysphoric. And that also really helped me to understand my transness and how it wasn't as cookie-cutter as, you know, the trans experience, and how, you know, something that makes me feel good makes him feel bad and vice versa, like how complicated it all is. And it is complicated. Being trans is complicated, and understanding being trans is complicated. So being two trans people in a relationship, trying to understand yourself and each other, complicated. But I remember having a conversation with him about his expression and him just saying, like, “I don't want people to see me as a cis man. I want people to know that I'm a trans man.” And at the time, I was like, “I want to know the nuance of that.” And then I eventually was like, “Oh, I get it now. Okay, cool.” Um, and I think the same goes for many, you know, non-binary people and other gender-diverse people. If they want to, you know, pass in one specific way in one specific space, and then they want to just be able to do their own thing in another specific space and just kind of get on with it. Um, and yeah, it's fascinating. It was something that, you know, a lot of the points I make throughout the footnotes is mostly me having a conversation with him and him teaching me something and going, “Footnote time, I'll write that down,” um, because it was really fascinating. 

[00:50:00]

DEE: It's my first T-for-T relationship. It has helped me understand my transness so much more and helped him understand his transness so much more, um, but also validate each other's transness. And yeah, T-for-T is amazing. I love it. I could go on and on about it. And yeah, thanks for bringing it up.

KAYLA: I will say, I was thinking about you last night, Sarah, after… especially after reading some of the more… chapters more specific about gender and kind of figuring it out. I was like, “This is gonna be huge for Sarah's yearly update on gender.” 

DEE: I hope I'm quoted in that when you do, like, an end-of-year roundup of your gender. It's like, at this point in February, I thought this because of this book and Dee. 

SARAH: We literally, basically do a year-end roundup of gender because, at the end of every year, we do the ‘same podcast…’ like the same questions every year. Um, and one of them is, ‘How do you identify?’ And every, like, the past couple of years, it has just involved a whole thing. 

KAYLA: It's really like Sarah's gender corner. 

SARAH: Yeah.

DEE: I'm already thinking of my own, and I hate it, so. 

SARAH: It was just like, “Are you non-binary yet?” And I'm like, “Well…” 

KAYLA: It sounds really bad when you say it like that, that sounds really bad. 

SARAH: But you're not the only person that asks me that. 

DEE: You know what's so funny? I do that to my partner. 

SARAH: Yeah.

DEE: I do that to my partner all the time. I'm like, “Hey, how are ‘they’ pronouns sounding to you today?” And he's like, “No, I’m not…” 

KAYLA: We'll check back in. No, that's literally… that's me and some of our other friends with Sarah. We're just like, “Any day now, we're creeping closer. It’s coming.”

SARAH: I have a friend who is non-binary who, whenever they see me, are like, “So, are you non-binary yet?” So, yeah, it's fine. As long as it works in the specific relationship that you have. It’s fine.

KAYLA: Yeah, don't just be saying that to random people. 

SARAH: Yeah.

KAYLA: You only say that to your Sarah, who you've known for 10 years, which I also recently realized we've known each other for almost 10 years now, which is horrifying. 

SARAH: Ew. Gross. 

KAYLA: Anyway, please don't ask people if they're a certain identity yet, that's actually so fucked up. Don't do what I'm doing. 

SARAH: Incredible. I think the one last thing I want to say, which is that maybe I'm projecting a little bit, but I think if this is an experience I have, and I'm sure a lot of other acespec people do too, which is that, for me, as a sex-averse asexual, part of that experience for me is I don't want to acknowledge genitalia. I don't want to look at it. I think it's yucky, but there are important health implications. And I think, similar to trans folks having dysphoria regarding biology that doesn't… or biological things that don't match their gender bits, if you will, and that's a thing to acknowledge as normal, that dysphoria happens, and that's it's a completely normal thing that happens. I think it's also something that, for ace people, for sex-averse people, for sex-repulsed people, you may have to just power through some of that discomfort for the sake of your own health, and that sucks, but you have to do it. 

DEE: Yeah, and it definitely aligns with trans folks. Like, for example, for me, if I am not feeling too great about my chest, but I know I need to do a chest check, I'll either ask my partner to do it, or I'll do it in the dark, or I'll do it under blankets, or I'll do it in the shower, or like I… there's definitely a moment in the book where I talk about wanking and not feeling comfortable to do it in the light, so I do it under the covers, so I don't know what I'm touching. And I think it is really important to, again, have the knowledge and understand the words around our body parts to be able to tell a doctor, “Hey, this doesn't look right,” or “This isn't my normal,” but also being able to have a look yourself and being able to navigate that. And it is so difficult for trans people and for people who don't feel comfortable with genitalia or, you know, anything in that realm as well, but it is vital. And it's kind of like having to go to the dentist or the doctor. It's just as important that you check yourself, just as you would if you have a cold or, you know, during COVID, we were always doing COVID tests. Like, it's about making those things routine, and even though we might hate doing them, or it might make us feel uncomfortable, finding ways that make us feel a little less uncomfortable when we're doing them, whether that's involving someone or doing it in the dark or under clothes or in the shower when you're already naked. Like, there's ways to navigate those situations that can make you feel more comfortable doing them. But yeah, it sucks. Like I've got to go for my smear test soon, and I'm actually… 

KAYLA: I hate it. 

DEE: I'm a sex educator, and I'm dreading it because I just know I will feel dysphoric, dysphoric, dysphoric the whole time, and I will walk out of there hating everything and wanting to cry. But I know it's important, and I know I have to do it, and I will make sure that I do things to ensure that I feel more comfortable, and then provide myself with aftercare afterwards to celebrate the fact that I did it. So, there are ways to navigate these things as folks like us who may not like our genitals all the time or ever. 

SARAH: Yeah.

KAYLA: I think it's even just acknowledging it in sex ed spaces is so important, that like, acknowledging that it is normal and okay for you to feel uncomfortable with your own body in that way. Because I think for trans people, for acespec people who don't realize that that's something other people go through, it can feel really scary to be like, “Well, you're telling me to do this, and that it should be fine, but for me, it's not fine.” So, I think even just the basics of acknowledging that is so helpful. 

DEE: Yeah, and even when it comes to talking about puberty, like, everyone, I mean, most people are taught, like, “Oh, when you're going through puberty, you'll be uncomfortable with yourself, you might not like your body,” but for some people, that continues beyond puberty, and making sure people know that, that you're not just gonna wake up and go, “Oh my God, I love my body, I love who I am.” Like, it's important to educate people to know that you may not, and that's okay, that's a valid experience, and here are ways that you can navigate that. Or if you do want to transition or whatever, that there are steps, because it isn't just during your puberty that you might not like yourself, and that can also fluctuate, which, for me, as a non-binary person who wishes they could literally detach their chest and stick it back on, that's something I experience so often, and I wish someone taught me that when I was growing up, because for such a long time, I thought, “Ah, a boob job is the answer. Oh no, I should bind using 20 different t-shirts.” No one taught me, so then I just had to figure it out on my own. 

SARAH: Yeah, it's so good to have someone, a trusted person, to just explain that shit to you. And that's what this book is. 

KAYLA: An educated person. Imagine an educated person teaching you things. 

SARAH: What? In this economy.

KAYLA: I can't believe it. 

SARAH: For some reason, me saying, “In this economy,” made me remember that yesterday I bought a dozen eggs, and it cost ten dollars. I'm so mad about it. Okay. 

KAYLA: This is why I don't eat eggs.

DEE: I don't eat eggs either, so I don't envy you. 

SARAH: Mm-hmm. Anyway, that kind of hits all the things I wanted to talk about. Kayla, is there anything else that you want to touch on?

KAYLA: I just want to say that you should buy this book. Even if you're an adult who has been having sex for years and you feel like you know what's going on, buddy, you probably fucking don't.

SARAH: I learned so much. 

KAYLA: Literally, as… sorry, we can wrap up soon, but there's, like, diagrams of, like, anatomy, and I was looking at the one of, like, the vulva, of the vagina, and I was… then I was looking… I was thinking about my own, and I was like, “Wait, so this is this part, and this is this part?” And I was, like, confused. And I was like, “That's my body, and I don't know the difference between a vulva and a labia?” I was like, “What's happening?” Anyway, please buy this book and educate yourself. Don't be like me.

SARAH: I'm sure no one will be shocked to hear that I learned things from this. But listen…

KAYLA: Some of us got really bad sex ed, and we don't remember it, and we don't know… 

SARAH: A damn thing. 

KAYLA: I also, at one point, was looking at the penis anatomy picture, and I was sitting next to Dean, who is my boyfriend, and I said, “Look, it's a picture of you.” And he didn't like that, he didn't think it was funny.

DEE: You should have kicked him and been like, “Do you know what this is on you?”

KAYLA: I should have. I've been like, “Point to this. Now point to this.” 

DEE: Because I always see those videos on TikTok where it's, like, people on the street being like, “Can you label the vulva?” And they always ask AMABs, and I'm like, “Tell me any AMAB who can label every part of himself.” 

KAYLA: No. 

DEE: Because they cannot. Because no one teaches them it. 

KAYLA: Mm-mm.

DEE: They only know the basics or what they 'need to know,' in quotation marks.

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: Go look at a picture. A drawing, perhaps. I like the drawings better, the internet is scary.

DEE: When I was looking up points for illustrating that, mm-mm, mm-mm. 

KAYLA: Yeah, that's… I don't like that.

SARAH: My sister, on her fridge, has a magnet that's a labia, and I don't like it.

KAYLA: You don't like that? Yeah 

SARAH: No, it's scary.

KAYLA: Sorry about that. 

SARAH: I need to look inside and think about why I find that scary. I don't know.

KAYLA: I saw a picture of a snake's open mouth yesterday, and it looked like a vagina.

SARAH: I'm less concerned about a snake's open mouth.

KAYLA: But that was, like, the point of the picture. They were like, “Look at the top of its mouth. Isn't that crazy?” And I was like…. 

DEE: So many things in nature look like vulvas and vaginas. So many things. 

KAYLA: It seems crazy. They're everywhere.

DEE: Yeah 

SARAH: Anyway.

KAYLA: Anyway

[01:00:00]

SARAH: Um, Dee, is there anything that you want to say about your book or your experience or anything that we haven't touched on yet? The answer can be no.

DEE: One thing I will say, and it's something that I've probably said several times during this podcast, but it's something that I really want to hammer home for everyone, is that sex education is your human right. You deserve access to sex education. You deserve to understand how your body works, how other people's bodies work, how consent works, relationships. And sex education is not just sex; it's so much more than that. It's beyond sex. And we're probably going to talk about it in a moment, but when certain individuals in power ban sex education, they don't realize they're banning healthy relationships, understanding your body, consent between family members and friends, not just sexual or romantic. And it's so important that, you know, if you are able to and you want to further your education, that you do so, and that you allow yourself to do so. Because unfortunately, for many of us, we're told a little smidge of sex education, and then we just go on with our lives and just, you know, never bother to learn anything. But it's your body. It's your life. And if you are engaging in sex, if you're engaging in friendships, if you're engaging with romantic partners, if you're, you know, just having relationships with people in general, you need to understand sex education. And yeah, it's a human right. And I don't think we talk enough about the fact that it's a human right, and that you deserve it, that you need it, and that you should see yourself reflected in it. And as I said previously, if you don't see yourself in it, create it. That's it.

SARAH: Hear, hear. 

KAYLA: Amen.

SARAH: All right. Well, on that note, I would say, “Kayla, what's our poll for this week?” But I think our poll is, “Have you pre-ordered Dee's book?” 

KAYLA: “Did you get it?” I also do want to know, though, about people's sex education experiences. It's so fascinating to me to hear different people's experiences, especially, like, where they're from geographically. I think it impacts it so much. So, A, have you pre-ordered the book? And of course, we'll put links everywhere. And B, what did you have? Because I had nothing.

DEE: Or you blacked it out. We don't know.

KAYLA: I literally… the first time I ever remember seeing, like, the condom on the banana thing was, like, freshman year in college. They did, like, a mini sex ed for us. Again, like, I don't remember seeing it before then. I did not know that discharge was a thing that happened to, like, people with vaginas. I thought I had a disease for like ten years. I was like, “Something is wrong, and I'm not gonna ask anyone about it. I'm just gonna sit here about it.” I didn't know. No one told me.

SARAH: I assume I'm dying. 

KAYLA: I literally, I was like, I assume somehow I got some sort of disease, even though I've never even looked at another person.

SARAH: It's giving my sister as a child with anxiety and not telling anyone that she had extreme anxiety.

KAYLA: It's giving something, that's for sure. 

SARAH: Yikes. 

KAYLA: Don't be me, please, I beg you. 

SARAH: But yeah, we'd love to hear about that. And if you're able to pre-order the book, I would suggest it. If you are not able to pre-order the book, request it at your local library.

KAYLA: Yes. 

SARAH: Wonderful. Kayla, what's your beef and your juice for this week?

KAYLA: We did this so recently.

SARAH: We did.

KAYLA: I’ll do a quick look around my house. I mean, I don't like my Wi-Fi. It fucking sucks. If I sound different, it's because I'm recording from directly next to my router instead of in my nice office, because that's where we are at this time. Also, just the world, bad. My juice is one of my friends is making me a Cuban sandwich tonight because I want one and they…

SARAH: So specific

KAYLA: Well, because I almost… I really like a Cuban sandwich and I almost ordered one a couple of weeks ago, I was like going between two sandwiches and they were like, “just get this other one you want, I'll make you a Cuban.” And then I had a really hard week this week and I was like having a spiral on Monday and my friend was like, “okay, I'll make you a Cuban sandwich on Saturday.” So, later I'm going over to their house with some other friends and they're gonna make me a Cuban sandwich, I'm really excited about it, because also Dean's out of town and that means there's no one here for me to be a kitchen princess around, I don't know how to feed myself. 

SARAH: Yeah, that is the one thing about living by myself and also having my strange eating habits 

KAYLA: Yeah 

SARAH: Is I can't ever be a kitchen princess 

KAYLA: Yeah. I mean I did have to cook for myself at one point but a couple privilege is real for me in that I don't cook anymore 

SARAH: Fuck you. 

KAYLA: Sorry.

SARAH: My beef is that I'm out of Adderall and… 

KAYLA: Yeah, again. 

SARAH: Again. I go through like periods of… sometimes if my Adderall is hard to get I will like do everything in my power to get it and then other times I will just be like, “well, I guess I'm going four months without it,” and we're definitely in the latter sort of situation right now because last year I was like jumping through all the hoops 

KAYLA: Especially during the holidays you were like… 

SARAH: I'm sick of it 

KAYLA: It was bad, yeah 

SARAH: Like, it's so much work 

KAYLA: And why? 

SARAH: So, my brain will be doing whatever my brain is doing. Also, as I was still taking my Adderall this week my brain was still bad so I was like, “well, clearly it's not even working right.” My juice is…

KAYLA: You grew some good Pikmin this week 

SARAH: I grew some great Pikmin this week 

KAYLA: Sarah and I are fully, fully in our Pikmin era

SARAH: We have a problem 

KAYLA: We have issues. Dee, I don't know if you've heard of this app called Pikmin Bloom? But it's like Pokémon GO… 

DEE: Uh… 

KAYLA: But for these little gentlemen that look like flower people, and it has taken over Sarah and I's lives 

SARAH: Yeah, it's tough, but, you know. 

KAYLA: Like, I need to walk 10,000 steps today 

SARAH: Me too, because it's a challenge. 

KAYLA: I know but I like… I really wanted to just like sit in my house and do nothing today but now I'm like, “well, how am I gonna do 10,000 steps if I'm just sitting here?” 

SARAH: I'm excited to drive to LAX after this because I'm gonna get an airplane Pikmin 

KAYLA: I'm gonna be so jealous 

SARAH: I'm dropping my friend off at the airport and she texted me this morning and was like, “hey, I just wanted to confirm you're still good to drive me to the airport?” 

KAYLA: You're like, “I'm more than good” 

SARAH: And then she said, “mayhaps with potential airport Pikmin seedlings?” And I was like, “I'm so excited about the airplane Pikmin” 

KAYLA: We have a problem. But hey it's getting me out of the house, I left my house two more times than I needed to yesterday because I had to walk to the corner of my street, I had to walk five feet outside of my house to go collect some flowers and then I just went back inside. Uh, anyway. 

SARAH: Amazing. I'm also gonna see Bogey the cat 

KAYLA: Huge 

SARAH: Which those of you on the podcast are familiar. I used to live with Bogey the cat and Bogey the cat is going on an airplane room zoom

KAYLA: Huge for him 

SARAH: Dee, what is your beef and your juice this week? 

DEE: Cool. My beef this week is everything in the house that I've just moved into is falling apart or breaking

KAYLA: Oh, no.

DEE: And I'm so fed up of it, it's always something. So, the other day it was like, oh, there's loads of spiders, why are there spiders? Spiders’ nests. Why is the heating not working? Oh, because the radiator hob is not working, so we have to turn off the boiler. Oh, no the curtains are falling down because the pole is broken. There has been so many things and it has been one of those situations where I'm normally the one that's a bit more like, “okay, it's fine, things happen, that's okay” and my partner is the one that's like, “it's the end of the world.” Um, but at the moment I'm like, “it is the end of the world, the end of the world, we should leave.” 

SARAH: And you just moved in? 

KAYLA: That's so fair 

DEE: Two months ago 

SARAH: Fuck!

KAYLA: That sucks.

DEE: So, the people before definitely were like, “fuck this! I'm destroying everything, I'm gonna raise spiders in here and just leave.” So, that has been my beef and it probably will be my beef for a while. My juice is something really niche and random but also fitting in with the gaming theme, my boyfriend has been playing Black Ops 6 Zombies and he basically will call over to me from his desk and say, “can you google something for me?” and I'm like, “yes… do this” I have no idea what I'm reading but I tell him, and he's like, “you did it” and I'm like, “oh my God, I'm so proud of you.” Um, so that has been really fun and weirdly affirming because I have a lot of trauma when it comes to gaming and previous relationships. So, it's really fun to be, like, silly with it. Um, and then he succeeds, and I'm like, “I did that. It was me.” 

KAYLA: You did. 

SARAH: It was because of me you got those zombies or whatever it is. 

DEE: Whatever it is, it's not a crown, but make me a crown, I deserve it. 

KAYLA: You're like the guy who's like the tech guy in the van while the Secret Agents are in the museum or whatever, you're like…

DEE: “Give me a name. I'll find them… Found them.” 

KAYLA: That's you, you're the hacker, you’re so good.

DEE: That's me. It's very non-binary to be a hacker as well. 

SARAH: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

DEE: It’s so non-binary to be a hacker. 

KAYLA: I love that. 

[01:10:00]

SARAH: I work in TV, like development and production of TV shows, and we were like, “Is it too much of a stereotype to have the hacker specifically be non-binary?” 

DEE: I want that though. 

KAYLA: Did you really have that conversation? That's so silly. I love that.

DEE: I think when it comes to stereotypes like that, as a non-binary person that sees no non-binary representation, give me the stereotype. I want the stereotype because there's no representation out there, so I don't care if their name is Tree and Hacker and they've got a buzz cut and it's pink. I want that. 

SARAH: Yeah, we can move past the stereotypes later. 

DEE: Yeah.

SARAH: Let's get the stereotypes now. 

DEE: Just get them on screen first, and then we'll work through it. 

SARAH: Exactly. 

KAYLA: Okay, clip this. Send it to your boss. 

SARAH: Okay

KAYLA: The people want it. 

DEE: The people being me.

SARAH: I will not even get into it, yeah. Well, thank you so much Dee for joining us, where can the people find you on the World Wide Web? 

DEE: So, on Instagram, you can find me at ‘S3xtheorywithdee.’ The 'e' in sex is a three because Meta hates me, and I don't know how much longer I'll be on there, but find me there. The same handle on TikTok, on Bluesky. I'm also on Patreon… no, not Patreon, ooh, on Substack now, where I have a Substack called ‘Dee-myth’, where I demyth loads of… I know, I demyth loads of stuff around trans issues, around sex education. So, this week, I did a piece on the Mail Online basically saying that schools are showing young people a video on how to bind and how to take testosterone, and I basically debunked it and how my mom's net was just full of the classic comments about it. Anyway, so that's kind of where I'm putting all of my uncensored thoughts and takes, which is fun. I think that's it, but also my book. 

SARAH: Yeah, buy the book. 

KAYLA: Get it. 

DEE: Search it. You'll find it. 

SARAH: Request it at the library. Do all the things. 

KAYLA: We'll put all the links for all of Dee’s things in the description of this episode. Just go there. 

SARAH: Buy it from your local Indie bookstore. 

KAYLA: Yes

SARAH: Don't give your money to Bezos, that motherfucker. 

KAYLA: I hate that guy. 

SARAH: Wonderful. Well, if you'd like to find Dee on social media in a non-creepy way, if you want to tell us about your beef, your juice, answer our poll, we are everywhere @Soundsfakepod. We also have a Patreon, patreon.com/soundsfakepod. I will let Sarah from the future read the patrons because it takes too long. Hello, it's Sarah from the future, and reminder to everyone that we lied about the book being in pre-order. It's out, so go buy it right now from your little bookstore. Do it. Anyway, our $5 patrons who we are promoting this week are Katharina, Kathryn Bailey, Kelly, and Leila. Also, Liam. Liam Girard. I can't count, as we've established on this podcast. Our $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are Martin Chiesl who'd like to promote his podcast, ‘Everyone’s Special and No One Is,’ Olivia O'Shea, who would like to promote not telling ace-spec people that they just haven't found the right person yet, Parker, who would like to promote subscribing to Patreon even though you're broke and have no money. Again, we cannot necessarily support that ourselves, but if you want to listen to Parker, go for it, and Phoenix Leodinh who would like to promote the Trevor Project. Our other $10 patrons are Purple Hayes, Barefoot Backpacker, SongOStorm, Val, Alastor, Alyson, Ani, Arcnes, Benjamin Ybarra, Bones, Celina Dobson, Clare Olsen, Derick & Carissa, Elle Bitter, my aunt Jeannie, Kayla’s dad, Maff, Martin Chiesl… nope, yes, well, yes, Martin Chiesl, but I already said you. This is going great. Okay, our $15 patrons are Ace, who would like to promote the writer, Crystal Scherer, Andrew Hillum, who would like to promote the Invisible Spectrum podcast, Hector Murillo, who'd like to promote friends that are supportive, constructive, and help you grow as a better person, Nathaniel White who’d like to promote NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com, Kayla’s Aunt Nina who would like to promote katemaggartart.com, and Schnell who'd like to promote accepting that everyone is different, and that's awesome. Our $20 patrons are Dragonfly, Dr. Jacki, my mom, and River, who would like to promote… Mom, what do you want to promote? 

SARAH’S MOM: You 

SARAH: Me?

SARAH’S MOM: And your podcast.

SARAH: And my podcast? But we're on the podcast. 

SARAH’s MOM: Then promote what you think I should promote. 

SARAH: My mom would like to promote my couch. Thanks for listening… nope, but …this… Sarah from the future will do that part. Okay, thank you, bye. Thanks, Sarah from the future. That was so helpful and at a completely normal speed that everyone understood perfectly well. 

KAYLA: As always. 

SARAH: As always. Now I'm not in the right part of the doc. Thanks for listening. Again, thank you so much Dee for joining us. Everyone, buy the book. 

KAYLA: Yay.

SARAH: It's a grand old time. And tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears. 

KAYLA: I end it. And until then, take good care of your cows. 

SARAH: Teach them sex education.

KAYLA: Please.

[END OF TRANSCRIPT]