Ep 265: Free From Desire feat. Aline Laurent-Mayard

(00:00)

SARAH: Hey, what's up? Hello. Welcome to Sounds Fake, But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl, I'm Sarah, that's me.

KAYLA: And a bi-demi-sexual girl, that's me, Kayla.

ALINE: And Aline Laurent-Mayard, an ace and aro non-binary person.

SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.

KAYLA: On today's episode, free from desire.

SARAH, KAYLA, AND ALINE: Sounds Fake, But Okay.

SARAH: Welcome back to the pod!

KAYLA: Welcome everyone, and welcome to our guest.

ALINE: Hello.

SARAH: Hi, Aline. Thank you for joining us.

ALINE: I'm so excited to be here, as a long time listener.

KAYLA: I'm so excited.

SARAH: We didn't realize you were a listener, like, or like, sometimes people are like, oh, I've heard your podcast. And it's like, okay, so you heard one episode, but like, we didn't realize you were an actual listener. And now I'm just like, wow.

ALINE: An actual listener like

KAYLA: So fun

ALINE: yeah, I had epiphany listening to your podcast.

KAYLA: Wow. It’s such an honor. I mean, I think you're our first French guest too, so it's very exciting to be more global.

ALINE: Well, I'm representing all French ace right now.

KAYLA: I love it.

SARAH: You are the country of France as we speak.

(laughter)

SARAH: Awesome. Well, quick housekeeping, literati event.

KAYLA: June 30th.

SARAH: June 30th. I think this I think it's this week when this episode comes out.

KAYLA: That's horrifying. But maybe.

SARAH: Yeah. I don't know. Amazing. Alright. Well, that's it for housekeeping. Alright. So let's dive in. Aline, who is fabulous and wonderful. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and why you're here?

ALINE: First off, I agree. I'm fabulous.

SARAH: True.

ALINE: So I'm I'm an author of some French. You say that before I'm an author of podcasts and books. And recently I just released my first podcasting with the American audience, which is called Free From Desire. And it's the story of how I realized and accepted, which is two different things that I was ace and how it opened a whole discussion on how we see and treat sex in our society and how we can reinvent our relationship with sex and intimacy and rethink what it means to be in a relationship, what it means to be enough to make family and all things like that.

SARAH: Yeah. And it's at Tribeca Film Festival.

KAYLA: Yes. And it won!

SARAH: We have an award winning podcaster on our podcast today.

ALINE: I just I still cannot wrap my head around it. Like we I feel like I think a month or two I've been saying to everybody, no, but there's no winner. I cannot win. There's no like everybody was asking me like, when do you know if you'll win? And like, I don't know why, but the French and me were so sure that there was no winners. And I think if you –

KAYLA: You didn't even know it was a competition, oh my God, that's so funny.

ALINE: I think if we had known we would have paid a plane ticket because then we saw the picture of everybody with a prize and we just learned that we won just accidentally because someone read an article about it and then sent it to us.

KAYLA: Oh my God.

ALINE: I was in a taxi doing an interview and I was just like… what?

SARAH: Like they didn't even like, they didn't even like email you?

ALINE: Maybe they emailed the US office. I don't know, but like the news didn't come all the way to us. So it was just…

SARAH: That’s so odd.

ALINE: Really weird. So we're just I've been celebrating almost almost entirely just by myself with my kid.

KAYLA: I love that.

ALINE: So not much of a celebration, but I just still can't control my head around it. It's just so weird.

KAYLA: It's so exciting. I was stalking your Instagram last night because I was like doing my little research and I was like, oh, I got to make sure we follow them on Instagram and everything. And I saw your story and I was like, oh my God, they just won.

ALINE: Yeah.

SARAH: Yeah. This is America. There is always a winner.

KAYLA: There's always a winner.

SARAH: And a loser.

KAYLA: That's true. Yes. That's true. We must make everything a competition.

ALINE: And for once, the ace person is not the loser. So.

KAYLA: Yeah, it's so exciting. I love it.

SARAH: Huge win for you and the whole team and aspecs everywhere.

ALINE: Yeah.

SARAH: Alright. So let's do shall we dive into our little conversation? Kayla, do you want to start us off?

KAYLA: Well, I think what I was I was starting to say and then I got so excited about you winning is that so the podcast originally aired in France and it's a six episode series

(05:00)

KAYLA: right? Or is it eight? I can't remember.

ALINE: I can’t either. I think it's eight in the French version and maybe seven in the American. It's been a long time. So.

KAYLA: Yeah

(laughter)

ALINE: I think I recorded the first one when I was pregnant with my kid and it was a summer two years ago? And the American version, I think it was also the summer. So last year. So I don't really quite remember everything I should read about my podcast, maybe before I go on interviews.

KAYLA: This is how I feel when we get asked about our book. I'm like, ah, it was so long ago. I don't actually… I don't know what I wrote or what I did.

SARAH: Yeah. I don't know.

ALINE: Same, same.

SARAH: It's seven episodes. The American version.

KAYLA: Good. 

ALINE: I was right!

KAYLA: But it's like seven episodes and it's more documentary style. It's you like talking about your experience and then like talking to experts and everything. It's more like I feel like educational and like scripted and put together versus like a podcast like ours where we're just like chatting and doing whatever just to give people like.

ALINE: Yeah, it's a mix of narrative and and I guess journalistic work. And I do, I go and I speak to a lot of different experts. Most of the experts that we knew of two years ago. So you got Angela Chen, you got David Jay, a lot of people like that. And you also have ace people talking, also my friends, but you also have ace people like we have this amazing episode that I think you're going to love where I gave I interviewed three ace people about their sex lives because like people always get their sex lives wrong and they always assume things that are incorrect. And so, so it's a mix of all those different people talking together. And like the idea is really to open a conversation rather than just share my story.

KAYLA: Yeah, I love that.

SARAH: I kept hearing voices I recognize and being like, oh my God, I know them.

ALINE: And you know, like, of course, I'm, you know, I'm ace. I'm from the very small ace French ace community. And so honestly, the first time I interviewed David Jay, and it was not for that podcast, it was before that. But like, because we don't have anyone in France, like I'm the I'm the most outspoken ace person in France. And I was just looking at what happened in the US, like the ace community is much bigger. And so I read interviews like, I knew all the story. And then when I interviewed David Jay, the first time I was just crying and thank God there was no camera because I was like, David Jay

KAYLA: that is exactly what happened to us the first time we talked to David Jay, we freaked out like the first time we talked to him, we were like oh my god David Jay is here

SARAH: well, and we were live, we were doing a live stream. 

KAYLA: Yeah.

SARAH: And we didn't expect it. 

KAYLA: And then he was like, can I come on. And we were like, what?

SARAH: And he was just like at the beach with his kid, like, hey, can I join? So 

ALINE: I think I heard it. It was for the ace day or something like that, no?

KAYLA: It was for we did like a COVID live stream to like raise money for COVID research right at the beginning of lockdown.

SARAH: Yeah April 2020.

KAYLA: But it was, I mean, it was embarrassing, so that's okay, because we were just like freaking out. But yeah, I was very exciting to hear people that I actually knew because I feel like when I listen to more like journalistic or research podcasts, they're always like, oh, we're going to bring in these experts. And it's all these like, hoity toity, like, PhD, whatevers. And I forgot that like, I, the ace community is so small that like, of course, I would probably have heard of the experts that you were going to bring in. So yeah, it was very exciting. I was like, oh, I know that person and that person.

ALINE: But that's one of the reasons, like before doing this podcast, I've been pitching stories about asexuality because no – like before I used to be more like an internet journalist, you know, writing articles, and they would never take the articles or they will always take something really basic and they will always ask you to like, can you bring a psychoanalyst? And I'm like, no, they don't know anything. 

KAYLA: Yeah

ALINE: And so one of the like, one of the reasons why I decided to go for a podcast format was just that it gave us more time and I could invite more people over. And we could just really give a voice to the ace community because I just got so fed up with article, article that got, or documentaries or whatever that got everything wrong. Like, like recently, so after my podcast, suddenly everybody was interested in asexuality in France and different edition publishing houses just released books about asexuality and like the definition in the first paragraph is wrong. And I'm like, this is completely insane. You’ve got to let people who, who know

(10:00)

ALINE: who know actually talk about this topic that they know. So for me, it was really important and like, it took us a lot of time, especially in the French version, because like we wanted to have like we have, we in the French version, we had Angela Chen, David Jay, and some other English speaking people, but we also needed to have French speaking experts. And that's when it get tough. It got tough. We're like, okay, who, like nobody knows anything about it in France, like it's not something that people research or talk about. So yeah, it was very important to have people who, who know shit talk about it.

KAYLA: Yeah. I was going to ask kind of what the state of like asexuality and aromanticism is in France, because I think we're so used to what it's like in America, obviously, it's not as talked about as other sexualities, but like, you know, it's getting out there, more books are being published, there's more articles out. So it sounds like in France, it's still in those very beginning stages of gaining awareness.

ALINE: Well, I mean, sure, yes. On all LGBTQ+ topics, we're always a bit behind what's going on in the US, but also we're a smaller country. I mean, we're a big country compared to many other countries, but we're still a smaller country. So there are statistically less ace people. And yes, so there are less ace people, but I do see a change from like, it's what I, I think it's coming up in the next episode, episode three, I explained how I discovered the concept of asexuality and how long it took me to accept it because it was so frightening. But also one of the reasons why it took me so long to accept it was that I think it was in 2012. And like the info about asexuality was mostly wrong. And so how can you, like, I was reading things and I was just like, it's not me, it's not me, you know, like, and I see now a change. And especially after this podcast, I see a change in the sense that more and more you see people in like LGBTQ community mentioned the A, explaining it. Like I know, I know people who do, who go to high schools to talk about, you know, all things LGBTQ+, and they say that the student there, they mostly know about it. Like they ask question, like, what is asexuality and everything. So you can see that it's, you know, it's spreading. And we actually, I think, to me, one of the most important things that has happened to the ace community after David Jay is their representation in TV shows. And like, you got, I mean, now it's almost a trope. Like you got a TV show about high schoolers, you got to have someone who's ace. And it's the same in France. So I mean, we do watch all the TV shows that we have in the US, like Sex Education was of course, massive in France. And then we got so many really cool shows and actually, something insane just happened. Next week, I'm on a TV show that's super famous called scam  

KAYLA: Oh nice!

SARAH: You’re on scam?!

ALINE: and I'm in the French version because they decided to do the whole season about asexuality this year, because like it's a season where like, it's a show where every season has a theme. And so the theme here is like, this super popular kid, who just like, can't have sex with his girlfriend. And so like, it goes on to like, oh, him discovering he’s ace. And that's just like a really popular show amongst teenagers and they did it so well. It's one of the best seasons they’ve done. And you know, like that brought me in because like they listened to the podcast so many times. And so it's just so interesting to see how, especially teenagers now, like they know more about it. And, and the fact that suddenly after my podcast, all the media talked about it also made a massive impact. Like I got, I was on the, on the cover of like a very, very well known and respected magazine in France, Culture Magazine. And like friends of mine heard people in the train, in the restaurant, talk about it.

KAYLA: Oh my God.

ALINE: It's just amazing. I got, I got messages from people who are like 18 years old and like, you changed my life. And I'm like, this is insane. Like it's something is happening because most of the articles after my podcast were finally like correct. You know what I mean? Like it's not, it was just like, you let someone who was like, who knew about it, talk about it and then then invited more people because I keep saying like, I'm not representative of the whole ace community and, and some other people have to talk. And I know that when I started working on it, like as a journalist, the main problem was that nobody wanted to talk about it. Like if it was anonymous, why not? But not for like TV

(15:00)

ALINE: not for, not with the pictures taken. And so now it's really changing and we've got more voice. So yeah. So it was shit. It's less shit. That's alright. Sorry. Can I say shit?

SARAH: Yes. You can swear

KAYLA: You can do whatever the fuck you want. That is so, so exciting.

ALINE: I feel like I'm just like saying, “Oh, look at me. I'm awesome.”

KAYLA: No, you should.

SARAH: But you are.

KAYLA: But you are. Like that's, I was, or Sarah, were you going to say something?

SARAH: I was just going to say, I think that highlights the importance, not just of like representation generally, because obviously me and Kayla are in, we're American. We are in a very American aspec space. You know, representation is always important, regardless of where it's coming from. But it's also so important to have like grassroots representation that can really bring a new perspective to other countries and cultures. Because if we just try and push like, Oh, this is our American aspec representation and understanding onto everyone else, it can be helpful, but it's even more helpful if it's really coming from people in the community and in that culture. And so I think it's so important that that continues to happen. People continue to make their voices heard in their own communities.

ALINE: Yeah. And I feel like in France, one of the things that bigots say is, Oh, you just imported that from the US. Like it's not a real thing. And you can see that people will say like, yeah, it's something that happens in the US, even like, you know, teenagers or whatever, like whomever, they would say, yeah, but it's not real. It doesn't like, it's not as big in France or whatever. And suddenly when you see someone who just speaks like you, who has the same references, even though, even if like, in the end, the characters and the arches are the same, like really when I see American characters that are ace, I'm just like, there's no difference, almost no difference between you and me in terms of how we feel about being asexual, but just for people. And also I know the, like, I have an international background, so I can relate more, I think than some people who don't speak English, who hear like horrible, horrible, like a dubbed version or whatever, you know, and it makes, it's still moving to see right now TV shows about asexuality where the characters, you know, they speak like us, they look like us, like the background is, you know, like ours. So it makes a huge difference. And I think it's really important to just like make it happen everywhere in all countries.

KAYLA: Yeah. Speaking of kind of the like internationality of it, and also characters in the podcast, you reference a lot of just like pop culture, basically, like you talk about the movie American Pie, you talk about just like seeing a lot of sex in the media when you were growing up. Did you have to change any of those references going from the French to the American version? Like, how much kind of content overall did you have to change to make it make sense to that an American audience who might not know as much about France?

ALINE: We took off a lot of French references. But to be fair, like, especially in the late 90s, early 2000s, when I was a teenager, there weren't a lot of content for teenagers, like French content. So like, we watched a lot of American shows. So we didn't really have to change much. I mean, a lot of like wording and some things were just like, it's not going to work. But the biggest cultural shock that we had is so I'm French, we worked, the team was like my French producer, the American producer who was actually Israeli. And that was it. So and then the sound sound designer, suddenly, I don't know how to

SARAH: sound engineer?

KAYLA: sound engineer.

SARAH: Mixer?

ALINE: Yeah. I think it's also the same one that for the French version. So he's also French. And so there were barely any Americans on the day to day working on that podcast. And the reason so the biggest cultural shock was like, the title of the podcast, because it means something in French. It's just not like a fun sentence. It's a it's an international hit from from the Singer Gala. And like, for us, we were so convinced that everybody in the US would know that song. Because like, everybody knows it, like from Israel to maybe not Japan, but like everybody in Europe

SARAH: In Europe yeah

ALINE: and, and somehow you got all the other bops from that, from that, from that time, you all have them except for this one. 

(20:00)

ALINE: And so at some point, we're just like, and we got the right to play that song. And now it's so funny, because I get pictures from people all the time, like, look what they listen what they're playing at the pride and all that, like, it's a very queer song. And so we're good. We were so excited to have the rights to play that song. And then, and then we're like, wait, nobody knows that song is insane.

SARAH: That's such an experience I had. Because when I spent a semester in Germany, like, you know, you would go, you would go out, whether it was just anywhere in Europe, not even specific to just Germany, they would play songs that were in English that everyone knew and I had never heard in my life. And I was like, I am a native English speaker. This is by like an American or a British artist. I have never heard this in my life. And everyone else was like, what you don't know that I was like, no

KAYLA: I recently, this is only semi related. I saw a tweet recently that was like, do Americans love? Oh, shoot, what's the song? Oh, they were like, do Americans love Mr. Brightside as much as Europeans do? And I was like, what a stupid question. We love that song.

SARAH: Yeah.

KAYLA: But like, they had no idea. They were like, is this only a big thing over here? And I was like, no, this is our song. Go away.

SARAH: I've seen some TikToks recently about like, things that non Americans thought were only in American movies. And then they were like shook to discover like, are actually like common in America. The number one was yellow school buses.

KAYLA: Oh, they thought that was just a movie thing.

SARAH: Yeah.

KAYLA: Interesting.

SARAH: Yeah. And then there was one that was like mailboxes. And I was like, what?

KAYLA: That's so funny.

SARAH: And it was just like, it was so interesting to see the things that like, people just, they thought it was just in the movies and it's like, no, that's like, that's, that's real.

ALINE: Yeah. But I get it because it's so different. Like it's stupid, but the mailboxes thing. Like I remember the, I think the first, first few trips I did in the US I would take pictures of the mailboxes all the time.

KAYLA: That's so funny.

ALINE: Our mailboxes just really don't look the same.

SARAH: Yeah. They're just like

ALINE: we don't have yellow school buses. Like our school buses just looked like crap buses. Like any other buses.

KAYLA: Yeah. That's part of what I really like about your podcast though, is that I think so often as Americans, we don't get to see those cultural references from other countries.

SARAH: We think we're the center of the world.

KAYLA: Yeah. Everything's so American centric. So it's really cool to be able to see like what life is like for like a French teenager in like the 2000s and nineties and be able to pick out like what is similar to us and what's different. And it's really cool to be able to see an ace person from a different culture and be like, Oh wait, but we are like the same. We had the same things growing up, even though we were, you know, across the ocean. It's really cool.

ALINE: But to be fair, like I feel like there are nuances and like the differences, I mean, the differences between the two countries when it comes to high school experiences and like relationship to sex and like how we view sex, there are differences, but there are, to me that details like sure in the US you got a more prudish community. It was like the like, let's stay virgin until we get married vibe and all that. But like, we don't have that in Europe or at least not that much. And we maybe have a more like culture, at least in France where like flirting is seen as like something cool and like, it's, it's a bit messed up, but it's really, for me, it's nuances because like in the end it's like, we got the same thing, like it's Western countries. We think that sex is the most important thing all around and like we all grew up or not all grew up. Like if you're my age, you grew up with Sex and the City and American Pie and now there are a lot of different shows also where like most of the action is about sex. It's like how many shows a year you have a teenager who's obsessed with losing their virginity, so-called virginity before going to uni or university. It's you know, it's all the time. It hasn't changed. So I think, and even now that we're opening the conversation about the, about sex now, you know, like post-MeToo and everything, or post-, like we're still in the MeToo movement and it's still going not exactly at the same speed, not, it's not like things are not moving exactly the same way, but it's still going in the same direction more or less at the same time. So like now, teenagers now in France, I don't think they're that different from teenagers in the US, you know

SARAH: especially with the internet.

KAYLA: Yeah true

SARAH: Like it's even more interconnected than it was when you were, when you were growing up. That was something I did have a question about. Like one of the first things that really stood out to me when I was listening to the podcast

(25:00)

SARAH:  the American version, obviously I don't speak French, was that it is definitely directed towards a specifically American audience. It's not just English speaking audiences. It's specifically for an American audience. Like I also noticed like you were referring to yourself, like you were like, oh, I was a junior and he was a senior. And I was like, that is specifically American terminology.

KAYLA: I was like, I know you don't use those words over there.

SARAH: That's not Canadian, that's not British. And so I'm just kind of curious what the thinking was behind aiming it at that specific audience. 

ALINE: So first, like, let's go back and see why we decided to adapt the podcast into English. It's very simple. We got a studio in France, they launched a US office a few years back. And so they just, they heard the story and they were like, that would be interesting for the American market. And that's it. You know, there was not really a lot behind it. It's just, I came with my project. I wanted to do it in French, of course, because I'm French. And then they said, can you speak English? And I was like, I can. And that's it, you know. But also, again, going back to is America – the United States of America? Because America is a continent.

SARAH: I've learned so much about that recently. In America, if you say America, it means the United States. Outside of the United States, that is not necessarily true. Continue.

ALINE: It is true in French, though. And I'm trying to change that because, like, I remember the first time I went to the US, I was, I think, 14, or first time that I remember of, I was 14. And like, I was so shocked that everybody will be saying, like, America, America. And I'm like, so many other countries

KAYLA: (laughing) No, just us

ALINE: anyways, when I write French to say United States as an adjective, like the way they do it in Spanish, instead of saying American, it's like, United States and you know, or something like that. And like, it sounds weird. And a lot of people think that it's very pretentious to say it like that. But I'm like.

KAYLA: Yeah, because I got the French word for America isn't even it's just the United States like America. I took French for a couple of years in college, so

SARAH: she knows nothing, she knows nothing 

KAYLA: I don’t remember any of it. But I remember it's Les etats unis. It's not even America isn't even in there. Look at me knowing French. Yeah.

ALINE: Bravo.

KAYLA: That was so embarrassing.

ALINE: Anyways, okay, so sure, the US is not the center of the world, but also they kind of are culturally. So it's also, I think most of the people like we mostly learn, like the way Europeans speak English, I think it's mostly like American English, just because of the TV shows, even though most of our teachers are British, or they're just like, French or German people speaking bad, bad English, but like, so it's easier. Also, like if you want to do an international podcast, it's just, I think, easier to reach people if you have American references. And so I speak English to my kid for like a bunch of weird reasons. And every time I'm like, because I have so many British friends, and they don't have the same vocabulary that I have. And every time I'm like, what word should I pick because that I know, like, three different – like I studied in Canada, I have British friends, and I'm like, what word should I pick, like, if you want to do something international in English, you’ve got to pick a country. And I think the easiest is just the US because it's the biggest. It's really weird.

SARAH: Yeah, well, I think, in general, what is taught in schools is British English. I think it's becoming more American English, because there's so much American English media and culture that people are picking it up from there. So it's like, well, why are we learning? Why are we learning the colonizers English, then we can instead learn the imperialists English, you know?

KAYLA: so much better.

SARAH: Perfect. Sorry, I distracted us with…

ALINE: We should always talk about about beating the British Empire all the time.

SARAH: Always

ALINE: And the French empire too. Oh, let's not forget we had an empire and we're as bad as the British so

SARAH: all empires just we all know that 

KAYLA: I'm trying to look at my notes. I feel like I've asked all my questions just like through our conversation, all my little notes that I wrote down, because I also don't want to spoil the podcast, because I always like asking our guests, like how they realize they were ace or aro, but I know you talk about it in the podcast. So I don't want to like spoil anything. So I don't know if you want to answer you can

(30:00)

KAYLA: but if you don't want to spoil it and you want to make people listen, that's also fine. 

ALINE: I mean, I know that you only listen to the first two episodes and it's just like two sevenths of the podcast. And I think for ace people, I think the first two episodes are just going to be like, oh, I feel seen. 

KAYLA: Yes

ALINE: Like this is what I what I've experienced. And then the next the ones after maybe are more interesting because it's really starting a conversation about about how we could reshape society and relationships. So I think even if we spoil the first two episodes, there's just so much more in the in the podcast for ace people, even though it's not just for ace. Like it was really because like and I guess you, you probably have had the same experience. But ever since I started talking about being ace and what asexuality is, I saw that non ace people were just so interested because like suddenly you were just like questioning everything that they thought they knew. And so making that podcast was also sure I want to help ace people, people on the on the spectrum just realize that they're somewhere there and that they can change their life, but also just get the rest of them to just know what asexuality is and to rethink like the way they have sex, because apparently it's awful. Like, I don't know, like, you're supposed to want to have sex at the same frequency on the same day, at the same time your whole life and be satisfied with the sex? It just doesn't make any sense.

SARAH: It sounds like magic because it seems like to get it correct without talking about it would require magic.

ALINE: Exactly. And who has magic like Harry Potter? Like

SARAH: yeah

KAYLA: yeah, I did feel very seen by the first two episodes of you because in the first two episodes, you haven't yet realized you're aspec and you're kind of just like a teenager and a university student and like in your early 20s. And it was like almost like painful to listen to like in a good way but like because I can just feel it of like we were there like I know people who were there I was there and like I'm like I know it's going to get better like I know they're going to figure it out but like it is so yeah it is very relatable.

ALINE: It was painful doing this podcast.

KAYLA: Was it painful to like relive kind of all of those memories and like even talk to past people?

ALINE: Yeah. Yeah. Especially because I have such a bad memory that a lot of things like I'm a journalist so I really wanted to have like the you know my life timeline correct and like I couldn't do that. Like honestly doing the podcast I realized that somehow I think I thought that I discovered asexuality when I discovered also bisexuality and all that when I was 21, 20/21 but that's actually doesn't match what I had because like I went and look into like all of my discussions on like Facebook Messenger and everything I even tried to get to go into my Hotmail Messenger or something like that? And I could not get in, but like I went into my old mailboxes and I was like doesn't make sense like I'm from those email it feels like I've discovered that word in 2012 and so it was really weird trying to piece up to piece everything together and just rereading some emails also like reread the notes that the people in junior high would write and it was just so painful to just like people would write things like don't let anyone change you but like change your jokes. 

(laughter)

KAYLA: Jesus christ

ALINE: It was so brutal. So it was weird like to have to write about like to relieve certain things because I was reading them to just like suddenly feel like that teenager that I was or that young 20 something that I was but I think the most uncomfortable was really the second episode where I talk about the few years where I forced myself to have sex thinking that this would just like ignite something and I suddenly you know like I will like it and… oh yeah that was something cultural too because we have a very famous saying that says “the appetite comes while eating” and that was like the podcast like this episode was really around this concept that we hear all the time in France. It's mostly about food but it also you know goes for like a lot of different things and that's what I heard so many times when I was when I was younger. Anyways yeah so that episode like just going back

(35:00)

ALINE: and rethinking of all the like all the bad sex situation I put myself through and and just also having like interviewing people about the “gray zone” as they say which I think is a bullshit concept is just still not consent like you need to be two people need to be enthusiastically into it 

KAYLA: Mhm

ALINE: and otherwise you're just forcing someone and that person just says yes because you know they're like maybe I should or like this person really wants it or I still don't get why you would have sex with someone who doesn't seem to be into it just it just seems 

KAYLA: yeah I like apart from the consent part just talking about the enjoyment like I feel like I wouldn't enjoy having sex with someone who wasn't into it like that seems like I would be offput

ALINE: I mean I barely enjoy sex at all so like that 

SARAH: that was something that really stuck with me in that second episode where you were saying how you were forcing yourself to have sex you knew you were forcing yourself to have sex your friends also knew that you were forcing yourself to have sex but nobody saw anything wrong with it. And I think that's so just indicative of sex culture and culture more generally that I think we're moving away from hopefully we continue to move away from but I think it's so important to like acknowledge that these things can have happened to you in the past and you can have not known then that they were bad or that they were you know you know it's like you hear people too about talking about like situations where they were like oh I thought I consented to that and then later on they're like I totally didn't and then they're having to completely reconceptualize these experiences they had and like that's okay and that's important and that's hard as well, but I think it's a really good thing to talk about so that people are aware that like you can change your conception of what happened to you in the past, and sometimes it's actually really important that you do 

ALINE: yeah yeah I think for me doing this podcast really got me to realize that I put myself in a violent situation but not just me like it's not on me it's first of the brainwashing but also those people those people who forced me like it's not like I said yes because they just asked like they went on and on and on and on and also one very interesting part is that I mostly had sex with people abroad and I think they were fetishizing the fact that I was French and I was like this cliche of a French, the cliche of the French person that they had in their head because I'm skinny, I'm white and because I didn't want to, I just didn't feel very welcoming which I think also like the the rude French person is like also that cliche and and thinking about it you know I'm just like this was wrong on so many levels.

SARAH: coerced consent is still a lack of consent

ALINE: yeah 

SARAH : and that's something that it's it's important but really difficult for people to learn 

KAYLA: yeah and you talk about in that episode kind of how I think it's your when you're talking to Megan Carroll who I love and I know so that was slay I was like oh my god Megan what are you doing here but talking about like how women are often 

ALINE: Again not in the French version we added that

KAYLA:  I was wondering about that yeah well I'm very glad you did 

ALINE: we did to the American version

KAYLA: oh nice Megan Slay oh sorry very glad

ALINE: very glad she's amazing

KAYLA: oh my god the cat what was I saying oh so you talk about how like the kind of the sex roles and the sex script about how the man is supposed to be like super into it and the woman is just kind of like docile and like oh I don't know um and so I think that's part that's really important for especially non-aspec people to hear because that also happens to non-aspec women where we start having sex and maybe like aren't super into it at first or like the sex isn't good because men don't know how to like please women and aren't concerned about it and so like you said your friends were like oh it's totally normal like I also hated sex at first and just like kept doing it and then liked it eventually so I think it's really important for aspec and non-aspec people to hear that like no that's not okay and like women shouldn't have to just like take that to like like sex eventually or something

ALINE: so as a side note um I feel the first time that I've had sex and that I wasn't into it which was weird because it was like someone who was hosting me on a couch surfing host so like where was really my consent you know? And it was also sort of like nagging me because before that it was like no way

(40:00)

ALINE: you never had sex it's impossible because you’re hot and blah blah blah and blah blah blah and so you know it's almost like that like feeling of like you have to prove it so after that one time where like I went all the way through and I fucking hated it and after that I started doing something every time I would just I would just ask the guy to pull out and because I could never once it was in me it was just like it's too much I just I just cannot and I remember I was when I was studying in Canada and I remember someone mentioning during a big party was like everybody talking about sex because we're in our 20s and somebody was just saying oh yeah I I do that thing like I always stop at the third base and a half and it was so interesting because it was the first time that I heard someone say that she too could just not like once she was there she just could not go all the way and so I have no through no idea why she was doing it, but I think I remember that having someone mention it, it did not stop me from having a lot of bad sex and asking many more times for guys to to pull out but like for the first time I was seeing that someone else was just not into it and just getting in those situations, and I remember the feeling of being like oh. Well sadly in my head it meant that it was okay to continue doing this because apparently it was a normal thing but it's also I wasn't the only one so I wasn't completely broken

SARAH: yeah

ALINE: so

KAYLA: yeah

ALINE: talk about those because if we don't talk about it then we don't know

KAYLA: yeah you're kind of validated in doing it you're like oh well if everyone's doing it and having a terrible time then certainly what I'm doing isn't bad for me because like we're all doing it. Yeah and it creates just like this cycle of just 

ALINE: It’s just everyone talking themselves up you know like it's like everybody's doing it like that but at the same time it's like you're not alone so yeah

SARAH: yeah and I think on the topic of the audience for this for this podcast you mentioned it earlier in this podcast and at the beginning of your podcast and free from desire about how

KAYLA: Podcasts

SARAH: it's it's podcasts everywhere um you know this isn't just a story or just content for aspecs and I think that is so important because I think just based off of the first two episodes that were out by the time we recorded this that I have heard, it's a really good introduction to allos for an example of what the aspec experience can be like and obviously you know one person can't speak for every aspec person, but you do have a lot of I think universal experiences that you talk about and because you talk about them in such detail and as Kayla said like sometimes such painful detail like and but you also have these like experts on and these like journalists and researchers and like you hear all of this context. I think it's just a really good introduction and on last week's episode of the podcast the one that is out tomorrow for us we were talking about how like this this podcast, sounds fake but okay, it's just aspecs existing and that's and that is what we do. We're not like a serious storytelling or educational platform and that's one of the critiques we get is that we're not, but it's like well that's not what this podcast is but I think your podcast that has more narrative like documentary, journalistic education like that is a really good representation of that kind of media, and so I would absolutely recommend it for all of the aspecs listening and all the allos listening to just make everyone listen to it.

ALINE: thank you first of all. For so it's one of the complex it took us so long to write this podcast especially the first episodes the first – yeah the first two episodes it was just like honestly I almost did a burnout while doing this podcast. I just could not at some point and one of the reason like is those feeling of like being, feeling like you have to have sex before a certain age like everybody's talking about sex why are you not having sex. This is almost a universal feeling I mean of course some people don't feel like that because they love sex or whatever. They didn't have they were in a setting where they didn't feel that pressure I don't know but most people have felt that whether they're ace or or allo, and one of the tough things was to make it to make people like to make it universal so that people would like want to continue listening even if they're not ace but also to show how specific our ace experience is

(45:00)

ALINE: and honestly in the first episode I'm not sure that it is specific to an ace person. I think it like my story gets very ace specific I think in my 20s but before that it is very universal I think in the sense that like not everybody is just like sex oriented when they're like a teenager, and or at least not as much as society want them to think they are 

SARAH: yeah like even if they do have experienced crushes and like sexual attraction and all that stuff it's still pushed on you so much, and there are certain expectations to talk about it a certain amount and to participate in a certain amount and so even if you are allo that can definitely still feel like a burden 

ALINE: I feel like weirdly what was making me feel different and awkward when I was especially like junior high/high school maybe was the fact that I was aromantic because I didn't have any crushes and I felt at the time that this was what like our I think I felt at the time that it sure it was going to come like, time was on my side so I was like it's going to come it's going to come but I still had that feeling of not being able to connect with the other kids because everybody was talking about crushes and it took me way longer it took me to listen to your episode about Jo March to understand that I was aromantic but it's weirdly I think the ace part was not I didn't feel so weird being ace when I was younger because like I had other friends who are not ace and they also didn't really, like we never talked about sex with my friends. Like all of my friends we like we french kissed, we tongued way later than like most kids or way later than we thought most kids were doing it, so it's just it was it wasn't that much of a discussion like we never talked about masturbation or whatever, and I know a lot of kids talk about it but like this was not something that I talk about with my friends because like it was not interesting to my allo friends at the time

KAYLA: yeah I think the romantic piece definitely comes earlier I mean like I know I'll see on TV or even like in person people talking about their children like their young children being like oh my god he has a crush or like he has like a little “ladies man” onesie on and it's like what the actual fuck, but it does come so much earlier the romance and the crush part and I think yeah as you get older and the expectation of having sex gets like more and more pressure as you like get into high school and university and then you're in your 20s and it's like okay if you haven't done it by then, like you talk about it it's like people are like oh my god that's crazy but yeah the aro piece, when you're younger when people are just starting to get all those crushes and stuff it is a lot more difficult 

ALINE: it's actually something that I so the first the last episode is actually about how I decided to raise my kid who's now 21 months, so almost almost two and as a non-binary ace and aro person like it was really important to me that and I don't know if I could do it any other way but that I would not reproduce that pressure to be to be cis, to act like a lady, to act like a gentleman, to be in love or whatever and so I tried as much as I could being in a French system with my environment to not gender my kid and so I only use gender neutral words, and like I never like of course never say like comments if my kid is playing with kids of the “other gender” so to say. Because I don't think my kid has a gender

KAYLA: Yeah

ALINE:  because my kid is not old enough to have claimed gender. Yeah it's so we go into into that bit too like if we want to change the system sure we gotta talk about asexuality we gotta talk about enthusiastic consent, we gotta talk about the the importance that sex and romance have in our society, but we also have to do better with the young people that are born and growing up right now like we can actually make it so that it's not such a pressure, that it's not ingrained in their brain from like when they're in the like when they're being born, and then someone is saying oh well I do have a kid of the other sex of the same age. Maybe one day I will marry them, and you're like this baby is like an hour old. It's completely insane and I see that at my kid's nursery and it's just driving me nuts, and I think yeah. We have a lot to do and like everything is connected

(50:00)

ALINE: so like education talking about sex like this even like physicality, like real estate, all of that it's just like interconnected

SARAH: yeah there's a bit of a social taboo around sexualizing really young kids but that taboo does not exist for romance and so it is really just kind of enforced upon kids from the second they're born and it's not fun. I did have a question. This was something that you mentioned before we started recording was that there was a little more of that aro aspect in the French version of the podcast that you ultimately decided to dial back on in the American version. What was the thinking behind that and like what kind of things did you have in the French version that you ended up not keeping it?

ALINE: To be fair I don't remember

(laughter)

KAYLA: I love that

SARAH: I respect that

ALINE: I know that we cut a lot of because for me talking about aromanticism meant talking about focusing on your friendships or your family as you want, and so I had this whole discussion about the limits of being romantically partnered, like being in a romantic relationship like and and just like forgetting about your friendships or putting them second and so I had the discussion about how I try to reshape very, very slightly, very lightly the way I interacted with people and the way I organized my life so that I had friends that were more in line like whose vision of life and friendship was more in line with mine. And I think that's mostly what we cut the whole discussion about friendships but yeah this is something that I will go into in more details in future work that will be in French but maybe one day will be in English who knows so 

SARAH: everyone start learning French now 

KAYLA: Immediately

SARAH: just to consume Aline's content

KAYLA: I'm gonna go back to my French classes I'm gonna try to remember what I once knew

ALINE: Yep. Good luck with that

KAYLA: yeah I wasn't good at it the first time and I can't imagine it's easier learning language

SARAH: I recall me and Kayla were once in France together and I do believe there was a situation where someone said something to us in French and I understood it before you did

KAYLA: okay first of all yes that did happen but second of all before we were together in France I was without you in France and I did hold a complete conversation with someone and knew all of what they were talking about 

SARAH: Mkay sure

KAYLA: They were telling my friend listen she was telling my friend that she really liked her outfit and she was like oh like they don't make colorful like beautiful clothes for bigger people like us in France like where'd you get that and she was like Walmart because we're from America and the lady was like what is Walmart it's France and you guys don't have Walmart but I knew the entire conversation and that's the only time I've effectively used French so there you go

SARAH: impressive, alright. I'll give you that I'll give you that one, whatever.

KAYLA: here's Aline having some knowing so many languages and then there's us idiots

SARAH: hey okay you're monolingual. I am not

ALINE: what language do you speak? 

SARAH: I know German it's not a useful language to know but but I do know it 

KAYLA: but she did study it in college just to not use it now

SARAH: yep exactly

ALINE: I'm actually really bad at speaking foreign languages because like I mean sure my English is not bad, but like I have spent so much time like with English speaking people and working English like most of my bosses have been American so like most of my life I've worked in English and so even like I still feel very frustrated with my level of English and like I'm also bad at French 

(laughter)

ALINE: like I try to speak Spanish and Italian and Arabic and I still remember painfully the time where like it's been like I think seven years that I was learning Spanish and like the Spanish teacher was like what language are you speaking? And I was like oh Spanish like well maybe I'm learning Italian right now so maybe like I'm Italian it also doesn't sound like Italian

KAYLA: that is cutting but I think your English is very good because English is a really hard fucked up language so 

SARAH: your vocabulary in English is very good 

ALINE: English is the easiest language that you can learn

KAYLA:  really?

SARAH: I've always heard English is really hard I've heard I've heard two things I've heard that under like learning the rules of English is very very easy 

(55:00)

SARAH: the problem is that there are a bunch of just random exceptions to the rules that have no there are no rules to the exceptions so yeah

ALINE: but I'm French so like exceptions it's like it's the basis of yeah 

KAYLA: True. Which is why it's so hard and I was so bad at it 

ALINE: but also again like I'm really into into movies and TV shows like when I don't write about gender I write about an LGBTQ+ issue, I write about about movies and this is my whole life. So I have spent so much time watching movies that there are words that I've never used in my life I just know because of movies and so you learn the exceptions because you're just surrounded with English at all time like there are very few people can say they don't hear or read something in English of their day like it's 

SARAH: yeah being a native English speaker is a huge privilege in in the modern world, and I don't mean like oh yes it's so nice to be able to speaking. I mean like it is, but like it gives like native English speakers have such a leg up over everyone else 

ALINE: see we were talking about like the French ace community and up until recently all the content about asexuality was in English you had to just like like know what was going on with AVEN and just like go and read and like do that work on the internet in English to get the info and so you know like it's a privilege that not everybody has, and it's really nice to see that some people in France are really doing a great work at translating some academic work into their Instagram account, or like on blogs, to get this international, but more specifically most of the time American/United States 

(laughter)

ALINE: you know works to into French and I think this makes a massive difference, but yeah like some Instagram account about asexuality are popping up right now and it's – popping out – and it's really really nice but yeah 

SARAH: yeah it's so it's so important to see all that stuff translated and then like the next step past that is to like have foundational conversations that are just happening in French that don't, that weren't translated to begin with like our just French conversations and it sounds like thanks to you those are kind of starting to happen maybe a little bit more than they used to 

ALINE: I remember the first time I was invited to talk about asexuality. They invited two ace person me and someone else and I just, I was moved during the whole interview because I realized that I never actually talked to someone who was ace and out and proud and like had knowledge about being ace, because like I have many friends who are ace who didn't know they were ace before I started talking to them about like or talking in general about the ace spectrum, and so now I have friends who are on the ace spectrum but like because they're not on the same end necessarily of the spectrum, or like they don't have the same experience in their life or they're not ready also at this you know? Like they're not as into what's going on as I am and it's just I remember that feeling of like speaking with someone was also ace and it was just like ace and had knowledge about it, and it was just amazing, and honestly I thought about that when we started talking the three of us like, it is still one of the very rare occasions in my life that I'm talking with other ace people who are really into being ace and it's just always I mean chills. Like it's just like

KAYLA: yeah I feel like we have this experience every time we have a guest on or we do interviews with other people as I feel like we always get along with the people we talk to so well and like we're able to just have these really exciting conversations because 

SARAH: yeah

KAYLA: like in my real life I know a couple aspec people, but like we don't have these kind of conversations and so yeah it's always the best when we have guests on and we can just like talk about these things that we all understand and we all have the same background it's so exciting

SARAH: and like it feels like you've been friends for your whole life but like technically we when we set this up we didn't even email you. We were emailing someone else on your behalf. This is literally the first time we've ever talked to you and it's like oh it's going great 

ALINE: but see like I have a friend who is ace, ace and aro I think like she doesn't really use those words to describe her or like not necessarily unlike she never had any sexual intercourse so we have like completely and never dated anyone so we have completely different backgrounds and sometimes when you're not on the same page

(01:00:00)

ALINE: when you're not to that point where like you reach the end of your journey so to speak, like it's never really over like it's difficult because like I don't want to feel like I'm pressuring her, and I don't want to feel like I don't want her to feel like this is all I talk about or like she should do it this way or whatever and so most oftentimes I'm just censoring myself and like sometimes I want to say us, but I'm like you know I know she knows, you know, but like I don't want to like put a label on her if 

SARAH: she's not there yet 

ALINE: She’s not ready because it's such it impacts your whole life afterwards you know? Like yeah as soon as you accept that you're ace and aro you're not gonna get you're not gonna be like in a romantic sexual relationship and that's gonna change your whole life and even though you know like you've been that way your whole life just knowing, that there is no like it's gonna stay like that and there will be no happy ending you know it's just it's just so difficult and so yeah it's rare to be with people who have finished their journey towards accepting and loving that they're ace 

KAYLA: yeah it's super nice I know I have a few friends that I'm like their aspec parent like I was the one that introduced them to it and I'm kind of like helping guide them through and yeah it's interesting having to be like okay I'm just gonna let you do your thing over here and I'll be here if you have any questions but like 

SARAH: me, me for the first 30 episodes of this podcast

KAYLA: Yeah that’s very true. Sarah was my ace mother and Sarah was over there like this bitch is so fucking demisexual but I can't tell her that I just have to sit here and watch her figure it out very painfully and in front of everyone. Hee hee hee

SARAH: Hee hee

ALINE: yeah but the thing about demisexual is like so many people are on the spectrum and like I remember so many people when I explained what it meant to me to be because at the beginning I thought I was demisexual. Like it was easier to think that 

KAYLA: Yeah

ALINE: and when I'd explain they'd be like no but that's normal, and then suddenly all those people were like I think I'm on the spectrum I just realized that not everybody is like that and so it’s so easy to just think that you know like there are so many people like 

KAYLA: oh yeah I there's like so many and no one knows that. I yeah I've talked to so many people and I'm like you are definitely demisexual but I'll just let you

SARAH: No that's just that's just how everyone feels. Okay sure, sure Jan 

ALINE: someone is saying that to me I’m like hm.

KAYLA: I'm like good to know I'll keep that in mind

ALINE: you drink a lot do ,you take drugs when you have to have sex hmm that's a sign

(laughter)

SARAH: interesting alright. Kayla is there anything else that we want to hit on?

KAYLA: I can't think of anything 

SARAH: I also had a note just a thing that I liked was how you in the second episode you acknowledge I think it was it was either Angela or Megan who you were talking to? I can't remember now who were saying how oftentimes intimacy is conflated with just like meaning sex and that intimacy equals sex and I did like how you you kind of jumped into that a little bit and was like you know that is not necessarily like sex can be a part of intimacy but it is not they're not equivalent and that was just the last thing that I had noted that I wanted to bring up not really a question just I liked it.

ALINE: I think it was for me one of the main takeaway of like delving into asexuality and especially into Angela Chen's book like obviously when I read it which was like oh yeah all of it yeah and it's interesting. Later in the podcast I mentioned my like, I mentioned how my sex life has evolved and now it's it has reached I don't really want sex at all but I did. The last relationship I had was after I was really like completely and fully like and just like when I really understood what who I was as an ace person and so it was interesting to just accidentally being attracted to someone and like being in because like I know that it rarely happens to me that I'm attracted to someone, and so it's neither romantic it's neither sexual but it's still an attraction and so having that feeling, that attraction it was interesting to see how I could make that relationship work like it was not like a serious relationship so to say like it's very serious to me because it helped me so much and I had such a nice time and it 

(01:05:00)

ALINE: it means something to me that relationship, but like I realized you know I tried to see what intimacy was and to me I realized it was just like being naked in bed and watching cartoons. Or at least with with that person that's what it meant, and so I think it's also very important to just talk about all those moments of intimacy and how when we feel intimate with someone and I don't think it's actually even for like allo people I don't think it's sex, not most of the time because like I mean how many allo couples actually have sex? Not that many! Like I'm a parent I know people don't have sex

KAYLA: yeah it seems people make it way bigger part of intimacy than it actually is, but yeah intimacy can be anything it doesn't have to be physical at all and so yeah I also really enjoyed you talked about that. Because yeah especially for ace people who do want to be in relationships and are trying to figure out how to make that work and how do you have intimacy in whatever way it is like difficult to figure out when everyone is telling you the only way to have intimacy is to have a bunch of sex 

ALINE: no no it's not. You can just be naked

KAYLA: You can just be naked without sex did you know?

SARAH: did you know? I actually do have one more thing that I want to talk about just because I'm selfish and I'm obsessed with myself and I'm American, which is you said that our episode was it our little women episode that helped you kind of like realize your aromanticism? What what about it

KAYLA: Compliment us

SARAH: I’m just curious

ALINE: so it's interesting because like of course when I started listening or not of course but like when I started listening to your podcast I was already very comfortable comfortable with being ace it took me a long time but I, I finally got to that point and and so of course I read about aromanticism for so many times and like I think it's in the podcast like I was like yeah but that's not me because first of all I love romantic comedy I'm in love with with Heath Ledger, so like no that's not me.

SARAH: (laughing) Can’t be me

ALINE: and also I was like yeah but I had a crush between like when I was in junior high and listening and I remember going to see Little Women and I was obsessed with that movie the Greta Gerwig one and it's just like for days it was with me and then I listened to your podcast I it might have been the first episode I've ever listened to? Maybe I've saw someone referencing it I can't remember how I stumbled onto your podcast and then I was listening to what you were saying and I was like I don't know it just clicked

SARAH: Yeah

ALINE: like it's funny how it took me so long to like accept that I was asexual and just like just listening to you listening to you to talk about Jo March and then like I was like okay well I guess I gotta use that word now

SARAH: Alright

ALINE: like this is how I'm doing that today. Again it goes to like having the right definition and not just the definition, but understanding the nuance you know like understanding and I love like what Alice Oseman says about that you know like you can love romantic comedies and not being into and not feeling romances just as you can love horror movies and not wanting to be dead 

SARAH: (laughing) yeah

ALINE: it just and I think that plus reading Angela Chen's book about like our like how little we know, how hard it is for us to differentiate different type of feelings and attractions and then suddenly I just looked back at everything you know I was like well over my 30s and then in my 30s but like over 30, and then I looked back and I was like yeah, that was not a crush. That was just you finding for the first time someone you actually wanted to friend with, to be friend with and like you wanted that person to like you back. It's like completely different and and it just like suddenly like everything just hit me, and I was like yes hearing it with a narrative you know having like an example it just changed everything because suddenly it humanized this concept and you can actually relate to and that's one of the reasons why with that podcast but more generally it was like all of my work. I always try to add a narrative around it

(01:10:00)

ALINE: because I do feel like you understand better when it's about with a story. It's like the basis of storytelling. It's like it's because we're people that we connect to stories so 

SARAH: yeah I mean storytelling is such a basic part of humanity and people like to be like well sex and romance are a basic part of no you know what's more basic to humanity? Storytelling 

ALINE: Storytelling

SARAH: we have done this since the beginning of time, and the reason why you think sex and romance are an important part of humanity is because of the storytelling that we have told over the years to make you think that.

ALINE: it's you know I'm working on this right now like the construction of the romantic feeling and the fact that just the word the very word romantic is just a recent creation, and before that there were no words to describe what feels now. Like everybody tells us like it's natural like romance you'll know it when you'll know it blah blah blah but it is a recent concept. It's been a social construct because people wanted to sell books it's just and sell patriarchy too. It's just it's just insane but people just didn't know didn't have that concept in their head before. Like intimacy was completely different you'll court someone sure but like it was not what we like what we imagine as romantic right now, and like being in a marriage,  that was not romantic either like this is just brand new when you look at the whole history of humanity, and I just think it's so fascinating that even something that like everybody tells you you cannot describe it. There's no way of defining it and like there must be because it's not that obvious. Like there were no words for it until recently. There must be a way to to to be more nuanced and when it comes to like how we love people. It's just love is a social construct that's… 

SARAH: everything is a social construct. Nothing is real. We're in a simulation

KAYLA: we live in a society

SARAH: alright well I think that actually covers everything I wanted to talk about. I mean I know we've been talking for quite a while, but Aline is there anything that you want to say about the podcast that you your podcast, I guess, or also ours but mostly yours that we haven't hit on yet?

ALINE: no I mean just go listen to it and discover what's in the the rest of the episode that you haven't heard in that very cool podcast that is sounds fake but okay

KAYLA: yes everyone go subscribe so you can get all the episodes because right now as we're recording this there's only two out. I assume by the time this comes out there might be another one but everyone go subscribe

SARAH: Kayla listened to it before I did and she texted me and she was like Sarah this is so good

KAYLA: I was like this is really good, actually. This is actually really good

SARAH: and then I listened to it and I was like you're right this is really good no wonder it won at Tribeca

KAYLA: it won! 

SARAH: Amazing, alright. Well what's our poll for this week? Have you listened have you listened are you Tribeca? Are you a winner? Aline's answer is yes 

KAYLA: did you win Tribeca and there'll only be one yes answer and it'll be Aline 

ALINE: maybe you have stars listening to your podcast 

KAYLA: maybe. We don't even know. Everyone could be a winner

ALINE:  like we have very few stars like public figures who are ace and out so like you're out there we know you are. We're not the only ones

KAYLA: there has to be more

ALINE: Come out

SARAH: let's go yeah. Yeah have have you listened to free from desire and if not why?

KAYLA: why

 SARAH: tell, be honest are you really busy?

KAYLA: it's okay if you're busy I guess but like you can listen in the car

 SARAH: yeah 

KAYLA: they’re only 30 minutes

ALINE: I had one person in France that uh messaged me last week saying I'm finally listening to free from desire I I was too afraid to do it before because I knew it would shake me and I was like okay that's one very good reason to not listen to it

KAYLA: that's true you're not gonna be you gotta be mentally prepared. that's how I feel about watching a sad movie I have to be ready to be sad you know. yeah that's valid that's fair I guess

ALINE: and don't watch little women if you're not ready to face the fact that you're aromantic

KAYLA: yep yeah or cry you gotta be

SARAH: or just cry, you'll just cry a lot

KAYLA: yeah it's so good though you gotta watch it you have anyway alright cool yeah our poll listen listen to free from desire or else. Kayla what is your beef and your juice for this week? 

(01:15:00)

KAYLA: My beef is I had a headache for all of yesterday and I almost made it go away and then it came back and it was and it was there for no reason and it was really annoying. Stupid. My juice is I had one… and I forgot. Oh I went on a I feel like I talked about this at the end of last episode but I went on

SARAH: Your Taylor Swift cruise?

KAYLA: yeah I went on a Taylor Swift boat cruise party thing yesterday

SARAH: for the record we're recording this two days later than the last episode so like not much has happened

KAYLA: not much has happened in my life but it was fun everyone. I like I didn't know all the songs I only know the hits, you know and so but everyone knew all the songs and everyone was dressed up in their little outfits and it was very cute

SARAH: did they do the 10 minute version of 

KAYLA: Yes they did. the DJ was like do you want to be sad for three minutes or 10 minutes 

SARAH: or 10 minutes

KAYLA:  then we were sad for 10 minutes

SARAH: what the fuck is the name of that song why can't I remember it 

KAYLA: all too well

SARAH: all too well yeah

KAYLA: I had fun on the boat 

SARAH: good I'm happy for you my beef is that you know how last year okay there's been a lot of drama about the target pride collection I'm not even gonna get into that but you know how last year they had the cat toys that were little mice?

KAYLA: Yes

SARAH: and they had little flags and I got really excited and I bought them for bogey because one of them was an ace flag this year they did that again except they changed some of the flags

KAYLA: (gasps) is there no ace mouse?

SARAH: there's no ace mouse and there is no lesbian mouse 

SARAH: Hi, this is Sarah from the future they also had no bi mouse. They said pan mice only boo hiss, I mean we support the pansexuals and the panromantics but girl bestie not this bi erasure too ace bi and lesbian erasure oh how 2018

KAYLA: that's yeah

SARAH: it's like just add more mice just yeah

KAYLA: they didn't need to switch the mice

SARAH: just do you don't need to pull them out just don't pull them out you know what you could do you know what you could do you could make more money off of this you can have different versions 

KAYLA: how much money does it really cost to make a couple extra like these are probably like 50 cent mice that are being made in China right?  like they’re not expensive mice

SARAH: Yeah like just make multiple different types of packs so that people have to buy multiple packs to more money they can make so much more foolish I hate that um my juice is uh uh bagels 

KAYLA: Sarah did stuff her face with a bagel right before 

SARAH: I did I really did and I ate I did eat the rest of it during this just very casually

KAYLA: I didn't even notice

SARAH: and carefully um I don't even know alright. Aline what is your beef and your juice for this week?

ALINE: I have so many beefs but like none are interesting I'm just changing apartments changing cities and like everything from like the bank emailing me that finally the the loan rate will be higher than expected and like trying to find a new daycare for my kid and all of that so I feel like my life is full of beefs right now

SARAH: yeah no moving is horrible and when you're a kid you hear adults talk about how moving is horrible and you're like yeah you know you're in this new place no there are so many things to deal with I hate it or yeah 

KAYLA: annoying 

ALINE: and my juice I don't know. winning Tribeca

SARAH: yeah 

KAYLA: I guess

SARAH: I think that's a very good juice

KAYLA: just a casual Tribeca win I guess

ALINE: yeah that was literally yesterday so like I'm still processing with you so sorry for the uh listeners who think that I talk about myself too much but I'm like

KAYLA: you deserve it. As you should though, you won

SARAH: like also if they listen to this podcast they have a pretty good tolerance for people who talk about themselves

KAYLA: it's true because that's all we do so they're gonna be mad about that

ALINE: I feel like I'm gonna be a one-hit wonder 

KAYLA: No

ALINE: and you know like it's just it's just amazing everything that's happening with Free From Desire and I like maybe it won't be the case maybe so many great things are gonna happen but like I feel like this might be the most epic project that I do of my life like how many times do you think I'm gonna win a prize an award of that magnitude and be on the cover of one of my favorite magazines like 

SARAH: seven billion

ALINE: I don't think it's gonna happen again and it's it should be normal because like that is not normal so I'm like

SARAH: let's go for another!

ALINE: I'm gonna need to enjoy it a lot yeah 

KAYLA: no you should enjoy it all you can but I also think it'll happen again because 

SARAH: Yes and even if it's even if this is your biggest achievement that is a really fucking awesome achievement really 

KAYLA: much bigger than most people's biggest achievement I think yeah so good for you and

ALINE: also my my juice is being here with you 

(01:20:00)

ALINE: it's just great to like be on the other side like after listening to so many episodes I'm like wow on the other side

SARAH: wow it's exactly it's exactly the same on the other side

KAYLA: they're just just as chaotic amazing

SARAH: alright well thank you so so much Aline for joining us. Where can the people of the internet find you? not at your new house that's that's for sure 

ALINE: I was actually thinking about it on, like walking back to my home for this interview and like I think I need to change my twitter and instagram handle because like it's dates back from like an old life and it's very hard to like spell it in english 

SARAH: I see so we'll link it

ALINE: my name social media it's Aline Laurent-Mayard just go on the on the podcast and check the spell

KAYLA: I just looked up free from desire on instagram and that's how I found you so you could also try that yeah because it like popped up with your little post about free from desire and I was like oh there they are yeah 

SARAH: and for the Americans listening to this podcast because the world revolves around us I am going to um pronounce Aline's name in a horribly American way so hopefully help you spell it okay it's Aline Laurent Mayard that is the American the American way if that helps anyone

KAYLA: it doesn't sound as cool that way 

SARAH: it doesn't 

KAYLA: You make everything sound so boring

SARAH: alright yeah follow Aline uh listen to the podcast it's fucking great. Go team uh let's jump to Sarah from the future for our patrons. Hey it's Sarah from the future I hope you're doing even better than you were two minutes ago when we last spoke. I'm here for your patrons we have a new two dollar patron it is Stav Leving Levinger Levinger. Stav Levinger (pronounced with a hard g). Stav Levinger? (pronounced with a soft g) I'm sorry. I'm sorry for that but thank you for your support. And if you tell me how to pronounce your name I will say it again next week. Our five dollar patrons who are promoting this week are Scott Ainslie, Sofia P, Tall_Darryl, and The Forest Pigeon and also you know what? we just for this week you guys get a special spotlight congratulations on existing. Our ten dollar patrons who are promoting this week first of all it says that we got a new patron and that new patron is Purple Hayes. Purple Hayes we've been promoting you this whole time were you ever not a patron were you did you revoke your patronage and we didn't notice? Either way we've been promoting you and so we're still going to promote the host club for you, which is their friends podcast let me know if you want to change that um our other ten dollar patrons who are pointing something this week are Arcnes who would like to promote the Trevor Project, Alyson who would like to promote Arden Grey by Ray Stoeve, Ben MacLeod who would like to promote huh, and Benjamin Ybarra who would like to promote tabletop games Benjamin Ybarra such an OG just remarkable. Our other ten dollar patrons are Boston Smith, David Harris, Derick and Carissa, Elle Bitter, my aunt Jeannie, Koolin, Maggie Capalbo, Martin Chiesl, Mattie, potater, Barefoot Backpacker, ruby, SongofStorm the steve and Zirklteo, our 15 dollar patrons are Andrew Hillum who would like to promote the invisible spectrum podcast, changeling and Alex the ace cat starshipchangeling.net, oh my god . clickforcaroline who would like to promote ace of hearts, Dia Chappell, twitch.tv/melodydia. oh no I scrolled oh I got lost oh dear Hector Murillo who would like to promote friends who support of constructive and help you grow as a better person john young who would like to promote Maff who would like to promote catching up on the podcast after two years, Nathaniel White nathanieljwhitedesigns.com, Kayla's Aunt Nina KateMaggartart.com and sara jones who's @eternallolli everywhere our 20 dollar patrons are sabrina Hauck merry christmas and dragonfly who would like to promote um our book event happening this friday at literati bookstore in Ann Arbor, Michigan um if you're still here this deep into the podcast and you're still listening and you didn't just skip over all the patrons you're a real one and I hope to see you there okay bye. Thanks  Sarah from the future, that was compelling

KAYLA: thank you so much  Sarah wow that's my favorite version of  Sarah. Sarah  I'm talking to right now sucks

SARAH: I know but alright that kind of covers it Aline thank you again so much for joining us. We had a delightful time 

KAYLA: Thank you

ALINE: Thank you for having me it was pretty cool

SARAH: yes um and again listen to Aline's podcast or else how does this podcast end what do I say

KAYLA: thank you so much for listening tune in that. I'll just do it thank you so much for listening tune in next sunday for more of us in your ears 

SARAH: and until then take good care of your cows 

KAYLA: we did a switcheroo 

SARAH: oh my god wow

(01:24:55)