Ep 288: Compersion
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SARAH: Hey, what's up? Hello! Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl I'm Sarah, that's me.
KAYLA: And a bi-demisexual girl, that's me, Kayla.
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.
KAYLA: On today's episode, compersion.
BOTH: Sounds Fake But Okay.
[Intro Music]
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod.
KAYLA: I'm so sleepy.
SARAH: Wake up, it's compersion time.
KAYLA: I know. Here's the problem is I’ve recently discovered that if I have a medium-sized Dunkin' Refresher around noon on recording day, I make it through recording with a good amount of energy, but I'm still able to fall asleep soon after. And today I didn't feel like going and getting one, so I was like, oh, I'll have an orange pop with lunch. No caffeine, but a lot of sugar.
SARAH: Yeah. You needed that calf.
KAYLA: I did, and I still wasn't feeling it, so then I had a ginger ale, and I was like, still not caffeine, it's way too late for that now, but more sugar. And it didn't work.
SARAH: And here I am, drinking my caffeine.
KAYLA: Yeah, but caffeine doesn't do the same things to you, if anything.
SARAH: I'm too powerful.
KAYLA: Yeah, you're too ADHD.
SARAH: All right, I don't think we have any housekeeping, do we?
KAYLA: I don't know.
SARAH: Okay, Kayla, what are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: This week, we are talking about compersion.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Yep.
SARAH: We really struggled coming up with a topic this week.
KAYLA: Well, I thought I had one, and then I looked back, and it turns out we had already done it.
SARAH: Yeah, I thought we might have, but I didn't have time today to think about things because of what I will discuss during the juice and beef section.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Mostly beef, to be clear, not juice. None of that. So, we just sat here and tried to figure something out, and we were looking up random articles, and we're talking about compersion.
KAYLA: It's true.
SARAH: Compersion.
KAYLA: C-O-M-P-E-R-S-I-O-N. Compersion.
SARAH: That is correct.
KAYLA: Thank you very much.
SARAH: Now that we've gotten the spelling bee out of the way...
KAYLA: Yeah, I think we should start doing that. Every topic, we should just do a little bee, you know?
SARAH: Yeah, okay. Let's define compersion. I will say that I had actually never heard of this word until we were going through our quotes for our book.
KAYLA: Yeah. Same, I think.
SARAH: And somebody used it in one of their responses and we were like, what does that mean? And we looked it up and we were like, oh, that's fun. And now we're doing a podcast about it. Let me read to you. According to Master Class, okay? She can't hear me. She doesn't know what's going on. You didn't even hear who I got this from.
KAYLA: Nope.
SARAH: Master Class. This is from Master Class.
KAYLA: Wow. Okay, Master Class. On what? What's the class?
SARAH: Compersion meaning. Compersion and monogamy and polyamory.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: Okay, so Master Class says, the word compersion refers to a form of joy in the joy of others. In the world of consensually non-monogamous relationships, it more specifically relates to the happiness someone finds in their partner seeking out and enjoying sexual and romantic intimacy with other people. So, this word was actually coined in the polyamorous community. It was coined in the early 90s by the Kerista community, which was San Francisco based and has since disbanded. But they called it the feeling of taking joy in the joy that others you love share among themselves. So, it actually was created in this context of polyamory in regards and reference to your partner's getting sexual and romantic intimate thumbs up from other people. Have you found it?
KAYLA: I was looking for the quote… of the quote.
SARAH: Kayla has been not paying attention for two minutes.
KAYLA: Yeah, and you've never done that.
SARAH: She's looking for the quote. Why didn't you just pull up the PDF of our book and find the word?
KAYLA: Hmm. Now there would have been an idea. Wait, I found it.
SARAH: Hit me with it.
KAYLA: A reading from the book of Sounds Fake But Okay. Chapter four? Page 78.
SARAH: The book of Whompsed.
KAYLA: Oh, the book of Romance and Partnerships. So sorry.
SARAH: No, I meant who wrote the quote.
KAYLA: Oh yes, a reading from the book of Anita.
SARAH: Okay.
KAYLA: She/her, asexual, panromantic.
SARAH: Great. That's what they do in church too.
KAYLA: Yeah, they really should. So, she said…
SARAH: Jesus, all pronouns.
KAYLA: All pronouns. Literally. “I have benefited greatly from the open polyamorous setup that I currently have. It is incredibly freeing to be in a relationship that fulfills me romantically without feeling the guilt slash obligation slash sadness.” This is weird because you read this quote when we did the audio book.
SARAH: I did.
KAYLA: And now I'm like, what am I doing here reading this? Anyway
SARAH: You're the best.
KAYLA: “Slash sadness of being unable to fulfill my partner's sexual desires. I love to participate in a romantic evening with my partners and then set up the bedroom for them to have a special time together while I go play video games or read or whatever. The feeling of compersion is incredible and the hugs afterward are my favorite. I feel included in the intimacy and emotional closeness without needing to get involved in sex.” Slay
SARAH: Slay. Thanks, Anita.
KAYLA: Thanks, Anita. I also remember when we were going through our first round of edits on the book that the editor was like, what is this word? And we were like, I swear, it's real.
SARAH: We also said, it's okay, we had to Google it too.
KAYLA: Yes, but I just think it's interesting that…
SARAH: Yeah. It's very specific. It's like a situation where, according to whatiscompersion.com…
KAYLA: Oh, slay
SARAH: That's where I got the information of who coined it.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Oh, for a second, oh, damn, I thought it was going to tell me the etymology of where they got the word from, but actually, no, they're just talking about Buddhists.
KAYLA: Damn, we could have done a whole spelling bee if we had the etymology.
SARAH: Truly. So, I don't know exactly what the etymology of the word specifically is, but it's interesting that they came up with a completely new word rather than co-opting another one.
KAYLA: Right, which, like, it's very exciting, I mean, thinking about it, so in this, or another article Sarah found, the Pincus Center for Inclusive…
SARAH: Tremera Pincus
KAYLA: Inclusive Treatment and Education? It looks like…
SARAH: I don't know who this is. It's called, “What is Compersion and Polyamory and Why Don't I Have It?” by Rebecca Rose Vasey.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: Approximately nine-minute reading time.
KAYLA: But when they're in the section about just, like, what is compersion, they give the standard definition and they say it's like the opposite of…
SARAH: Schadenfreude?
KAYLA: Schadenfreude, which is the German thing where you're happy…
SARAH: Schadenfreude
KAYLA: When someone else is upset, right?
SARAH: Yes, it's like you're happy that other people are suffering.
KAYLA: Which is just interesting because I don't even think in English we don't have a word for that.
SARAH: We just use schadenfreude.
KAYLA: Right, and so of course we wouldn't have a word.
SARAH: Yeah, like if Elon Musk faceplants into a puddle, I have schadenfreude. And if my friend who loves puddles jumps in that puddle on purpose…
KAYLA: Compersion
SARAH: Perhaps you could have some compersion.
KAYLA: Exactly. I just… yeah, I think it's interesting that they had to create a whole new word because, yeah, there isn't in the English language really a lot of words for feelings that relate to other people, I guess, other than like, I guess there's like jealousy or like...
SARAH: Yeah, they're all kind of like big umbrella words where like there might be more specific words, but nobody knows them. Like they're not well known. And you know those Germans, they just...
KAYLA: Have words for everything.
SARAH: Well, it's because they just put words together. Like schaden means like... Like if you in German, if you say like schade, that means like too bad. So, like they just… they're just shoving words together and making it mean things.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And you know what? German borrows a lot of English words, so it's only fair that we borrow some back.
KAYLA: That's fair.
SARAH: Okay. Then Rebecca goes on to say, to like think of it as, have you ever felt really happy when you saw your partner blissed out over something that didn't directly involve you? Maybe you love seeing them immersed in their favorite hobby that you don't understand, or you felt really proud of their work achievement, or your heart swelled up when you saw them playing with their beloved nibbling or pet they adore.
KAYLA: Not the…
SARAH: Nibbling. Which again, doesn't have to be your partner. It can be like, it's literally just like... Compersion is really just like, I'm happy you're happy.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: You know?
KAYLA: It is, yeah.
SARAH: Like that is basically what it is.
KAYLA: It's the feeling of seeing someone you're close to being happy about something and that also bringing you joy knowing that they are happy about something.
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SARAH: It's like saying, I love that for you.
KAYLA: Yes. True
SARAH: And therefore, I love it for me.
KAYLA: True. Well, in this article, the one… the Rebecca article, she talks about how it's not so much a constant state, but a peak moment. It's when you realize you feel great, that your partner is feeling great, and then you get the added benefit of feeling great that you feel great about them feeling great.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Which is funny.
SARAH: Yeah. Oh, and they also mention like if you're not partnered, think about how many times you've been excited for a dear friend who started dating someone great. Like…
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like I'm happy that you're in a good, happy relationship. I'm happy that you have other good, strong, platonic relationships.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: I'm happy you're happy, baby.
KAYLA: I love that for you, queen.
SARAH: Well, according to Master Class, do you want to listen to what Master Class, well, what Esther Perel at Master Class says how to foster compersion?
KAYLA: Oh, that sounds fun.
SARAH: Okay. So, for compersion to be a positive experience, you must learn to subdue any possessive tendencies.
KAYLA: That seems a little…
SARAH: Subdue the possessive tendencies.
KAYLA: I feel like getting rid of all of it seems slightly unachievable, but okay.
SARAH: Well, we're just subduing.
KAYLA: Right.
SARAH: We're not eliminating.
KAYLA: Okay that's fair, because I just feel like total elimination is a little impossible, probably.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But subduing, I suppose we can manage.
SARAH: The first thing, allow complexity. Compersion might be primarily a positive emotion, but it's possible to feel negative emotions alongside it. You might even experience jealousy at the exact same time you experience compersion. The human heart is complex. Allow yourself to feel all your emotions.
KAYLA: I love that.
SARAH: That's true, because sometimes it's like your friend has another really great friend, or they have a partner, or whatever, and you're like, I'm so happy for them, I'm so happy that they're getting this, and it's clearly very fulfilling for them, but I'm also jealous that they're not spending time with me.
KAYLA: Yeah, 100%. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I think jealousy, when it gets to a point obviously can be very harmful, but I also think there's a lot of jealousy that's just very natural. There's a lot of shame around it, but it's like, as long as you're managing it correctly, you know?
SARAH: I think jealousy on its own is a completely a neutral thing, and it's just how you react to that jealousy that makes it positive or negative. It's not really ever positive, but that makes it negative.
KAYLA: Yeah, no, I agree. Because having the feeling is obviously something you can't control, but then yes, acting upon it or becoming possessive or lashing out or something, that's obviously...
SARAH: There is no morality attached to feeling jealous.
KAYLA: Well, actually, if you were to go to the Ten Commandments, you're not supposed to covet thy neighbor, Sarah.
SARAH: What if I want to covet my neighbor's dog?
KAYLA: Or his wife or whatever. Isn't it you're not supposed to covet his wife? Is that part of it?
SARAH: I don't give a fuck.
KAYLA: I know. Neither do I, but now I have to know.
SARAH: And like, part of... as I was saying that, oh my god, as I was saying that, part of me was like, well, you know, if like you're really jealous in like a toxic way, but it's like, no, that's not the problem of the jealousy.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: That's the problem of how you're reacting to the jealousy.
KAYLA: Oh, thou shalt... you shall not covet your neighbor's wife. Or his male or female servant, or his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor. Well, that's quite specific.
SARAH: What about his ass? They already said donkey.
KAYLA: I did not know that was the full text of that. That's actually so crazy.
SARAH: A little bit of a run on there. Okay, the next way to foster compersion is…
KAYLA: Yes, perfect
SARAH: To accept jealousy.
KAYLA: Very true
SARAH: If you're trying to foster a sense of sexual compersion for your partner, be ready to feel romantic jealousy along the way. Still, this jealousy can act as an educator. Ask yourself why you feel this way, especially if your partner remains just as devoted to you as they did before you both started exploring new relationships. If you accept jealousy as one of many emotions, you'll have a better chance of learning to control it.
KAYLA: I think that's an excellent point. I think jealousy is a very good compass for figuring out if something is wrong with something the other person is doing or if there's insecurity within yourself. Especially if you're in a consensual, non-monogamous relationship and everyone is following all of the rules that you set out but you still feel jealous. It's like, okay, is someone not spending as much time as was agreed to? Is there an insecurity about the relationship?
SARAH: Am I not feeling loved and appreciated?
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: Or is maybe non-monogamy just not for me?
KAYLA: Yeah, fair. Completely fair. It's absolutely not for everyone.
SARAH: And I feel like so often people think about polygamy as like everyone, not polyamory, well they think of polyamory as polygamy.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: Where it's like everyone is in a relationship with each other.
KAYLA: No
SARAH: I guess polygamy is more like a guy has 45 wives.
KAYLA: Polygamy is when one man has many wives but the wives have no relation. We don't like polygamy.
SARAH: Okay. You’re right. People think about polyamory…
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: Oftentimes as everyone is in a relationship with everyone.
KAYLA: Like a closed loop.
SARAH: Yes, but that is I would say probably most of the time not the case.
KAYLA: Yeah, I would think so. That seems unlikely.
SARAH: Because you have your little constellation, right?
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: So, I think, you know.
KAYLA: Metamores.
SARAH: Yes, indeed. And so I think it's more words that we learn from our polyamory.
KAYLA: I know. I already knew. Actually, I already knew metamores, but.
SARAH: I don't know anything.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: But like it's good to consider those things because it's like if you are in a polyamorous relationship, they may be going to someone for some sort of fulfillment to a person that you don't know or you don't have a relationship with. And like that can be hard.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But that's what you agreed to, dog.
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: All right. Next, be honest. If you feel negative emotions about your partner finding happiness with others, be honest with yourself and your partner about how they affect you. These feelings might be a speed bump on the road to happy and consensual non monogamy, or they might be proof you're happier in a completely monogamous relationship. I just said that.
KAYLA: Dude, we should be teaching this Master Class.
SARAH: Remind yourself it's okay to be polyamorous or monogamous. In either case, the most important things are openness and honesty. Practicing emotional vulnerability can strengthen a couple's relationship. Next, define what compersion means to you. While feelings of compersion are common in polyamory, you can experience these positive emotions in a monogamous context as well. Talk with your partner about the relationships the two of you have outside of your own, whether they're friendly or romantic. Discuss what makes you comfortable, what makes you uncomfortable, and why and how you find happiness in relationships with others. Set boundaries.
KAYLA: Wow.
SARAH: Next, learn from discomfort. Feelings of jealousy and discomfort might be a sign you have unmet needs in your primary relationship.
KAYLA: I literally said that! Oh my God
SARAH: Pay attention to your feelings, observe them mindfully rather than allow them to make you reactive.
KAYLA: Oh my god!
SARAH: I want to be clear that we did not read this before.
KAYLA: Of course we didn't. We never read it before. Of course, we didn't. We're literally just geniuses.
SARAH: Discomfort often makes it possible for you to grow more than you would ever have been able to otherwise. Practice empathy. Finding happiness in your partner's happiness is as much the definition of compersion as it is of empathy. Take a second to recognize your partner's own feelings of joy, whether in their friendly or romantic relationships. Realize their happiness in spending quality time with other people has no negative effect on their happiness in spending time with you. I think that's important. It's like, I don't know, I was going to have a metaphor. But then I was thinking about this thing in elementary school where you have a bucket.
KAYLA: Bucket dippers?
SARAH: Yeah. You don't want to be a bucket dipper.
KAYLA: You don't want to be a bucket dipper.
SARAH: If you're mean to someone, you're dipping into their bucket and you're taking their shit out of their bucket.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: But that actually didn't go with the metaphor I was trying to make, but it was all I could think of.
KAYLA: Well, I think you could think about it as, because when you're nice to someone, you're adding to their bucket. So, you could think of just because someone else is adding a teaspoon to your partner's bucket it doesn't make your teaspoon less good.
SARAH: Go away
KAYLA: Good. They're both still in the bucket.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: They're just together now.
SARAH: And like your partner has infinite amounts of teaspoon to…
KAYLA: Your bucket is infinite
SARAH: Give to whoever they want.
KAYLA: Infinite bucket.
SARAH: The bucket is on it. You just did… you did infinite.
KAYLA: Shut up! Oh, brother. I'm sick. I'm quitting the podcast. I'm sick.
SARAH: Okay, bye. I don't even remember what I was saying. You distracted me by saying infinite.
KAYLA: Who cares? Who cares anymore?
SARAH: Okay. Realize their happiness in spending quality time with other people has no negative effect on their happiness in spending time with you. Try to see things from their perspective as you explore what compersion can mean for both of you. And finally, take small steps. As you open yourself up to experiencing compersion of one variety or another, take things slow. Prioritize the mental health and well-being of both your partner and yourself. There's no need to jump into a polyamorous relationship if either of you are not ready or interested. Consensual non-monogamy can be a component of compersion, but it doesn't have to be.
KAYLA: I also think that's a really good point we made in the book, and that I think is especially...
SARAH: You know what we said? That wasn’t really smart.
[00:20:00]
KAYLA: You know what? She has what we said in there, but that you should buy. That was really smart. No, listen. And it's not like we created the point. It's the point lots of people make. But especially for aspecs who I think we've heard from a lot of aspecs, say that they feel a need to be in a polyamorous relationship because they feel like that's the only way they will get into a romantic or sexual relationship at all because they feel like they are not going to be able to find a partner who's okay with never having sex. We had a lot of people contact us throughout the book for quotes and everything that that's what they said. And we made the point in our book, like it is not going to be helpful if you get into a polyamorous relationship because you feel like you have to, and not because you actually want to. That's going to cause more damage than anything.
SARAH: Like maybe this is just the non-dating aro-ace in me, but to me I look at that and I'm like, I feel like that would be way more painful to force yourself into a polyamorous relationship if that's not what's right for you than to not have a relationship at all.
KAYLA: I mean, logically I would agree with you, but thinking about how strongly society pushes us to be in relationships, I think...
SARAH: Again, as I said, that could have been the non-dating aro-ace in me.
KAYLA: No, I know. As much as conservatives do not like polyamory, I think they would probably rather people be in polyamorous relationships than no relationships, unfortunately.
SARAH: Because then the human race would end.
KAYLA: Exactly, because they need more people to work in their factories.
SARAH: Capitalism.
KAYLA: Anyway!
SARAH: Capitalism! We live in a capitalist hellscape. But thanks, Esther.
KAYLA: I love that.
SARAH: It's pretty good.
KAYLA: So, this article by Rebecca
SARAH: Rebecca
KAYLA: Rebecca, our girl, I don't know. I don't know their gender, actually.
SARAH: I was they-theming that.
KAYLA: Sorry, Rebecca.
SARAH: Recently a friend of mine they-themed me, like twice in a row.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And I was like, oh, okay.
KAYLA: People have they-themed you to me.
SARAH: It doesn't usually happen within sight or ear shot of me.
KAYLA: Ear shot. I mean, just saying, Sarah. It's creeping up.
SARAH: Did you know?
KAYLA: The prophecy.
SARAH: The prophecy. Okay, continue.
KAYLA: Anyway, Rebecca was… there's a section in Rebecca's article about is compersion necessary? Do you have to have compersion to be in a polyamorous relationship? And they talk about how, no, it's not necessary. You know, non-monogamy is all about communicating. You don't necessarily have to feel this huge sense of joy to understand and be totally okay with what's going on. But that just led me to think about when compersion is lacking, I think specifically in monogamous relationships. Because I feel like in society in general, in culture in general, there's this idea of being very possessive over your partner.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And they can't have friends.
SARAH: I'm the only one that can make you happy.
KAYLA: Right, you can't have friends of the opposite sex. I feel like I've even seen partners get upset when their partner spends too much time with people who are friends, not even a romantic or sexual interest. And just kind of the monogamous need to fulfill all of that person's needs and desires. And I think that's a symptom of putting romantic relationships on such a high pedestal. Then you have this end-all be-all relationship, you expect it to fulfill all of your emotional and physical and every need when it just doesn't. So, it's just, I don't know, it's... I don’t know
SARAH: One relationship is not going to fulfill all of your needs, and in fact it probably shouldn't, because then if that relationship ends, what do you have?
KAYLA: Yeah, it's not the most healthy. And also, just the idea that one person is going to be good at all of what you need. Like I have friends I go to for different... if I'm asking for advice in different areas of life, I go to different friends for that.
SARAH: It's like if you see memes online, you don't always send every meme to the same people.
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: You like all the memes, but you know your friends and you know who's going to like which memes.
KAYLA: Yes, exactly.
SARAH: And you choose accordingly.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I think just looking specifically at what Rebecca wrote here under the “Is Compersion Necessary” header, I think it's interesting that she... I want to just read specifically what she said here, which is, I don't endorse the idea that being “correctly polyamorous” or otherwise non-monogamous requires us to be the right kind of happy, well-adjusted, free-spirited, or quote, chill, parentheses. Hook
KAYLA: Hook
SARAH: There's a strain of toxic positivity in polyamorous culture that tries to insist that real polyamorous folks are always expert-level communicators, are always sexually savvy, are always flexible and great at problem-solving, are always happy and open and welcoming, and of course, have gone up the mountain to become enlightened love masters who never, ever, ever feel jealousy. Bullshit, Rebecca goes on to say. Monogamous folks can be crap at communicating, we can fuck up relationships on epic scales, we can be petty, bitchy, selfish, close-minded, subject to the winds of our mental illnesses and trauma, and yes, jealous. Unfortunately, being under constant suspicion and criticism from the monogamous world has made a lot of us want to hastily plaster over the holes in our relationship walls and pretend that we are all always doing just great. Thanks for asking. I think that's an important point because I often think that when monogamous people look at polyamorous people, they think that the polyamorous people think they're better than the monogamous people. Like monogamous people look at polyamorous people and they're like, you think you're better than me, you think you're more evolved than me, you think you understand whatever in a higher way. But that's just like, I'm sure there are some people that think that.
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: But there are some people that think everything. I think it's important to kind of strip away those expectations. Then because monogamous people have these expectations of non-monogamous people of being all hoity-toity, they feel the need to telegraph perfect relationships. Because otherwise, because if their relationships are messy, then you're going to have monogamous people being like, see? it's wrong. That's why it's bad. There will be judgement calls placed upon their relationships. And so, it's like, there's so much, as with literally everything, there's just a lot of unlearning we have to do based off of what society impressed upon us about what is right and real and normal.
KAYLA: Yeah. Well, I think the thing that monogamous people or people that just don't understand polyamory always say is like well how do you not get jealous, like I feel like that's the major holdup that people have is the jealousy aspect. And so, I think there's the idea that polyamorous people just must not be jealous. They're just like, they don't experience that, which I guess for some people that might be true. But I think the reality is that they just handle their jealousy differently. Like they don't like what the Master Class was saying, you know, like you and what we were saying in the beginning, like there's non-toxic ways to handle jealousy. There's more mature ways to look at your jealousy and try to understand what it's telling you. And I think that's the real difference.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Is that in monogamy, we're taught that jealousy is almost like a good thing and that we should feed into it to keep…
SARAH: That it is necessary?
KAYLA: Right. That like, yeah, that it's like, yeah, I don't know. Like I just I said earlier, like jealousy is natural. That's true. But I think there is an aspect, especially in straight relationships where it's really fed into that.
SARAH: It's also… in a hetero context, it's a control thing, too.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: It's often about the man controlling the woman.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And if he is jealous of what she's doing, it is her fault.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And so, like, there's that whole other layer of it there.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I think that's also part of the reason why people kind of believe polyamorous people to be all high and mighty, is because I think polyamorous people have to be a little bit more self-aware of their own relationship to jealousy.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And in order to have a healthy polyamorous relationship, you do kind of have to know yourself a little bit better in that way and be a little bit better at dealing with your emotions.
KAYLA: Well, I think that kind of goes for any non-normative relationship, really, because to even enter into a non-normative relationship, like polyamory, you have to know...
SARAH: You have to understand the norm.
KAYLA: You have to understand the norm first. You have to have the outside perspective of, like, okay, everyone is doing this, and it doesn't have to be that way. You have to have a little bit of outsider perspective, I feel like.
SARAH: And so, it's like, part of me wants to be like, maybe they are a little bit more evolved, because they clearly have a better understanding of it, but just because you have an understanding of it doesn't mean you have to embrace polyamory.
KAYLA: Right. Well, that's also...
SARAH: Those who do probably do have a better understanding of it. But as Rebecca said, there are still people who can be shit at communicating.
[00:30:00]
KAYLA: Yeah. I know people that have gotten into non-monogamous situations who did not do it ethically, and like it was not good. I think it also comes down to... I think we talked about this years ago, when one of our friends who's polyamorous came on, that there's a difference between identifying as polyamorous as part of your identity and...
SARAH: Practicing?
KAYLA: Practicing. And so I think some people can fall into practicing polyamory without necessarily that's what they were trying to do, and then there's other people who identify as polyamorous who are like, I just can never be in a monogamous relationship, this is part of my identity, this is how I date, this is just how it is.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And I think it's probably more common than we think that people fall into those situations, or get into it for the wrong reasons. Like we talked about an aspec person feeling like they have to, or wanting to date someone and the person says, well, we have to be non-monogamous if you want to date, whatever. I think there's the ideal that we think of two people being like, not two people, that's monogamous, several people being like, I am polyamorous and now we shall sit down and negotiate our polyamory contract, and this shall be our polyamorous relationship.
SARAH: And then we're going to have an orgy.
KAYLA: It's just not, you know, like, it's like any other relationship, there's like a natural buildup to it, and it's not always going to be perfect.
SARAH: It also just makes me think of, I mean, in this context I'm thinking about straight people, but it doesn't have to be straight people, who are like dating casually and seeing multiple people casually. Like, when I was younger, I've said this before, like, in my little, aro-ace, also just like teenage brain, to me, dating someone and being like boyfriend, girlfriend, like partners, was the same thing.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like, if you go on a date, you become like, together.
KAYLA: I even struggled with that, like, into college. Like, when I started dating in college, I was like, very clearly not looking at relationships and dating the way other… the people I was dating was. And it like, caused some issues.
SARAH: Yeah. And so, I think… where was I going with this?
KAYLA: You know what it's like? It's like on The Bachelor, because The Bachelor is being polyamorous. I don't care what you guys say.
SARAH: Oh, I remember. Let me finish.
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: Like, if you're dating several people casually, and maybe having sex with several people casually, like, that's considered okay and normal, unless you're like super conservative and think that you can't have sex before marriage. But at what point do those relationships become serious enough that it is considered polyamory? And I think a lot of self-identified straight people probably have kind of dipped into polyamory more than they realize.
KAYLA: Sure.
SARAH: Because they were just like, oh, I'm like dating around, I'm like seeing some people, these are my side hoes.
KAYLA: Yeah. Well, I think it comes down to the partnership. Like you are supposed, like by society's rules, you're supposed to have one partner. This is the person you are building your life with. So, I think when you get to a point in your relationship where that's where you are, you're only supposed to have one.
SARAH: Yeah, it's like a QPR. Like you have to define the relationship.
KAYLA: Well, yeah, it's like the difference between a friendship and a partnership is a friend, you are not necessarily making joint decisions the way you are with a partner, whether that partner is platonic or romantic.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: But yeah, I think that's for me personally, that's like how I would define when things get polyamorous is if that's a partner. But…
SARAH: Yeah, but you can you can still kind of like dabble a little bit, I think, without it really being.
KAYLA: Oh, yeah, sure. Well, then you also like this, like getting into a whole thing, but then there's people that practice polyamory in a way where it's like you have a primary partner. And then there's the other people you date. And it's like…
SARAH: Side hoes
KAYLA: So, you're probably making… they're not side hoes. You're probably making most of your life decisions with your primary partner. But then it's like these other people are your partners. But like, what kinds of decisions are you making with them? It's obviously not a clear cut.
SARAH: Side hoe decision
KAYLA: Definition of… no
SARAH: They know they're the side... They know they're the side hoes. They're fine with being side…
KAYLA: Well, they should know they’re side hoes. If it’s that cool
SARAH: That person to them is probably their side hoe too.
KAYLA: Well, if it's ethical, yes. Some people… in the book we read, we read a book for writing the book called Stepping Off the Relationship Escalator, which is…
SARAH: Bold of you to say that we read that book
KAYLA: I read a book for the book called Stepping Off the Relationship Escalator. It's mostly about polyamory, but just kind of about like relationship structures. And there was a lot of talk about how to ethically do polyamory and whether having a primary partner at all like is ethical. And people have lots of opinions either way about that. I am not knowledgeable enough to have any sort of opinion at all.
SARAH: Yeah. But ask Amy Gahran about that.
KAYLA: Yeah, ask Amy.
SARAH: Jumping back to The Bachelor that you briefly mentioned and then I interrupted to say my thing. I… so it just started the most recent season.
KAYLA: Yes, he plays tennis. I've seen in the commercials.
SARAH: He plays tennis. That his thing.
KAYLA: And someone said that… not one of the women plays tennis or is an athlete at all. And I'm like…
SARAH: Damn
KAYLA: He plays tennis.
SARAH: They were playing it at the gym when I was there and I was on the elliptical and then I stayed on the elliptical longer because I was like, I want to see him. Because they were doing the first introductions to all the girls and I was like, I have to see all of the introductions. Two of them are sisters. And they're not telling anyone at first.
KAYLA: Brother, why are they doing that? Does the guy know?
SARAH: No, no one knows. The whole thing is that them two are the only ones who know.
KAYLA: The producers knew what they were doing with that one.
SARAH: And at least at the beginning, they're pretending not to know each other.
KAYLA: Oh, the producers knew what they were doing with that one.
SARAH: And they were like, we thought we would do something fun together.
KAYLA: That's so funny.
SARAH: And then they were like, the one was like, you know, it was the younger sibling. She was like, I don't want to necessarily be defined by my sister. Like when they were talking about not telling everyone at first. And then immediately her lower third was So-and-So's little sister. And then it switches to the older one and it was So-and-So's big sister. And the rest of the episode, their lower thirds were just like So-and-So's sister.
KAYLA: I love when the editors get a little silly with the lower third.
SARAH: They love to get silly with them and they're so right for that.
KAYLA: It's my favorite genre of comedy, I think. That's wild. But what I was going to say about The Bachelor or like any of those kind of dating shows, like I remember we watched Farmer Wants a Wife several months back when I was preparing. It's coming back, new season. I'll probably watch it again. But all of the women, it was like five women per one farmer or whatever. But they would all live together on the farm. I know all the Bachelor women live together, but it's like a mansion. So, I have to assume they're not as close.
SARAH: It's not like Big Brother.
KAYLA: But the women became really good friends because they were just like city girls who now live on a farm together.
SARAH: Figuring it out.
KAYLA: It was interesting to watch them because they would be happy for each other for having a great date with the farmer. But then it's also like they would get jealous because they were like, well, I want the farmer to pick me. Or the farmer would do something annoying and they would get mad on behalf of the other ones. And it would come up as a fight with him on behalf of one of the other girls or whatever.
SARAH: It sounds like Bachelor were a little less catty.
KAYLA: It was
SARAH: Like a little less produced to be antagonistic.
KAYLA: Yeah, it was interesting, honestly, because there were definitely some tensions between girls. But it often felt like the most of the upsetness was with the farmers for how they were acting, not the girls.
SARAH: They said, I'm a girl's girl. Only girls girls on the farmer…
KAYLA: They were getting upset about the other people kissing or whatever in front of everyone. And then the girl would be like, sorry, and everyone would be like, whatever. And then they would be like, sorry. Anyway…
SARAH: That's funny. No, but even just the little bit of The Bachelor I saw, I didn't see the full episode. But there were already being like, some of their entries were a lot.
KAYLA: They always are.
SARAH: Someone came in on a go-kart, someone came in on a boat, someone came in on a tennis ref chair. Someone came, you know, okay, the girl who came in in a Christmas tree truck.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: I'll give her that because she grew up on a Christmas tree farm.
KAYLA: Okay, Taylor Swift.
SARAH: And also, like, she had a whole thing about how when she was 17, she started losing her hearing. And then she recently got a cochlear implant in one of her ears and how it has like changed her life and like whatever. And I was like, okay, good for you.
[00:40:00]
SARAH: But some of the other ones who like, they have, when they first talk to this man, they walk up to him, they hug him. They're like, I'm so-and-so. And he's like, I'm Joey. And they're like, we know. And they have like 20 seconds.
KAYLA: They have like one… they all do like one-liners.
SARAH: Yeah, they have like one, they essentially have one line.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And some of them, they're clearly just doing shit for… Because also at the end of the first night, doesn't he give a rose for the most memorable?
KAYLA: I think there's like a first impression rose.
SARAH: First impression rose, yeah. And so, some of the stuff that they were saying was just very raunchy. And I was like, this girl walked up with a platter with a bowl on it, like a fancy
KAYLA: A cloche.
SARAH: Yeah, sure. And on the plate were three bananas of different sizes.
KAYLA: Oh no, brother.
SARAH: And she was like, which one do you most identify with? And I was like…
KAYLA: I mean I hate that
SARAH: How could they be doing this?
KAYLA: But I can't really blame the women. You know it's like they're handlers that are like, okay, let's workshop your stupid entrance.
SARAH: I know, but you can tell which ones just want to become famous and then which ones…
KAYLA: They're not here for the right reasons.
SARAH: Want to find love, but also want to become famous. I don't think there's anyone on that show who isn't interested in some way.
KAYLA: No one goes on The Bachelor to actually find their relationship anymore.
SARAH: Or like there was this one girl who I kind of liked and then she was like, I've just met my husband. And I was like, never mind.
KAYLA: Oh my gosh, shut up.
SARAH: Also, surprisingly - now this is a Bachelor episode - surprisingly, I was surprised by the average age of The Bachelor contestants this year is apparently a lot older than in previous years.
KAYLA: Thank God.
SARAH: I was shook at how many of them were like 25, 26. And I was like, that's how old I am.
KAYLA: I am. Honestly, thank God. When they bring in like 21-year-olds, I'm like, what are you doing here?
SARAH: And the only one… again, I didn't see all the ones at the beginning. There were so many of them. Like they just like kept coming.
KAYLA: 20, I think.
SARAH: I think it was more than that.
KAYLA: I thought they started with 20.
SARAH: I mean, it seemed like more than that because they were… because like the girls didn't know how many other girls were going to come in.
KAYLA: Oh.
SARAH: Like I don't think they really…
KAYLA: They just wanted extra people this year.
SARAH: Yeah. And so, I didn't see all of them. But of the ones I saw, the youngest person I saw was 23. And she was actually previously on. Like she had been on… because he had been on The Bachelorette.
KAYLA: Sure, they always are.
SARAH: And then basically she had like a letter. And then she had gotten it at a previous time from somebody and then they had to open the letter together. I didn't stay long enough to see what the letter said.
KAYLA: Sure.
SARAH: But like so she had been around and she was the one who was like 23 and the rest of them were like 25, 26, 28, 31.
KAYLA: Wow
SARAH: And I was like, okay.
KAYLA: Impressive. Go on.
SARAH: And then I was looking at their jobs and I was like, how are you 25 and have that job?
KAYLA: Mm, nepo baby.
SARAH: Nepkodicoo baby. Anyway, we're done, right?
KAYLA: I think my finishing thoughts are I think that people in monogamous relationships and especially like straight relationships, because I do think straight people are worse about this.
SARAH: Straight people are worse in general.
KAYLA: Yeah, should have more compersion. Like this does not have to be a polyamorous thing.
SARAH: And it doesn't have to be an asexual or aromantic thing where it's like, oh, I'm sex averse or sex repulsed, therefore I don't want to participate in this activity. That can be a great, like not use of conversion, but that can be like a really positive example of how it can work really well in a relationship with an aspec person, but that's absolutely not the only way that it can work.
KAYLA: Yeah, absolutely. I just think there is so much emphasis on needing to have all of your needs fulfilled by one person. And because that is the understanding, I guess, it just kind of takes away the possibility of having compersion. Like it's almost like we're not allowed to feel compersion because we're supposed to feel jealousy or insecurity. So, I think even in non-romantic and sexual settings, just feeling compersion for your partner, having friends or having hobbies outside of you. I recently watched a video, it was like a jubilee video or something, where they were asking men and women, do you think that men and women could be friends without sexual whatever? I had to stop watching after like two minutes because the people were pissing me off.
SARAH: I wouldn't have even clicked on it.
KAYLA: Well, it was a Cody Ko reaction to it, so I wouldn't have watched it otherwise. But even, I was even getting mad at him, I was like, brother, what are we doing? I had to stop watching. Overall, I just think that compersion should be fostered, especially in straight, monogamous relationships.
SARAH: And if you are a sex-repulsed, asexual person and you're in a polyamorous relationship, you might feel compersion when your partner does the do with another partner. But that other partner can also feel compersion when you and your partner do something.
KAYLA: Yes, very true.
SARAH: It's not like it can only go that direction. It's a two-way street, it's a three-way street, it's a really horrible…
KAYLA: It’s however how many way street you want
SARAH: It’s that really horrible intersection in Beverly Hills that's like five or six streets just meeting. And it's a bunch of office buildings and stuff that are really tall.
KAYLA: You know what it is?
SARAH: It's overwhelming.
KAYLA: It's the circle, wherever it is in Europe, that goes around that monument with no lanes.
SARAH: In France, in Paris?
KAYLA: In Paris, where is it? The Arc de Triomphe.
SARAH: Arc de Triomphe.
KAYLA: And you can just get in and there's no lanes and you can go wherever you want. That's what it is.
SARAH: That's what it is.
KAYLA: That’s what it is
SARAH: That's actually really overwhelming. And that's why polyamory is not for me.
KAYLA: Not for you. Yeah
SARAH: Okay, yeah, that's all. Thank you. Okay, what's our poll for this week?
KAYLA: Maybe have you ever experienced compersion?
SARAH: And if no...
KAYLA: Why?
SARAH: What's wrong with you?
KAYLA: Stop.
SARAH: If no, maybe you should look within yourself. Don't shit. Maybe you might look within yourself and think about your relationship with jealousy.
KAYLA: Okay, don't shame people.
SARAH: I'm telling them perhaps they might look within. Listen, I think everyone can feel... I think people think about compersion as this big thing.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: But it's like... If your friend buys a sticker they really like, and you're like, “Oh my God, I love how happy you are that you have that sticker.” That's compersion. It doesn't have to be a big...
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Maybe the poll should be like, “What is your favorite way that you have experienced compersion?”
KAYLA: When have you experienced...
SARAH: Like what has been good.
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: Alright, you can tell us... No. Well you can, but first we got to tell you. Kayla, what's your beef and your juice for this week?
KAYLA: Hold on. Let me write the poll.
SARAH: My bad for making it better.
KAYLA: Yeah, whatever.
SARAH: Everyone would have just been like, yeah.
KAYLA: Okay, whatever. My beef is… Sarah, my beef is corporate America. I will not be going further than that. My boss sometimes listens to this. He already knows what I'm mad about, but anyway, we won't get into it.
SARAH: If you know, you know.
KAYLA: If you know, you know. My juice is... What is my juice?
SARAH: While you think about that, I'm going to give my beef.
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: My beef is that I am being evicted from my apartment for at least a week.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: It's starting Monday. So, we had to file a claim. I'm just going to be out of my house. They're redoing our floor and ripping out a wall, drying the wall, and then rebuilding the wall.
KAYLA: Awful. At least you get new carpet.
SARAH: Why do we build the wall? We build the wall so that we can be free. That's not the lyric. It’s close
KAYLA: What are you talking about?
SARAH: I'm quoting Hadestown.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: I'm very bothered also that we got not a ton of notice, but we have a place to stay, and they're letting us take the cat, and whatever. What's your juice?
KAYLA: Oh, my juice. I just had one. Oh, I bought some cute keychains today.
SARAH: My juice is I bought some things for my BTS friends today because there was someone who was making these really cute like charm keychains that were BTS related, but also they were like donating all of the proceeds to Pius Projects, who are these people who like make like menstrual hygiene kits for people in Gaza.
[00:50:00]
SARAH: And I have donated to them before. And then they emailed me a couple of weeks later being like, here's the update about what we were able to do.
KAYLA: That's nice.
SARAH: And I was like, I love accountability. I love knowing what concrete things have happened. Anyway, but I was like, oh, these are really cute. And like, it's a good cause. And then I was looking at their website and then they had a bunch of stickers and they had stickers of all of the BT21 characters with all the different queer flags. And they had ace ones, which I didn't actually buy any, but they had them. And so, I was like, I'm going to buy my friends these stickers that go with their… how they identify, because not a one of them is straight.
KAYLA: Yeah, why would you be friends with a straight?
SARAH: Because I'm not a sticker girly because I can't commit to putting stickers on things. But like, I was like, these are so cute. And so, I just bought them for other people.
KAYLA: That's so nice.
SARAH: I'm just going to mail it to them. I don't have some of their mailing addresses, so I'm just going to message them and be like, give me your address. Don't ask questions.
KAYLA: Oh no, scary.
SARAH: I promise not to dox you.
KAYLA: Oh no.
SARAH: That's it. Did you say juice? You said juice. You can tell us about your beef and your joos on our social media, @SoundsFakePod. We also have Patreon, patreon.com/soundsfakepod. We have a new $2 patron. You wouldn't believe. The new $2 patron is Donnie Hayward. Thank you, Donnie Hayward.
KAYLA: Ooh Donnie
SARAH: We appreciate you. Our $5 patrons, who we are promoting this week, are Elizabeth Wheeler, Emily Jean, Finasps, everyone's favorite, Galvin Ford, and Green underscore Sarah. Our $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are the Barefoot Backpacker. The Barefoot Backpacker. Why did I the them? The Barefoot Backpacker, who would like to promote their YouTube channel, RTWBarefoot, Song of storm, who would like to promote a healthy work-life balance, never me her, and Val, who would like to promote…
KAYLA: Wow
SARAH: I don't know. Our other $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are… I got to scroll up, sorry, one second, Allison, who would like to promote Art and Grey by Racediv, and Ani, who would like to promote the importance of being kind to yourself and others. Our other $10 patrons, who again we should remember to be kind to are Arkness, Benjamin Ybarra, Boston Smith, Selena Dobson, David Harris, Derek and Karissa, El Bitter, my aunt Jeannie, Kayla's dad, Mav, Martin, Giselle, Parker, Purple Haze, and that's it. Our $15 patrons are Ace, who would like to promote the writer Crystal Sharer, I really struggle with that one, because I say it too fast. Andrew Hillam, who would like to promote the Invisible Spectrum podcast, Dia Chappelle, who would like to promote Twitch.tv/MelodyDia, Hector Mario, who would like to promote friends that are supportive, constructive and help you grow as a better person, and when you do that, they probably experience compersion. Nathaniel White, who would like to promote NathanielJWhitedesigns.com, and Kayla's Aunt Nina, who would like to promote KateMaggartArt.com. Our $20 patrons are Dragonfly, who would like to promote Dragonflies, and we have a new one, Jask, that's just my mom.
KAYLA: Mom
SARAH: Mom is finally a patron again. Her card expired like months ago, and she was like, oh, I forgot. Thanks mom, thanks mom. Mom, what do you want to promote?
KAYLA: Free mom hugs, perhaps?
SARAH: I'm going to promote for my mom that she's doing a lot of work helping my grandma, because my grandma had a stroke, and she's doing a good job. Good job mom.
KAYLA: Ooh, good job mom
SARAH: Thanks for listening. Tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: And until then, feel compersion for your cows.
SARAH: Okay.
[END OF TRANSCRIPT]