Ep 17: Characters who are Definitely Asexual
SARAH: Hey what’s up hello. Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl (I’m Sarah. That’s me.)
KAYLA: And a straight girl (that’s me, Kayla)
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else that we just don’t understand.
KAYLA: On today’s episode: asexual characters.
BOTH: — Sounds fake, but okay.
*Intro music*
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod.
KAYLA: Here we are, sitting in my bed. Sarah just ate some eggs.
SARAH: I just ate some eggs. Welcome back to Sounds Fake But Okay. This week we are talking about a thing that I have a lot of feelings about.
KAYLA: Sarah came up with this idea two weeks ago and –
SARAH: No no no, it was more than that.
KAYLA: Okay, we came up with the idea a while ago, I think during one of the other episodes.
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: In one of the other episodes we mentioned The Hunger Games, but she decided two weeks ago that she wanted to do it soon, and promptly wrote very many notes.
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: But I haven’t looked at them because I want to be soup-prized.
SARAH: She wants to be soup-prized. So yeah, this week we’re going to talk about characters in media whether that’s movies, TV shows, books, all that jazz, who are definitely ace but not canonically.
KAYLA: Not in canon
SARAH: So, there’s one –
KAYLA: Hit me with it.
SARAH: Let me tell you a little story. When I was in middle-school, I read The Hunger Games for the first time because that was when it was big, right?
KAYLA: See the problem was, I read it before it was big and I was too young to understand what was going on, so I only read the first one and then stopped, and never picked them up again when they actually got big, so I’m totally out of it.
SARAH: I read the first one on a train in Germany.
KAYLA: I was too far ahead.
SARAH: Aww, I’m sorry.
KAYLA: Oh, she was on a train in Germany, she’s a cultured lady.
SARAH: Anyway. But I read it, and you know how there’s a love triangle in The Hunger Games?
KAYLA: I am aware. We’re very aware.
SARAH: With Katniss and Peeta and Gale. Now, at first, I shipped Katniss with Gale –
KAYLA: Me too.
SARAH: Which I know is controversial.
KAYLA: I also know it’s controversial, but that’s what I always wanted.
SARAH: Because, listen. I believe that Peeta was very much in love with her, I believe that.
KAYLA: That isn’t my problem though.
SARAH: Right. Here’s where we get to the thing.
KAYLA: What’s the thing Sarah?
SARAH: Then, as I got further into the books I was like, you know what? I don’t think she’s into either of these guys. And the way that I thought of it, as a middle-school, early high-school human –
KAYLA: Before even knowing you were ace.
SARAH: Right, before knowing I was ace. I didn’t know the word, or I mean, I knew the word asexual but I didn’t understand what it meant in terms of sexuality.
KAYLA: You knew like, sponges.
SARAH: Yeah. And so, the way I thought of it was okay, Katniss loves both of them very much, but she is not capable of being in love with either of them. And that was how I thought about it. And that is textbook asexual, aromantic asexual.
KAYLA: Yeah, that’s literally asexual, she cares about them very much as people but not romantically.
SARAH: Yeah, and I thought that before I ever had an inkling I was ace –
KAYLA: You’re just revolutionary.
SARAH: In hindsight, everything makes so much sense.
KAYLA: Yeah, I feel like in hindsight, a lot of times we talk about things from your past that in hindsight it’s like, yup.
SARAH: Yeah, basically. But I strongly believe that Katniss is aro-ace.
KAYLA: (laughs)
SARAH: What?
KAYLA: She has an arrow.
SARAH: She’s an aro-ace, arrow-ace.
SARAH: But yeah, I strongly believe that because, honestly, when you go through the books, there's someone else in love with her.
KAYLA: Everyone’s in love with her
SARAH: And then she's just like, I guess I should do something here. And there's one scene where, I think the only time she ever kisses Gale –
KAYLA: God bless.
SARAH: They’re in the kitchen of her house in District 12 or something, and he's kissing her and then he stops and he goes, it's like kissing a drunk person.
KAYLA: Because she's like not – She’s just sitting there?
SARAH: Because she’s just doing it because she feels like she has to, so she doesn’t…and like listen, that girl is an aro-ace.
KAYLA: My whole thing too – I never read the last books, obviously, but I know what happened. I think I saw at least two of the movies, but her and Peeta get married at the end?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: They have kids and you can tell she doesn't want it.
SARAH: The thing that pisses me off most is the epilogue. The epilogue is very controversial because not a lot of people really like it, even if they were Katniss and Peeta shippers.
KAYLA: Because it doesn't match her character at all.
SARAH: It doesn’t.
KAYLA: It’s just like out of nowhere.
SARAH: Because basically – I mean spoilers, this episode is full of spoilers.
KAYLA: Guys, get over it. It’s been years.
SARAH: In the book, she specifically says she and Peeta get married, whatever, and it took Peeta like, 10 years to convince her to have kids.
KAYLA: Convince?
SARAH: Convince her.
KAYLA: Con- Listen, I am well aware that relationships are about compromise and one person in the relationship might not want kids as much, and I get that struggle –
SARAH: But with kids, I don’t think that’s something –
KAYLA: But like, convince?
SARAH: Yeah. And she finally did it, and I think part of it was a little bit of PTSD where she was afraid to raise children.
KAYLA: Well someone – Listen, in in my opinion neither of them are fit to raise children after –
SARAH: I think Peeta is.
KAYLA: I don't know, I think after everything both of them went through I think that they would be a too fucked up.
SARAH: I think with some time, Peeta would be, because Peeta is a very paternal guy –
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And so I can see – Obviously not immediately after the fact, like after the end of the events of Mockingjay. But if you gave him some time, he definitely seems like the kind of person who would really want kids. Katniss does not seem like the kind of person who would really want that.
KAYLA: But even before –
SARAH: Yeah, and I have a fundamental issue with her being like, oh I was convinced to have kids.
KAYLA: Because she didn't want to be pregnant, and she didn't want to have kids, and she's not going to want the kid, and that's not going to give the kid a great childhood. Obviously, I don't see her being terrible on purpose, but I feel like you often hear stories of women that didn’t want kids but have them because they felt like they needed to, and they think that they'll just have this motherly instinct, once they have the kid. And then I've read so many stories of women being like, I still don't want this kid. Like, obviously I love my kid, but I still don't want it.
SARAH: Yeah, I definitely, I’ve seen some stuff –
KAYLA: Which is so sad, because think about the kid being like wow, my mom does not want me.
SARAH: I saw a video on Facebook once where it was this woman, she was middle-aged, her son was in his 20s, I think and she basically said, I love my son but I shouldn't have had him because it just wasn't the right choice for me. And I love him, but it’s – And a lot of people in the comments were getting so mad at her and I'm like, I don't think you can fault her for that. She can’t –
KAYLA: She’s obviously glad that he's there.
SARAH: It's not like she’s saying fuck this kid, I hate my son.
KAYLA: No, it's just sometimes you look back at choices you made in your life and you're like, that wasn't the best.
SARAH: I shouldn't have done that, yeah. And I think that's also just a societal issue that people think that you, whatever.
KAYLA: You don't want kids, are you sure, sweetie?
SARAH: Now everything from The Hunger Games books is coming back to me. It's been a long time since I read them but –
KAYLA: Flashbacks.
SARAH: I remember when they were, I think it was when they were doing the tour of all of the districts after they won, and they are on a train for a lot of the time?
KAYLA: That sounds familiar to me.
SARAH: And Katniss and Peeta, obviously they're both very scarred from what happened to them, but they're talking about how they would spend the night together, but they just really wanted to physically be there for each other.
KAYLA: Yes, like a nice cuddle.
SARAH: Yeah, and it never seems like there is any sexual attraction on the part of Katniss, at all.
KAYLA: No, sometimes you just need, especially in situations like that, you just like need to be close to another person.
SARAH: And I think Peeta is – God bless his soul for not trying to –
KAYLA: Pressure her or anything.
SARAH: Peeta’s a good person and I believe that Peeta was in love with her –
KAYLA: Oh, he was very in love with her.
SARAH: But it was unrequited, I’m sorry.
KAYLA: Which, you have to wonder, he must know on some level after the ten years of – How long they've been married, he must know on some level, but do you think it's worth it to him because he loves her so much that he's like, I'm willing to be in this kind of unhappy relationship?
SARAH: I don’t know.
KAYLA: Or would you be totally crushed by that, once you realized like, this is not what I thought it was?
SARAH: Yeah, and also just like, Gale. I was pretty mad about what happened with their relationship.
KAYLA: Because he just like, kills everyone or whatever.
SARAH: Well okay, here's what happened. Lots of spoilers.
KAYLA: Guys, it's been 15 years.
SARAH: So Katniss's sister Prim, who she loves very much and is the whole reason why this has happened –
KAYLA: He accidentally kills her or whatever.
SARAH: He, well, no. What happens is –
KAYLA: He on purpose kills her.
SARAH: No, Kayla.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: She becomes a nurse for their rebellion.
KAYLA: Isn’t she like, two?
SARAH: She's actually too young to be a nurse, but they let her do it anyway.
KAYLA: That seems like their fault, then.
SARAH: Yeah, but she's very good at it.
KAYLA: Well, that’s not my problem.
SARAH: Kayla, let me tell the fucking story. And so, she is helping people who have recently got hit by some bombs.
KAYLA: In the Capitol, right?
SARAH: In the Capitol. And then more bombs go off, and it kills her.
(10:00)
KAYLA: I knew that.
SARAH: Because it was engineered in a way that it would bring people in to help the people who are injured, and then kill them.
KAYLA: It’s pretty smart.
SARAH: It’s pretty fucked. But basically, the bombs were dropped by a Capitol – I don't remember what the name of the – I can’t remember what they’re called.
KAYLA: A drone.
SARAH: But they were dropped by a thing that was piloted, that – It looked like the ones from the Capitol. People are pilots on it, you have to fly it, it’s a flying thing. You’re looking at me confusedly. I don't remember what it's called –
KAYLA: Okay. It's like an airplane, Sarah.
SARAH: It wasn’t an airplane.
KAYLA: Like a drone?
SARAH: No.
KAYLA: Okay, it’s like a flying motorcycle
SARAH: Some sort of transportation device.
KAYLA: Oh my God.
SARAH: It doesn't matter but the bombs were dropped by a Capitol one of those.
KAYLA: Well yeah, because the Capitol’s bad.
SARAH: Yes, but the design for that sort of weapon was created by Gale.
KAYLA: Well, that's not his fault.
SARAH: But the rebellion or whatever they were called, I can't remember the specifics. They had stolen, I believe, some of the Capitol’s whatevers, the flying things, and so they didn't actually know who dropped the bomb.
KAYLA: Well, I feel like it's a bit obvious who dropped it. Why would the rebellion drop it?
SARAH: This might be wrong, correct me if I'm wrong, but what I do know is that basically Katniss was so upset that Gale’s design killed her sister –
KAYLA: Okay, listen.
SARAH: And it wasn't clear if it was actually them or if it was the Capitol who did it, and so she basically never talks to him again.
KAYLA: Here my thing with that. I get she's really fucked up, but that's stupid.
SARAH: I think that's really stupid. I think, considering the bond that they had previously – They kept each other alive when they were young.
KAYLA: No, that's very stupid.
SARAH: And I think that's something that they need to have a conversation about, absolutely, but –
KAYLA: I understand why she would be upset, but I think that’s just an easy out for the writer.
SARAH: I think it is too.
KAYLA: That’s just fucking bad –
SARAH: I think Suzanne Collins is being like, I want to end this love triangle so we're going to do something to make her and Gale never speak again.
KAYLA: And having the conversation is too boring.
SARAH: And I think it was partially the loss of her sister because, I also know that she really even struggled to talk to her mom afterwards.
KAYLA: I totally get it, I just think it's stupid.
SARAH: Yeah, I agree. So that's that, and Gale was in love with her too, although he wasn't as openly in love with her as Peeta was.
KAYLA: He wasn’t a dick about it. Peeta was kind of a dick about it.
SARAH: Yeah, and also even just in the stuff that Katniss – Katniss at first had to pretend to be in love with him.
KAYLA: My favorite is when Peeta, in his interview in the first book, is like, oh I like Katniss, and she gets mad and beats him up. I also think that's a bit telling –
SARAH: Tag yourself.
KAYLA: The fact that she finds out someone has feelings for her, it’s that kind of reaction that she’d be like, what the actual fuck?
SARAH: This is going to harm me somehow.
KAYLA: But also, her as an ace person, that seems like a reaction that could be understandable, just being like, what the fuck is that about?
SARAH: Right. So then she had to fake being in love with him, which turned into being in love with him – Listen, I'm here for fake dating tropes.
KAYLA: Fake dating all the way.
SARAH: But I think in this situation, it just didn't work. And then she had to pretend to be pregnant and she had to pretend to have a miscarriage –
KAYLA: I don’t remember that part.
SARAH: Oh yeah, when they went into the second Games and then with the Quarter Quell and they both went in, they were like, all right, we’ve got to have people still be behind us. And so Katniss is like, oh I'm pregnant.
KAYLA: So she was pregnant going into the Games?
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: Who would believe that?
SARAH: And then when they both survived the Games, she had gotten sort of electrocuted at one point and so they were like, that killed the baby.
KAYLA: Well yeah, the baby would not last even if she hadn't been electrocuted. The stress – Listen, it’s how the body works. Extreme stress is bad for your fetus and so it would not have worked out anyway
SARAH: Well basically, she was forced to do all these things just to keep herself alive.
KAYLA: Just to survive.
SARAH: And I think also considering when they hijacked Peeta and he became – You don’t remember the film?
KAYLA: I don’t remember that one.
SARAH: The Capitol took Peeta and they –
KAYLA: Oh, this does sound familiar.
SARAH: They used the venom from those bee things to hijack him and they basically rewire his brain so that he wanted to kill Katniss.
KAYLA: This seems familiar.
SARAH: Yeah, and once they got him back, he tried to kill her and –
KAYLA: Same.
SARAH: He had a long, long way to go to try to heal from that, and obviously that's something that I think two people can definitely get over and work with, but I just think that would be a lot for her to try and –
KAYLA: Yeah, especially with everything – Listen, I just like, it’s fucked up.
SARAH: Also, one last thing on Katniss, there's a scene when they're hiding and those fancy clothes people in the Capitol – I'm really good at describing things. Enobaria? No. I don’t remember their names. In the movies, they look like cats. But they were hiding in their basement in the Capitol.
KAYLA: This seems familiar also.
SARAH: It was kind of the first time that Gale and Peeta were both there with her. They thought she was sleeping, she was awake.
KAYLA: Did they fight?
SARAH: No, they were talking about her and they were basically saying, I don't remember which one of them said it, it might have been Gale, he was like, between the two of us she will choose whichever one of us she can't live without, and that’s – (sighs)
KAYLA: That is unfortunate, but yes though, because if you think about the amount of times that she had to just a fake relationship with Peeta and use Peeta to survive, you would think that, especially as someone with PTSD, she would just learn to lean on Peeta. So even though she probably didn’t love him and was probs ace, she probably just became so co-dependent on him because of everything that like, yeah.
SARAH: Yeah, I also just think – I mean obviously if you really love someone, you might not be able to live without them. But I think it shouldn't be just being able to live without them, I think it should be a lot more than that.
KAYLA: That’s definitely not what I base my relationships on. I'm going to date you because I'm going to die if I don't.
SARAH: But I also think it's hard to relate to because it's a dystopian world, and what do we know about living in that kind of situation –
KAYLA: I guess.
SARAH: Yet. We’re all going to die.
KAYLA: So, this has just turned into a Hunger Games episode.
SARAH: Yes. It’s because I have a lot of feelings about the Hunger Games. But there are a lot of other characters that people have people have head-canoned as being ace.
KAYLA: What are they, Sarah?
SARAH: Let me tell you. Some of the most common ones that I have found people saying are Sherlock Holmes, for one. Which I get. There are a lot of ships with Sherlock, especially with BBC Sherlock, the TV show.
KAYLA: Well, that’s just because there are so many versions of Sherlock, but I think if you take the original one, then yeah.
SARAH: I think the original one and also just looking at – So there's the movie with Robert Downey Jr.
KAYLA: So good.
SARAH: That Sherlock didn’t seem as ace.
KAYLA: That Sherlock seems pretty not ace, in my opinion.
SARAH: But then there's the BBC Sherlock with Benedict Cumberbatch.
KAYLA: That one seems ace to me.
SARAH: He seems ace, and there are a lot of Johnlock shippers with that.
KAYLA: Yeah. I'm not mad at that.
SARAH: A lot of Johnlock shippers. There are Sherlolly shippers, so Sherlock and Molly.
KAYLA: Molly?
SARAH: She's the kind of assistant-type person.
KAYLA: Oh yeah, because she's just obsessed with him.
SARAH: Yeah, she's in love with him which – That poor child.
KAYLA: Wrong choice.
SARAH: And people ship him with Irene, obviously. And then people also ship him with Moriarty.
KAYLA: Hell, yeah.
SARAH: Which I can see –
KAYLA: Their whole battle is just a bunch of sexual tension.
SARAH: Yeah, basically. I can totally see that. I for a while did kind of ship him with Irene.
KAYLA: I ship him with Irene in the Robert Downey Jr version, because Rachel McAdams is my queen.
SARAH: Yeah, but also in the BBC one, Irene is sort of in love with him.
KAYLA: Well –
SARAH: In her own way.
KAYLA: Well, yeah, that's the interesting thing I think about any of these ships is, you have to think about what kind of love it is. Because is Sherlock really in love with John? Or is it, he has no one else and is very bonded with him and there’s a high level of camaraderie.
SARAH: I think they just have a very close, very close friendship.
KAYLA: And so there's obviously jealousy from Sherlock about whatever his wife's name is –
SARAH: Mary.
KAYLA: Mary. But I kind of see that as you being jealous if your friend has another best friend, or your friend starts dating someone. Like, you don't want me to date anyone –
SARAH: Nope.
KAYLA: But it's not because you're in love with me, that's because you're a little bitch.
SARAH: Yeah. But also now they're raising a child together, so people are like –
KAYLA: What? I missed the last season. No, what?
SARAH: Spoilers. Yeah, Mary's dead –
KAYLA: Same.
SARAH: Because she actually saved Sherlock's life and then John got really fucking pissed.
KAYLA: Uh, yeah.
SARAH: And then he got over it.
KAYLA: Oh, okay.
SARAH: Well no, he got pissed because he blamed Sherlock for Mary's death.
KAYLA: Oh, well yeah
SARAH: But they had recently had a child, John and Mary.
KAYLA: That’s going to be a really fucked-up kid.
SARAH: And so now Sherlock and John are raising a child.
KAYLA: Are they living together again?
SARAH: I think he moved back into 221B.
KAYLA: How old is this child?
SARAH: Like, a baby.
KAYLA: No, I don't like that. That child is going to become addicted to drugs.
(20:00)
SARAH: No, I think John knows better.
KAYLA: I know but who's watching the baby when they're out exploring?
SARAH: Mrs Hudson.
KAYLA: See that’s fine, she could raise a baby. Wow, I really need to watch.
SARAH: Yeah, it's good, it’s good shit.
KAYLA: Yikes.
SARAH: Anyway, but a lot of people ship him and John and I see it, but I don't ship it.
KAYLA: Like I'm not – I see all of the ships.
SARAH: I see him and Moriarty for sure.
KAYLA: See that's also something interesting though, I could see there being a sexual aspect because they are both very intelligent and they would be very attracted to someone's intelligence.
SARAH: I don’t know how romantic it would be though.
KAYLA: I don't think it would be at all. For me, I think these are all very interesting attractions because I think Irene would also be a very intelligent attraction. She’d be like, here's this person who's very similar to me. And a lot of these people are just very misunderstood. Sherlock and Moriarty and Irene are all geniuses that are just misunderstood and kind of alone, so I can see why they would be attracted to each other, but not in the way that I think a lot of people are thinking.
SARAH: Right. And Sherlock, I think it's because of – He's obsessed with Moriarty and he's obsessed with Irene and I think it is because he's like, this person is on my level. For once in my life, here's this person that's on my level.
KAYLA: And he's so interested in something that's hard to solve.
SARAH: Yes. And so I think with Irene, he saved her life, right?
KAYLA: Sure.
SARAH: He threw her under the bus, and then he saved her life afterwards.
KAYLA: Literally? Threw her under a bus?
SARAH: No.
KAYLA: Is this in the season I missed too?
SARAH: This is season two.
KAYLA: Girl, it’s just been a while.
SARAH: Basically, they were trying to get into her phone because she had some compromising photos.
KAYLA: Ooh, yeah and she's like, I’m Sherlocked, bitch.
SARAH: And the password to her phone was S-H-E-R so it said I am Sherlocked.
KAYLA: And then everyone was like (screams).
SARAH: They were like, oh, so she is sort of in her own way in love with Sherlock.
KAYLA: In her own way.
SARAH: Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily the traditional, like when you think about love. But then she has accepted that she's going to die, and she's literally about to get beheaded.
KAYLA: And he’s like, hey.
SARAH: And he’s like, when I say run, run. And you see her look up and she's like shit, Sherlock's behind me.
KAYLA: That’s my dad.
SARAH: And because Sherlock, when he thought – When we thought that he thought that Irene was dead, he was really upset.
KAYLA: Yeah. Again, I do see a lot of him there that would be ace, and I think that the show does an interesting job of different types of attraction and interest with people.
SARAH: I agree.
KAYLA: And I think a lot of people – I just saw the notes, now I remember, sorry. I think it's very interesting and I don't blame people for taking it as a romantic way, because I am very interested in fandom, and I have a lot of arguments with people all the time about the importance of fandom and shipping and what it does for people. I'm taking a class on it next semester.
SARAH: Oh, what class is that?
KAYLA: It's like a fandom class. It's in the Comm. department. So, yeah, so I think fandom is just something that's very interesting to me and I see what people get out of it. And it's interesting that you also see a lot of characters as ace when other people might not, and what that means about you and your sexuality.
SARAH: Yeah, so in the case of specifically BBC Sherlock, there are a lot of people who I want to ship Sherlock with, but it feels wrong, and that to me says that he’s probably aro-ace.
KAYLA: Which is interesting.
SARAH: So the next character that people often think is ace is The Doctor from Doctor Who.
KAYLA: See this one is –
SARAH: This one’s a little more controversial.
KAYLA: This one is interesting to me because – I haven't watched a ton of Doctor Who.
SARAH: I’ve watched it.
KAYLA: I actually started watching the revival of it, and then once Rose died – I didn't even watch her last episode. I saw the commercial for the one where she was going to be gone and I said “Bye!” and I've only watched episodes here and there since then, because I was like, fuck that.
SARAH: That's funny.
KAYLA: Rose and The Doctor forever.
SARAH: Yeah. See, here's my thoughts. There are some people who I ship The Doctor with.
KAYLA: Who?
SARAH: I ship Eleven and River. And at first, I was like, it feels really weird to ship Clara and Twelve because the actor –
KAYLA: He’s so elderly.
SARAH: Is so old – Well, he’s not that old. Peter Capaldi, I love you. In case you just happen to be listening.
KAYLA: I think he's definitely listening.
SARAH: But then you think about the fact that The Doctor’s actually like 2,000 years old.
KAYLA: And so it's like, eh.
SARAH: So it doesn't matter. So, I sort of ship Twelve and Clara.
KAYLA: Who was it with Amy?
SARAH: Amy and Rory.
KAYLA: Yeah, I know but wasn't Amy in love with The Doctor? Wasn’t that a weird thing?
SARAH: I don’t know, I’m not sure.
KAYLA: Because I always see stuff about that and I’m like, what is happening? I always thought Amy and Rory were together, but then there's weird stuff with the The Doctor and I'm like, what's happening?
SARAH: I don’t know. Well, in the most recent season I think it was, no, the season before that, the one when Clara – not the Bill season, but Clara’s season. After Clara - spoiler alert -dies.
KAYLA: Yikes.
SARAH: The Doctor runs into River, and they have this really nice moment where he's like, River – Maybe I'm thinking – I don’t know.
KAYLA: River’s memory’s wiped, isn’t it, at the end?
SARAH: No.
KAYLA: Whose memory is it that he takes away?
SARAH: That was, it’s Clara’s but it’s actually his.
KAYLA: Sure.
SARAH: It was a gamble, neither of them knew whose memory was going to be wiped and it ended up being his.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: So he was – I don't remember why they couldn't see him, he was somewhere where they couldn't see him, and River was there and she was defending him and saying really nice things about him –
KAYLA: Aww.
SARAH: And he was like –
KAYLA: That's my wife.
SARAH: No, she could see him but she didn't know what Twelve looked like.
KAYLA: Oh, so she didn't realise it was him.
SARAH: Yeah, and then she was defending him, then he's standing there and then he goes “Hello, sweetie,” because that's something that he'd said to her many times.
KAYLA: (screams)
SARAH: And she was like, what the fuck? But anyway, after that there's this really cute moment where they know that River’s going to die soon, for some reason. So they know that whatever night they have is their last night together, so they go to this really nice restaurant for Christmas. There's these singing tower things, because they’re on some other planet obviously, and she's really sad that it's her last night basically being alive and it's their last night together, and she's like, how long is a night on this planet? And he goes, it's like 20 something years
KAYLA: (snorts)
SARAH: But it's so cute because it means they get to spend twenty-something more years together, and I was like, okay I ship Eleven with River more than I ship Twelve with River, but this is cute as all fucking hell.
KAYLA: But it’s the same person in a way.
SARAH: Well yeah, they’re the same person but they’re not the same person.
KAYLA: Right. Weren’t Eleven and River married?
SARAH: Yeah. He is married. That's his wife, technically.
KAYLA: What?
SARAH: Eleven and River.
KAYLA: Is River his OG wife from before all the time-people died?
SARAH: Oh, no.
KAYLA: But they did get married?
SARAH: They did get married, because River is Amy and Rory's daughter.
KAYLA: Oh, she's their daughter.
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: Not their mom?
SARAH: Her name was originally –
KAYLA: That’s so fucked up.
SARAH: Her name was swapped. So it's the Ponds, it's Amy and Rory Pond, because Rory took Amy’s last name, which is amazing. Amy and Rory Pond, and they had a kid whose name was something Pond. It was something that had to do with the word song, and then she's changed it and flipped it, so that it was River as a first name instead of Pond as her last name, and then Song is her last name instead of whatever her first name was.
KAYLA: Sure.
SARAH: But she's like, half of a Time Lord because she was conceived on the TARDIS.
KAYLA: Right.
SARAH: That's why that happened.
KAYLA: Okay. Oh, she’s conceived on the TARDIS.
SARAH: I just had a flashback to that episode where Amy and Rory got really mad that The Doctor had given them bunk beds.
KAYLA: That's funny. How are we supposed to conceive your wife?
SARAH: Which you have already met.
KAYLA: Yes, because River came first. It's so bizarre.
SARAH: Yeah. Anyway, so my thoughts on the matter are I do sort of ship The Doctor, plus obviously Ten and Rose. Like, girl.
KAYLA: (sighs)
SARAH: But I think that The Doctor is not aro, but I think that they are ace.
KAYLA: Why?
SARAH: Because just the way that they talk – I'm using they because the new Doctor is a girl.
KAYLA: Is a lady, which I have been saying should happen for years and everyone was like no Kayla, that makes no sense. Bitch.
SARAH: I was running around the kitchen. I was in Germany at the time and no one who I knew there was into Doctor Who.
KAYLA: I had called it for so many years and people were like, Kayla, that's never going to happen. And I was like, how about you shut the fuck up?
SARAH: It's amazing. But anyway, basically the stuff that they have said, they don't really understand relationships, and they don't understand prioritising romantic relationships.
KAYLA: I mean they're a little fucked up.
SARAH: Yeah, they just don't really get that and so, I can't really think of a good specific example right now, but you can see that they just don't have sexual attraction to people. They just don't get that. But I think I would be able to romantically ship them with people.
KAYLA: Yeah, that makes sense to me, and I mean they never really go into sexual things on the show all that often.
SARAH: They don’t.
KAYLA: That makes sense to me and we don't know what their species does with sex. Like what if they just don’t? We don't know what Time Lords are doing.
SARAH: Yeah. They did have kids.
KAYLA: But we don't know how that happened. They could just be little incubator babies.
SARAH: I don't know. But then they died in the Time War.
KAYLA: Well, everyone died.
(30:00)
SARAH: So The Doctor I think is not aro. They potentially might be – Because I mean the gender is fluid, very fluid, even more fluid than with humans, with Time Lords, because they can regenerate into a different gender. And so I would say in that case they're probably pan, or bi.
KAYLA: Because you have to think about, what does pan mean when you have an alien species? Because for right now, pan is you love or are attracted to anyone of any gender, non-binary, whatever.
SARAH: But there are interspecies relationships on Doctor Who.
KAYLA: Right, so I'm just thinking, is there in the future a specific word for sexuality if you're only attracted to those of your own species?
SARAH: Oh, that would be so interesting.
KAYLA: I think there must have to be.
SARAH: Because technically all of his companions and him are different species.
KAYLA: Right. So I just think it's interesting if we ever got to a point where we were in contact with a lot of alien species, would you label your sexuality not hopefully in terms of gender anymore? But you might then label it, especially when species are new, and we're still adapting -
SARAH: That’s funny.
KAYLA: Wouldn't you think –
SARAH: Well because there are, on that show, there's a, what's-her-name – Blastra and her wife or whatever. One of them's a human, one of them is a green person and they're gay.
KAYLA: But what if that's not even a thing? What if it's not about gender at all anymore, it's just about species?
SARAH: That’s wild.
KAYLA: And that's the drama. It’s like, interspecies is the drama. Interspecies is like the new gay.
SARAH: It's kind of like how it went from interracial marriages, where they had to fight for that, and they had to fight for gay marriage. Speaking of which, same sex marriage in Australia was recently legalised. Gay Australia!
KAYLA: Yay Australia, but do they still have to wait until 2019?
SARAH: No, that's Austria.
KAYLA: Oh.
SARAH: Austria also recently seems to have legalized, but not til 2019.
KAYLA: But they're making everyone have a year-long engagement.
SARAH: Yeah, but then Australia is into effect next month.
KAYLA: Yay, Australia.
SARAH: And weddings can start the month following.
KAYLA: I’m so excited for Australian weddings.
SARAH: I know.
KAYLA: Let’s go to Australia.
SARAH: I know that their Parliament or their House of – I don’t know what they call it, they were really – A lot of people were against it, but then they did the referendum and they were like, no one's going to vote, and then the referendum was 60% for it –
KAYLA: Everyone voted.
SARAH: And they were like, well shit. So then, Parliament didn't have to do what the people said, but then they were like, people will be real pissed if we don't –
KAYLA: So I think the voting rate too of how many people voted, it was insane
SARAH: And so only four people in Parliament voted against it –
KAYLA: Ha.
SARAH: Which is awesome. Anyway, let's move on. Okay, so other people – I wanted to look up some other ones, and there are a lot of the ones I've said. I found a couple of articles, there was one on BuzzFeed that was listing characters that people who are ace relate to. One of them is Luna Lovegood –
KAYLA: I can see.
SARAH: I can see that but I do kind of ship her with Neville.
KAYLA: Oh, I ship her with Neville.
SARAH: Newt Scamander from Fantastic Beasts.
KAYLA: No, I ship him too hard with what's-her-face.
SARAH: I really ship him with what's-her-face too, I think he’s just awkward.
KAYLA: Yeah I think it's possible to be socially awkward, but also want to do the sex.
SARAH: Yeah. Elsa, which a lot of people also see as a gay icon. I've played a gay Elsa in a musical before.
KAYLA: Yeah, we were in a musical and Sarah was gay Elsa.
SARAH: I was Elsa, I was in love with Cinderella. Fox and Scully which I didn’t –
KAYLA: I didn’t really watch The X-Files, so I don’t know.
SARAH: A lot a lot of people ship them together, so that's confusing. Another one, okay, Jughead from Riverdale –
KAYLA: So, Riverdale is based on the comic Archie.
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: And in the comics, apparently he is ace.
SARAH: He is canonically ace, and that’s why I –
KAYLA: Which is lit.
SARAH: I was going to watch Riverdale, because Cole Sprouse plays Jughead and someone asked him before anything was verified, would you want Jughead to be ace? And he was like, absolutely, that'd be really cool. And he was in support of it and then they made Jughead super-duper not ace.
KAYLA: He's super not ace.
SARAH: It could be that he's just very sex-positive as an ace person, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.
KAYLA: I don't see the show being that progressive.
SARAH: Yeah, and so they basically made him not aro and not ace –
KAYLA: He’s in a relationship.
SARAH: And now I just refused to catch up with the show.
KAYLA: It's interesting because I've watched several episodes because a lot of our roommates –
SARAH: One of our housemates is really into it.
KAYLA: Several of our housemates really like it, and it's interesting because I mentioned to them, I was like, oh, wasn't he supposed to be ace? And they were like, yeah. One of our roommates was like, well, there's only a few guy characters and there's so many girl characters, and so she was like, I think they just wanted – They didn't have enough guy characters to not –
SARAH: [They could] Make people gay. They have had people, they have had –
KAYLA: Gay people?
SARAH: Same-sex kisses and stuff, I think, I’m not sure.
KAYLA: I don't know, I wouldn't be surprised but it's interesting that our one roommate was like, well they needed to have a romance, which is like –
SARAH: Yeah, that's a struggle. It's just really frustrating to me, because I understand why people ship him with, um –
KAYLA: Betty.
SARAH: Betty. I understand them –
KAYLA: Well they’re in a relationship. You know what's actually interesting about Bughead is the other couple, Archie and Veronica, they have sex like, every episode and they’re supposed to be fourteen, and I'm not here for it because their shirts are always off and it's like, can you not?
SARAH: Okay.
KAYLA: I believe that like Betty and Jughead had never had sex. They had almost had sex one time, and then they got interrupted.
SARAH: Interesting.
KAYLA: And he made out with some other character, but they said in the show they never had sex. It was just like a gropefest or whatever. So he, as far as we know, has not had sex actually, which is interesting.
SARAH: Well I hope they're like, hey, he's ace.
KAYLA: Yeah, that would be very interesting to me.
SARAH: I feel like they can still redeem themselves if that’s the case. It's just really frustrating, because for once there was actual canonical - canon - I’ve added too many letters to that word, actual canon ace representation and they took it away.
KAYLA: Archie too was quite old, wasn’t it?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: So the fact that it’s in something as well-known as Archie is like, wow.
SARAH: Yeah, so that’s very, very frustrating to me.
KAYLA: Especially since the show is so big.
SARAH: Yeah. There's a character – so on this list, Data from Star Trek.
KAYLA: Okay, so here’s the thing, this is Data from the old Star Trek? Um, he's a robot so he doesn't have feelings anyway.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Maybe.
SARAH: Okay. The next one though is Todd from Bojack Horseman. He’s canonically ace –
KAYLA: (at the same time) Gay (laughs)
SARAH: Ace.
KAYLA: Canon ace.
SARAH: Which is really cool. There's also a character on – what's that show? It's Shadowhunters, the show Shadowhunters?
KAYLA: Sure.
SARAH: There is a canonically ace character in that show as well –
KAYLA: That’s lit.
SARAH: Which is dope, and it’s a guy.
KAYLA: I've been meaning to watch Bojack Horseman, because both of these are guys which I think is especially interesting because I think people often don't see that as possible.
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: I've been meaning to watch that show. We really need to watch it together and then we can do an ep about it.
SARAH: Hell yeah. Then you have Katniss, obviously. Dr. Spencer Reid from Criminal Minds. I don’t watch Criminal Minds, I couldn't tell you.
KAYLA: I don’t know.
SARAH: Bilbo Baggins.
KAYLA: Huh.
SARAH: I am not familiar enough with that.
KAYLA: I am not either, but I like to ship him with – No wait, wrong person. I shipped Sam and Frodo just to make my father angry, because he yells at me every time I yell “Gay!” at the screen when we we’re watching the movie. But that's not the same character.
SARAH: So next one is Charlie Weasley. He just really likes dragons.
KAYLA: I think he’s sexually attracted to dragons.
SARAH: Incredible. And then the next one is most of the Doctors from Doctor Who.
KAYLA: I wonder if it could change by Doctor?
SARAH: I don't know, that’s a good question.
KAYLA: Because they regenerate so why couldn’t their sexuality change?
SARAH: Yeah, maybe. Then the next one is Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory.
KAYLA: (sighs) Yeah, here –
SARAH: I can sort of see that, but he’s also just pretty awkward.
KAYLA: No, the interesting thing is, I think he definitely was in the beginning of the series, like he was often sex-repulsed even. Then they got him a girlfriend who also seemed ace, like neither of them –
SARAH: Yeah, because this person is saying they thought both Sheldon and Amy –
KAYLA: Because the things they said in the show, I used to watch it quite a bit, it made them seem ace, but then they made Amy's character sex-obsessed –
SARAH: Oh.
KAYLA: And she was upset that Sheldon wouldn’t have sex with her, so now I believe they have an agreement where they have sex once a year.
SARAH: That makes me really uncomfortable.
KAYLA: Yeah, because they've changed her character a lot since the beginning to be not as awkward and like Sheldon, which I don't like because I thought it was really cool that they had a girl that wasn't sex-obsessed on the show, and then they just ruined it.
SARAH: And I think that could be, as this person is saying in this list, they’re saying it'd be really cool to have two characters who are in a relationship and are asexual, that would be so good.
KAYLA: Yeah, because at the beginning they were, and then slowly they just messed her character.
SARAH: Yeah. Okay, this is the next one, Rafael Santiago, Shadowhunters. He is canonically ace.
KAYLA: (shocked) He's not even white.
SARAH: No, he's not.
KAYLA: Wild.
SARAH: I think that's one who’s canonically ace, I don’t know. Hero from Big Hero 6. Hmm, I don’t know. He’s like a kid –
KAYLA: He’s like a child, so I haven’t thought much about his sexuality.
SARAH: Belle, Beauty and the Beast. I think she just really fucking doesn't like Gaston.
KAYLA: Yeah, I think maybe Gaston’s a dick and we should all realize that that's why she's not attracted to him.
SARAH: Yeah. Liz Lemon, 30 Rock. I haven't seen 30 Rock.
KAYLA: I don't think so. I don't know. I understand why that could be interesting, but her character very much wants a relationship with someone, and even though she's bad at relationships and is kind of non-committal, a lot of people are like that.
SARAH: Yeah. The next one is Dumbledore which is bullshit, Dumbledore’s gay.
KAYLA: Dumbledore’s gay as fuck.
SARAH: He's gay and he never got over Grindelwald. Next. okay, that’s the end of that list. Then there's another one that's on asexuality.org, which is the AVEN website which is interesting, and it was going through favorite ace characters. Someone said Daryl Dixon from Walking Dead.
KAYLA: This is just a discussion board, this is interesting.
SARAH: Yeah, it's just like a discussion. Um, let's see what else.
KAYLA: Castiel from Supernatural.
SARAH: I always thought it was (pronounced) Casteel, it is (pronounced) Casteel.
(40:00)
KAYLA: I have never watched it, I just see too much about it on the internet.
SARAH: It always weirds me out because – Not Jared Padalecki but the other guy, his voice is much deeper –
KAYLA: Yeah, none of their voices are right.
SARAH: On the show than it is in real life. A lot of people, some people think Castiel may be ace but most people think he's gay and ship him with Dean.
KAYLA: My thing is, he's an angel, so maybe leave him alone.
SARAH: True. Someone mentioned Captain Rex from the Clone Wars Star Wars thing.
KAYLA: Who?
SARAH: He's a robot.
KAYLA: You keep talking about robots, people, they don't have feelings.
SARAH: A couple other random ones.
KAYLA: We’ll post these in our Patreon so you all can see them.
SARAH: Some people think Merida's ace, from Brave.
KAYLA: (chants) Aro-ace, aro-ace.
SARAH: Aro-ace, which, I really like Brave because of the fact that Merida's like, fuck this marriage thing, but I don't think that makes her ace.
KAYLA: No. I think would be cool if she was ace but I think what I mostly got out of it is that she was in a medieval time, she was a princess where usually you don't get to choose your husband and she was like no, I want to have my own choices. That’s what I mostly got out of it.
SARAH: And I think in that situation too, as much as I love ace representation, I think it would also be really important for her not to be ace, because it's showing that okay, she needs to make her own choices, she needs to have a voice in her own life and she might choose to get married later but right now is not the time and she needs to have choices there. So, I would be okay if Merida isn’t ace.
KAYLA: She’s also a child –
SARAH: She’s sixteen.
KAYLA: And I just find with children characters, I just don't think about their sexuality, because let's not sexualize children perhaps.
SARAH: Yeah. Another thing that was on that board was Jesus.
KAYLA: Here's my thing with this, I hope I don't offend anyone here. I was raised Catholic.
SARAH: Same.
KAYLA: Here's the thing, I know Jesus apparently never had sex or whatever – You cannot tell me that Jesus and Mary Magdalene did not fuck. Do not @ me. If you guys don't have any experience in the Christian religion, this is going to make no sense to you. But those of you who –
SARAH: I don't even know that much about Mary Magdelene but I just trust you.
KAYLA: She was a prostitute and he like, saved her or whatever, and she became really important –
SARAH: I see.
KAYLA: And helped him out and whatever, but she was a prostitute as fuck and you can't, do not, you can't tell me that they didn't fuck. They fucked.
SARAH: Okay. All right.
KAYLA: That’s all. I don't mean to offend, I’m mostly kidding.
SARAH: It's funny.
KAYLA: I just think it's very funny to think about. I’m not being serious though. I just, you know, I want to read some fanfiction about it.
SARAH: True.
KAYLA: We're going to have an episode about fanfiction at some point, and I would like to find some Jesus fanfiction.
SARAH: Yep. Hella yeah. Those are the main characters I found. If you guys have any other ones that you think are ace, let us know, I want to know what you think.
KAYLA: Please do.
SARAH: We ended up talking way longer than I thought we would about that.
KAYLA: We have a lot of –
SARAH: I got a lot of feelings.
KAYLA: Well also I needed plot reviews of literally everything.
SARAH: True.
KAYLA: Which is good because if they don't know, now you know.
SARAH: You might still be kind of confused because I was just dropping character names. But yeah, let us know if you have any other ones that you think. What's our poll?
KAYLA: Should we do like what character do you most think is ace?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Okay. So we'll do Katniss, Sherlock. Doctor Who –
SARAH: The Doctor.
KAYLA: The Doctor Who – Doctor Whom?
SARAH: Doctor Whom?
KAYLA: Who else?
SARAH: Should we just do –
KAYLA: Jesus. I’m going to vote for Jesus, yeah.
SARAH: Alright, so who do you identify most with being ace? You can think that more than one is ace, but the one who you find you most relate to most perhaps, or if you really –
KAYLA: Or just the one that you think is the most funny, AKA Jesus.
SARAH: I don’t want to pit aces against each other, but we're doing this poll anyway.
KAYLA: It’s not going to pit anyone against each other. It’s in good fun, please don't get offended by the Jesus thing, I just think it's funny.
SARAH: It's not like you can be like more or less ace but just the one that stands out to you the most. So we've got Katniss, we've got – I already forgot.
KAYLA: Sherlock.
SARAH: Sherlock, we've got The Doctor and we’ve got Jesus. So you can find that poll on our Twitter which is @soundsfakepod. You can also find us on our Tumblr which a lot of people seem to have found –
KAYLA: Seem to have found recently. Hello there ma’ams, sirs.
SARAH: Our Tumblr is soundfakepod.tumblr.com, it's a grand old time. What else? We have an email, soundsfakepod@gmail.com if you want to either Tweet us or email us your thoughts.
KAYLA: I would love that, we recently got an email and it made us very pleased.
SARAH: I thought you meant recently we got an email account.
KAYLA: No, we've had it – I mean, recently someone sent us an email and it made us very happy, and we're currently dying over finals, so it makes us very happy.
SARAH: Please help us survive. But yeah, where can they listen, Kayla?
KAYLA: You can listen at SoundCloud, iTunes, Stitcher Radio, Overcast, I don't – I’m sorry there's a lot of other ones.
SARAH: I don’t know, that’s a good job.
KAYLA: Podcast Addict. Listen, anywhere you find your things, we’re there. So drop us a comment, maybe comment what other characters you think are ace or just reply to our poll with that, and leave us a little review on iTunes, that would be super neat.
SARAH: We also have a Patreon. If you want to donate money to this weird podcast we wouldn’t be mad.
KAYLA: You can see the articles from this episode.
SARAH: Yeah, we have all those articles on our Patreon. You will not have to be a patron to see them though, it'll be open everyone. But our patrons – we got a new patron.
KAYLA: (gasps)
SARAH: She’s a $5 patron, her name is Sydney Mook, and she’s so nice.
KAYLA: She’s so sweet, I’m obsessed with Sydney Mook.
SARAH: Same. Kayla was like, look at this message.
KAYLA: I literally died when we got that email, I peed my pants everywhere.
SARAH: Anyway, Sydney’s Instagram is @sydneymoo. I’ve gotten so used to reading out the other ones that reading a new one is hard.
KAYLA: Yeah, she has a cat, I think?
SARAH: That’s nice.
KAYLA: Go look at her cat. I want a cat. I would like Sydney Mook’s cat.
SARAH: Sydney, can we have your cat?
KAYLA: Can you patron us with your cat?
SARAH: I think she's going to say no. Alright, our next $5 patron is Jennifer Smart. She is still lovely, we still love you Jennifer. Her YouTube channel is Lehen Productions, she's got some cool stuff there. It's great, it's a grand old time. Then we have Asritha who is advertising her existence also on Instagram.
KAYLA: She recently saw Mean Girls The Musical –
SARAH: We said that last week.
KAYLA: Dammit. No, we said she was going to, she actually saw it this week.
SARAH: No I think – whatever.
KAYLA: (sighs)
SARAH: Her Instagram is @asritha_v. Then we have our $10 patron which is Emma and she is still just living her life.
KAYLA: She also has a cat.
SARAH: Cat pics, Christmas tree pics, all the good stuff. Her Twitter and Instagram are both @emmatfink.
KAYLA: We’ll be doing her episode soon.
SARAH: Soonish. Thank you for listening, tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your cows.