Ep 137: Asexuality Does NOT Equal Heterosexuality
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SARAH: Hey, what's up? Hello. Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl, I'm Sarah, that's me.
KAYLA: And a demi-straight girl, that's me, Kayla.
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.
KAYLA: On today's episode, being straight.
BOTH: Sounds fake, but okay.
[Intro Music]
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod.
KAYLA: Oh god. Uh, M’arscapone? That seems new. Hold on, I'm adjusting.
SARAH: I don't even know if that's new.
KAYLA: There's no way I've done M’arscapone. I really need to like take…
SARAH: What is Marscapone?
KAYLA: It's like a sweet, I think.
SARAH: Oh, it's Marzipan. Sorry, I only know the word in German.
KAYLA: “I actually only know the word in German.” Hold on, I actually realized that makes me remember I have several emails to share with everyone.
SARAH: Oh, okay.
KAYLA: We got some good emails.
SARAH: Oh fuck, I never read the Triedmitta…
KAYLA: Well, I'll read it to you.
SARAH: Okay
KAYLA: We got some good emails over the weekend. Because I think we have some new listeners. Hello, sorry. And… So, they're listening to the backlog. One of them, do you remember years, literal years ago, when we did the Sex-tiquette episode?
SARAH: Yeah, I remember that it happened. That's about all I remember.
KAYLA: Yeah, so we asked people to send in their horror stories, and I'm not going to read this whole email because it's rather long. But, basically this very nice person emailed us with their absolute horrid story of they were staying with two friends in the college dorm for a weekend, you know, when you go and visit your other friend's college or whatever?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And she was sharing a room with this guy and this girl who she was friends with who were dating. And the one night, they had sex in the bunk above her, and she was like, that's… I hate this. But then, so the next night, she was like, how about we all sleep on the floor together and have like, move the mattresses on the floor, have a sleepover, it'll be fun. And she was like, there's no way they can have sex now.
SARAH: Oh no. Oh no.
KAYLA: But then she woke up in like the early morning to find them having sex right next to her with like one of their feet was touching her. And then they were driving back and she was driving them and she dropped the girl off first. And then the guy was like, um, she was too shy to say this, but we were wondering if you'd be interested in like being a third person in our relationship.
SARAH: Oh my God
KAYLA: And she was like, but I kind of already am because I had to…
SARAH: But I kind of already am.
KAYLA: They also were all from Michigan and went to some colleges in Michigan, which I won't say for privacy. But…
SARAH: Oh, I will absolutely be reading that email.
KAYLA: You really, Sarah, you really must. Reading the whole thing is a wild journey, start to finish. Absolutely insane.
SARAH: Oh wow.
KAYLA: The other email is from last week when we were talking about our sexual innuendos and we had the German one. What was it, Sarah?
SARAH: Blitzkrieg mit der Fleischgewehr.
KAYLA: So, it's something about, what is it about? Lightning rod?
SARAH: Lightning war with the meat rifle.
KAYLA: Yes. So, a very nice listener named Max emailed and said that the phrase… I don’t know if they’re German or if they just know this, I don’t know if they said, but basically the phrase comes from a song called Pussy by the German band Rammstein.
SARAH: Rammstein. Is that from Rammstein?
KAYLA: Sure.
SARAH: It's Rammstein.
KAYLA: Okay. Which regularly hinted at right-wing slash Nazi ideology. The band was therefore often criticized for reenactment, despite their critical stance they took to such ideas. The album the song is from is called Lieb ist für alle da. Love is for everyone?
SARAH: Lieb ist für alle da?
KAYLA: I kind I did a good job. Which I guess is ironic.
SARAH: I'm just guessing based on your pronunciation.
KAYLA: I guess it is ironic because a lot of the songs talk about some bad things with abuse. So, they say if the phrase for the lightning and the meat stick is disgusting, it's because it was intended to be repelling.
SARAH: That checks out. Rammstein is a wild time.
KAYLA: So yeah, those are just some emails from our inbox that I thought I would share.
SARAH: How exciting.
KAYLA: I guess
SARAH: Okay. Well on that note, Kayla, what are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: This week, listen, so last week asexual was trending on Twitter, which can mean good things and bad things. Usually, it comes…
SARAH: Usually both.
KAYLA: So basically, Nickelodeon tweeted about SpongeBob, or tweeted about their queer characters, included SpongeBob, everyone was like, “oh my god, SpongeBob is gay.”
SARAH: And then turned off replies and left.
KAYLA: Yeah, they really did turn off the replies and leave, which is, I mean, I get it. But anyway, then everyone was like, “no, he's asexual, the creator said literally 15 years ago that he was asexual,” but then there's like, okay, is that a good thing though, because he's a sponge. And we'll get in, we'll probably cover the SpongeBob thing at a later date. Anyway, basically a lot of aphobia came about, as it does when asexuality is on Twitter. And you know, there was the usual “asexual people aren't in the queer community, blah blah blah.” Which led me to this topic, which I think we've talked about it lightly in other episodes. And I did tweet about it, because I was going off on Twitter when I was supposed to be helping my sister move into her new apartment.
SARAH: I sure saw the tweets and I texted Kayla and I was like, it's getting spicy.
KAYLA: Sometimes you feel spicy. And so basically today we're talking about the heteronormative idea that people seem to have that ace people are just actually straight.
SARAH: Yeah. Well because a lot of... I didn't pay that close attention to the SpongeBob discourse because on one hand, I don't fucking care. But also, the thing that just frustrated me most was people being like, “no he's gay,” “no he's ace,” he can be both.
KAYLA: He can… Have you seen... I texted Sarah, I was like have you seen Daniel? He's both. Have you seen Daniel?
SARAH: Yeah. Hey, Slice of Ace? Have you seen Slice of... do you even watch Slice of Ace? Do you even…
KAYLA: No, bruh?
SARAH: But like he could be homoromantic, asexual, and I mentioned that to my roommate and he was like what? And I was like I'm not getting into this.
KAYLA: Oh, James, sweet summer child.
SARAH: Sweet summer child. But it's like he can literally be both, nothing fucking matters. But yeah, there is this assumption that either ace people are still somehow straight or just the general societal assumption that straight is the default. Like let's not. There is no default.
KAYLA: Yeah, I just… like I think there's already with aphobic people the assumption that like asexuality isn't a sexuality. You just like don't want to have sex and therefore you're just straight and don't want to have sex. And I just like, it's just very, it's just very upsetting to see within the queer community, which I also… someone yelled at me for saying queer community. But like, I get that some people don't like using the word queer, but also like if I want it, whatever.
SARAH: Yeah. As a person who I identify as queer, if I want to use the word queer, I can.
KAYLA: Yeah, I just… it's like a personal thing. You shouldn't be...
SARAH: If you don't want to, you don't have to.
KAYLA: Yeah, no, that's fine. But like, anyway. It's just like, I mean, aphobia is like most upsetting to see, I think, within the queer community in general, but then to see the queer community or members of it also like having such heteronormative ideas is just like, guys, I thought we like, you're supposed to be the good ones.
SARAH: You're supposed to be the ones who get it.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: I was trying to think of, when I was thinking about how like, straight isn't the default sexuality, I was trying to think of like an equivalent comparison, and I was like, okay, white isn't the default race, but it's often treated that way.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: So, I was like trying to think of an example. The only thing I could think of is like saying that brown is the default eye color, just because there are more people who have brown eyes than any other color. I don't know how good of a metaphor that is though.
KAYLA: Yeah, I think that one's hard also because I think blue eyes are the ideal in society.
SARAH: That's true.
KAYLA: So, I feel like if any eye color were to be the “default,” it would be blue. Anyway.
SARAH: But because of reasons of genetics, fewer people have it. I'm just special, Kayla.
KAYLA: Yeah, and my eyes look like poo. Dean literally told me yesterday, we were Face Timing, he was like, I love looking into your eyes because it's like looking in little pools of poo.
SARAH: Listen, brown eyes are great. They do all sorts of fun things.
KAYLA: They do look good when they're like…
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SARAH: I say as a person who has blue eyes.
KAYLA: Yeah, fuck you. The only time brown eyes, I think, well, the only time I think my eyes look special is when the light hits them directly, they kind of glow. Anyway, this isn't anything.
SARAH: I know what you're talking about.
KAYLA: This isn't anything, though. It has been a long day, folks.
SARAH: It's just a bad metaphor.
KAYLA: It's fine. Yeah, I mean, well, no, because that's also a color thing. I was going to say the default ice cream is vanilla, but that's maybe kind of racist, too.
SARAH: I don't know. Nothing makes sense.
KAYLA: Nothing matters. I don't know. I think it's just this weird thing of, okay, in a way you can look at asexuality or aromanticism as a lack of sexuality, which isn't how it works, but I can see how anyone could kind of go at it from that stance.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: But… well, okay, so I mean the problem with that stance though is that it assumes that if you were to put asexuality, quote unquote, there, that, it's like the same thing you were saying, that people assume that heterosexuality is the norm. And so, if you're like, okay, this person, quote unquote, lacks a sexuality, let me put one on them, then they just automatically go to straight.
SARAH: Right. And I… like in terms of asexuality being supposedly the lack of asexuality, I often think of like, I mean obviously we've talked about this, the way that we are always talking about asexuality on the podcast is the sexuality of not being attracted to anyone, right? But like, a lot of times people refer to asexuality as like, in reference to like a character or a persona, like I'm just thinking of Sharonna J Brown's article where she was talking about like the asexuality of Mammy. And like, that's like not the same. And I think sometimes people even in the community don't get that when you're talking about the absence of a sexuality in like media or something is not necessarily the same thing as an individual being asexual.
KAYLA: Yeah, I think that's a… yeah, that's a very interesting thought because I think with this SpongeBob thing, too, a lot of people are like, okay, it's a cartoon character. It's a kid character. Like, you shouldn't put a sexuality on them, which is like, that's another argument for another time. But like, I do… like there is a difference between like you looking at a real life three-year old and being like, okay, they don't like they haven't had like a sexual awakening. So, like, you would kind of put the characteristic of asexual on them because they don't have the capacity to think about higher level concepts like that. But there's a difference between that like, and actually being it.
SARAH: Yeah, and I think the especially difficult thing for aspec communities in particular is because there is a certain asexuality applied to children when they're young because they're children. And like, the… no five-year-old that I've ever heard of is like, I want to have sex.
KAYLA: Yeah, if they do, they're probably watching some interesting TV.
SARAH: Yeah, but like, that's just there's… there is a certain asexuality to children, but it is the asexuality in terms of not like it's hard to differentiate between the two I wish there were different words.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: To differentiate between like, not placing a sexuality on a person versus the sexuality of being asexual and not feeling attraction to other people, but that is part of the problem with aceness is that you. Although obviously, as an adult, I can look back at my childhood and be like, oh yeah, I was so ace. When you are a child, you don't necessarily see that in the same way that you might see a gay kid or a trans kid. Trans kids know young that they're trans.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: A lot of otherwise queer kids know from a young time that they have a crush on the X person. And it's not sexual necessarily at that point, but it is kind of like a little kid romance crush. And because aromantic people won't have that, it's just harder to identify until you're older. And so, I think it just feels like it's kind of a different category of queerness sometimes, which I feel like is another reason why it might be pushed away by other members of the queer community, just because our realizing we're an aro or ace or whatever on the spectrum, we don't have the same experience in terms of the questioning period.
KAYLA: Yeah. So, I think now I'm just going off on a tangent, but that's fine because that's this podcast.
SARAH: It's the podcast.
KAYLA: But I think… when I was thinking about this topic, I was thinking the other day, when people go to explain the act of sex to their kids or where babies come from, it's like the cliche like…
SARAH: When a man and a woman love each other very much…
KAYLA: Right. But even if you were explaining a gay couple, you would be like, well, mommy and daddy love each other like this and those men love each other the same way. But literally, how would you explain asexuality to a kid without explicitly saying sex? And I don't know that that's necessarily a problem. I do think sex needs to be less taboo and sex education should start younger and whatever, but it's hard to break the norm of straightness with a child…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Because if you're raising your child as inclusively as possible and you talk to them openly about different sexualities, chances are you're not going to talk about sex. You're going to say love, you're going to say couple, whatever. But to be inclusive of asexuality and keep in mind the split model of attraction, with a child that's incredibly difficult, children don't, especially on the younger side as they get older of course, but on the younger side they just don't…
SARAH: They don’t get the nuance
KAYLA: They don’t have the process for that.
SARAH: Yeah, and I think it's obviously going to be easier to explain aromanticism than asexuality, but I think even aromanticism is a little bit harder to tangibly understand as a child because when you're talking about these two men love each other, these two women love each other, these two non-binary people love each other, this man loves this non-binary person, they're able to look at the people around them and see what kind of relationships people have and apply them to different genders and different combinations and stuff, whereas for aromanticism it's a little bit harder for them to be like you know this person doesn’t feel that way towards other people but they still have a fulfilling life, like it's hard to be like, okay, well this is the line between romance and platonic relationships and it’s like this child is three…
KAYLA: Yeah, well, yeah, to a child, platonic love and romantic love are probably the same. I don't think children realize that the love that their parents have for each other is different than them and their best friend
SARAH: I highly doubt that young children really grasp that
KAYLA: Yeah, like a three-year-old doesn't know
SARAH: Yeah, and so it's complicated
KAYLA: It's been a tangent
SARAH: It's a true tangent
KAYLA: It's true, but I just… I don't know, I think the assumption of straightness as well as the regular things that come along, like the regular phrases or whatever of aphobia of like, oh you're just childish, you're just not mature, you are just traumatized still has the assumption of like, you have a certain sexuality, you're just too x, y, z to know that
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: Necessitates the thought that there is a true “underlying sexuality” that is then assumed…
SARAH: That's being like suppressed by whatever
KAYLA: That is then assumed to be straight
SARAH: Yeah, yeah, I also think when Kayla brought up this topic with me, it made me think of the question of like, what sexuality would you be if you weren't ace? Which we've literally talked about that on this podcast before
KAYLA: Yeah. We've done a whole episode on that, but
SARAH: That's something we've discussed. But like, it's kind of, on its face it's kind of an absurd question, because like bitch I'm ace, like I don't know, I could make some guesses I have made guesses, they're in a previous episode of the pod if you want to track them down but like, it's not like you would walk up to a gay person and be like, if you weren't gay, what would your sexuality be? Or perhaps even a better example might be like walking up to a bi or pan person and being like, if you weren't bi or pan, what would your sexuality be? Like, there's no answer to that
KAYLA: Yeah. I do also think, like it brings up this interesting question, something that I've… like as I've spent more time in the ace community, seen more is like oriented aro-ace people where they're like, I'm aro-ace but I'm oriented like gay or lesbian which I think would be interesting to do a whole episode on that because I don't think that's a way you identify, Sarah, and that doesn't really apply to me.
[00:20:00]
KAYLA: So, it's not something that we have like first-hand experience on, but I do kind of wonder from, I don't know that aphobes are even aware that that exists because I don't think they care enough to like read into the nuance of everything and that is like similar to micro identities that is kind of a more nuanced part but I would be interested, not that I want to talk to an aphobe, but I would be interested in hearing like if you're an aro-ace and oriented lesbian, are you then allowed in the queer community? Like if you're aro-ace and oriented straight, then what are you?
SARAH: Yeah. Do you want to explain to people, I guess a little bit better, what people mean when they say that they're aro-ace oriented a certain way?
KAYLA: Yeah, I mean I won't pretend to have the best knowledge of it, so if I'm wrong someone completely tell me and I will correct myself in future episodes. But from what I understand is, if we kind of understand the split model of attraction, of course there's romantic and sexual, which if you're aro-ace then you're aromantic asexual. But there's also two or more other kinds of attraction with sensual attraction…
SARAH: Sensual
KAYLA: Sensual attraction I mean even platonic kind of leanings, aesthetic attraction. So, from what I understand is someone that's like aro-ace but oriented gay, then they would be aromantic asexual but maybe they lean more towards being aesthetically or sensually…
SARAH: Sensually
KAYLA: Sensually attracted to someone of the same gender or the opposite gender, whatever. There's more than two genders. So, it's kind of like I'm aro-ace but I lean, my interests kind of lean a certain way.
SARAH: Yeah and like I, me as an aro-ace person, I don't really have that experience but I also, I almost want to say like the people who are able to recognize that are almost just like woker aces and I don't mean that in the sense that they're like actually more woke, it's just like when I'm comparing my experience to that, like I grew up assuming I was straight and so then I figured out I was aro-ace and I realized I was not straight but I thought I was straight just because society was like that's the default, right? And so, like for people who understand that they're oriented a certain way, I'm like you are on another plane of existence.
KAYLA: I think it does take like a lot of kind of self-understanding of like, because I'm like, I guess from where you stand, obviously you don't orient a certain way but from growing up thinking you were straight, I can imagine that in your mind, like, you'd be like, well, if I was oriented a certain way, maybe I would orient straight because that's just what you've assumed your whole life. Like I think it takes a lot of time and a lot of thought to be like, okay, here's what I've assumed but is that actually true and how do I know that?
SARAH: Yeah, like you're looking into yourself and being like, okay, is this what has been assigned to me or is this how I actually feel? And that's not something that for me I care enough to like dive into. Like I'm aro-ace, I don't really think I orient a certain way and if I did, I wouldn't really care. But for some people, you know, that's something that they want to know or they feel is a part of them. So, by all means, figure that shit out.
KAYLA: Yeah, I think it's particularly probably, I guess to you, I don't know that would be incredibly relevant. Like you're not dating, you don't have sex as far as I know. But…
SARAH: Surprise!
KAYLA: Surprise. But for asexual people who are like “sex positive,” who do like participate in sex, who do date, it would like make a difference who you orient towards because maybe you orient towards women and so you're like well these are the people I want to like have sex with if I am going to have sex.
SARAH: Right. Yeah. That's fair. Whereas I'm just like I'd like to read a book.
KAYLA: I'm good, thanks.
SARAH: I'm perfectly fine. Oh man, yeah. But listen, y'all aro-aces or just aspec people who know which way you orient, you are on another plane of existence and I admire that about you.
KAYLA: Yeah, it's just… not to say that if you aren't that you should feel bad.
SARAH: You… don't, don't because I'm not that and it's… I’m just like, oh, okay, cool.
KAYLA: I also like it does… I think it could if you're interested in kind of understanding where you might orient, it could like prolong the questioning process in for some people, maybe a painful way. So, I don't want anyone to feel pressured to like, well, fuck, I just figured out I'm ace and now I have to like delve into the six other types of attraction. Like, no, it's okay.
SARAH: Yeah, you really don't.
KAYLA: It's like if you don't feel the need, then don't. But if you do, that's great. And you have a great understanding of yourself and congratulations.
SARAH: Yeah. And I feel like a lot of people, specifically people who are questioning whether they're aromantic or not. Like, I think if you start thinking too much about which way you orient, then you might start questioning, like, am I actually aro?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And I think that's a pretty common problem, even for people who aren't thinking about which way they orient, but they're just, you know, society has told them that they are, you know, straight is the default, right?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: So, like, I mean, that was an issue I had where I was like, do I have a crush on this boy or do I just want to be friends with this boy? I can't tell. And it was because of the assumptions that society placed on me that made me question whether or not I was actually aromantic. And that's something that I think a lot of aros really struggle with, because it's kind of easier to discern if you feel sexually attracted to someone than if you feel romantically attracted to them. I feel like there's a harder line. So, it's just, it's a wild time.
KAYLA: Yep
SARAH: I guess here's a question. How do we, as a society, or just to people who are parents or people who are dealing with children or whatever, how do you remove the idea that straight is the default?
KAYLA: I mean, I think there's two levels of wokeness here.
SARAH: Okay
KAYLA: I think the first level and the easiest level is removing the assumption of straightness. The second, deeper, much more difficult level is removing the assumption of a romantic or a sexual attraction at all.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Which is much more niche, and maybe asexual and aromantic people are the only people that care about that level.
SARAH: Yeah, I think it just goes back to what I was saying earlier about how there's a difference between being aromantic in terms of not assigning something to a child and being aromantic or asexual in terms of not feeling that attraction. And I think it just goes to further the idea that there are some different things about being aspec than other queer identities and there's no going around that. It's a slightly different experience and if we want queer communities to embrace that, we're going to have to get queer communities to accept us first.
KAYLA: Yeah. I think every sexuality comes with its own unique issues…
SARAH: Baggage
KAYLA: And also, good things as well, obviously. But…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And we've talked about this a lot, the thing about asexuality and aromanticism is people just inherently don't get it. They can't often wrap their minds around it and so that's… I mean that’s very difficult. And I think… like the thing about removing the assumption of straightness is that a lot more people have a stake in that issue.
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: Like that’s every sexuality is going to be interested in getting that forward. I don't know, not that many queer people care enough to be like, I am not aspec but I will help you do this. You know?
SARAH: Right, yeah. I mean there's also the fact that makes it much more difficult is that all of us were raised in a heteronormative society where straightness has been considered the default. And so, it's a lot harder to teach to children that there isn't a single default when our brains are hardwired to think there is, even if we know logically that there is no default. Like we were still raised to assume that there was. And I think that's part of the problem with trying to figure out how to remove this assumption from society is like, it's especially hard for us to do it because we had the assumption thrust upon us our whole lives.
KAYLA: Yeah, I mean I think especially for people raised by straight, cis parents, like...
SARAH: There's a lot of unlearning to do.
[00:30:00]
KAYLA: Right. Like I think children who grew up with queer parents definitely have an upper hand in the learning process because from a young age they were like, oh I have two moms, I have two dads, I have whatever. And so, they grew up understanding that there is both. But for me, I can't tell you how old I was when I learned there was gay people, but there was a point where I learned. Like you don't just like, you know what I mean. It's something that comes later in life when you get exposure to outside families and everything.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But yeah, it is hard because we don't have a model for like, oh well this is how my mom and dad taught me about this, so this is how I'm going to teach my children. I learned from the internet. What am I going to do, sit my three-year-old in front of a Tumblr and be like, okay go?
SARAH: Yeah, no I also understand that because even though, as I've discussed on this podcast, my dad's type of family is extraordinarily queer.
KAYLA: Incredibly.
SARAH: But the queerness really manifests itself in my generation. And so, when I was little, it's not like there were queer couples around or like that sort of thing. My godfather, a very close family friend, is gay, but it wasn't until I was... I believe he didn't come out until after I was born. And then it wasn't until I was probably in middle school that I ever remember him like seriously dating anyone. Maybe he did before that and I just… I wasn't aware. And then now of course he's married and he has a kid, but his daughter's only four. So, like she's obviously growing up with a very different understanding of things with her having two dads than I did when I was four. And despite there being so many queer people in my family, the queer people in my family were at that point still kids themselves or just not being as openly queer as we all are now.
KAYLA: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, I think the hard thing is like there's always going to be an issue there like your earliest models and your earliest understanding of things come from your parents or from whoever you're like growing up with in your household like it's very true I think that like romantic relationships and platonic relationships both like how you handle relationships often comes from. If you have two parents like seeing how your parents interact and seeing how they talk to each other. And so, like a lot of people who maybe have like their parents fought a lot, or they had like got a divorce those people might have like extra baggage coming in, because they didn't have great models of like what a “good relationship” looked like. Anyway, so people growing up with straight parents are always going to have some unlearning to do, because that's just their model.
SARAH: Yeah, I was also going to say people whose parents are very traditional in terms of gender roles. There's unlearning to do there. So, I think there's, you know, if your parents follow gender roles very specifically, there's a mother and a father and the mother kind of does everything for the father. You're going to have to unlearn that before you can unlearn anything else. Right?
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Like there's layers of unlearning. And so, depending on how you grew up, there might be a lot of unlearning to do. And as I saw in a tweet recently that resonated with me, it was about unlearning like racism. But like they're basically saying like, it's hard to unlearn stuff, you have to leave your ego at the door. Like this is this doesn't have to do with you.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: It's not about you. Stop making it about you.
KAYLA: No. I've caught myself a lot doing that, like the past couple of weeks, especially where I'll be thinking about like the racial issues going on. And then I'll be like, oh, shit, that makes me look like such a bad person to think that and then I'm like, well, fuck you. It's not about what it makes you look like. Also, that was just a thought you had to yourself. So, like, calm down. But like…
SARAH: Yeah. like, every time I have a racist thought, I'm like, oh, that's fucking racist.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And then like, I feel weird, and like guilty about it, which is like, good that I feel bad that I thought that. But also like, you just got to sit with it and be like, all right, I'm learning from this. It's hard. It's uncomfortable. But I'm going to do it. And I think that very same thing can apply to all of the things we're talking about with straightness as the default.
KAYLA: But I think like, so obviously, you grow up with a certain model, especially if your parents are traditional, there's going to be a lot of unlearning. But I do think if your parents are able to, like, start teaching you early, like, I've seen a lot of like, children's books recently that are like, there's two dads in this children's book, and you can like, use it as a way to teach your kids or whatever. Like, obviously, that's not going to do everything. But I think like, the sooner you can start unlearning, like from childhood like, the easier it's going to be when you grow up.
SARAH: Yeah, and I've also seen some discourse, again, this has been around race mostly, but I think it's also applicable here, some discourse about, like, children's books, how it's best if they, like, specifically address race. Like, I know that Kristen Bell recently came out with a book about, like, purple people, and full disclosure, I love KB, but there has been some criticism of, like, these books or like no one is purple. Like, don't give these kids metaphors, give them something concrete.
KAYLA: You know, kids don't do metaphors. They don't… like, I was a psychology major, and, like, kids' brains aren't big enough for that.
SARAH: Yeah, and so, like, it's well-intended, but you need to be explicit and distinct, and I think that same thing can apply to queerness.
KAYLA: Yeah. I mean, I think it might seem overbearing for people to, like, if you're watching a TV show with your kids and there's a gay character, I don't think it's a bad idea to pause the show and be like, let's talk about this. Like, even if your kid is young and a lot of it will go over their head, like, they take in a lot of information and speaking as someone who doesn't have children and knows nothing about parenting, like, I don't think there's anything wrong with being incredibly direct with your kids about that kind of stuff.
SARAH: Yeah. I mean, like, I have a horrible memory. I have the memory of a guppy. I don't remember a single goddamn thing. Like, was I a child at some point? I don't know, I guess. But I do have a very distinct memory of like, being in my den and, like, my mom, like, pulling up, like, a Facebook post that my cousin had made where he came out and she was being like, like, you know, this is okay, right? And we were like, yeah, duh.
KAYLA: How old were you?
SARAH: I have no idea.
KAYLA: Good.
SARAH: I really don't know.
KAYLA: Good.
SARAH: I guess I could ask my mom or I guess just ask my cousin how old he was when he came out and do some math. But, I mean, I was young enough. I think my cousin was in high school. And he's a handful of years older than me.
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: But like I still have that very distinct memory and that stuck with me. And even though at the time I was like, yeah, why are you making a big deal out of this? Sure, I don't care. But I still remember that. And I think if you are direct with kids with that sort of thing, they'll have a better grasp on it and they'll remember it.
KAYLA: Yeah, and I think a lot of what… I think we've been talking about is kind of directed towards straight people that will help educate your kids if they're straight. But like also, if your kid is queer and you have, I'm sure you and your sister having that vivid memory of your mom saying that helped you be comfortable coming out to your parents.
SARAH: Yeah. Yeah. Like my sister has said that she… like coming out is hard, right?
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: But my sister never really, I mean I don't want to speak for her, but never really had any true concerns about our parents just throwing us to the cab.
KAYLA: Yeah. I mean there's other...
SARAH: Some people do have that experience, but like because we grew up...
KAYLA: There's other things to be... yeah.
SARAH: Right. So, like it was still a scary time, but like because we'd had that conversation with our mom, we knew that it wasn't going to be like, well...
KAYLA: Goodbye.
SARAH: Kicking you to the curb.
KAYLA: Yeah. So, like I think it can just like... it can do a lot of good of just like helping your kid understand and like just have a broader view of what people are like, but also then reassure them if they grow up and later or even when they're a child realize they're queer, then they're going to be like, well, mom talked to me about this, so seems like she's chill.
SARAH: Yeah, and I think even for queer people who have kids, like it's important to talk about this stuff and be specific with your kid slash kids too, because whatever your experience of sexuality and queerness is and whatever they see you doing is not necessarily going to be the standard because guess what? There's no standard.
[00:40:00]
KAYLA: Oh no.
SARAH: So… oh, no. So, I think… I mean I think this applies to everyone and you have to start with kids. I know we've been focusing a lot on how to talk to kids.
KAYLA: But like it really starts there, or it should.
SARAH: Yeah, and as an adult, the unlearning, I guess the difference is as a kid, it's learning, and as an adult, it's unlearning.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And it's a very different approach you take. And I think it's so important to start getting into the heads of parents and being like, you need to make sure that your kid is not learning something the wrong way, so that they have to unlearn it when they're older.
KAYLA: Well, it's kind of like, I think it's a similar concept of not just being not racist, but being anti-racist. It's not enough to be like, well, I'm an inclusive person, so my kid is probably going to grow up to be the same way. You need to take an active approach to talk to your kid about all this stuff, about race, about sexuality, about all of that. You can't just assume that they will somehow inherently pick up whatever you're putting out
SARAH: Right. You don't know what your kids are going to hear when they go to school
KAYLA: True
SARAH: Or when they go to daycare, or when they go hang out on the playground. You can't control that. What you can control is what you teach them about what is right and what is wrong.
KAYLA: And also, kids, it's just so much easier for kids to learn.
SARAH: Their brains are like clay.
KAYLA: They pick up languages super-fast, they do whatever. It's so hard for adults to learn anything or unlearn it.
SARAH: Literally, if I tried to put something new in my brain right now, it would just…
KAYLA: It would just fall right out.
SARAH: You know in the second Hunger Games in Catching Fire, how they discover that if you get to the edge of the arena and you throw something at the force field or whatever it is, it'll just fly back?
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: That's what my brain is like with new information.
KAYLA: Oh, interesting.
SARAH: Yeah, it'll just come flying back out at you.
KAYLA: How… if that's true, how do people in the Hunger Games send them gifts? Where do the gifts come from?
SARAH: They came through the ceiling. Because the arena has a ceiling.
KAYLA: So, was there a hole in the ceiling?
SARAH: You could go, remember in Catching Fire when at the very end when they destroy the arena, what happens, major spoilers guys…
KAYLA: It's so many years old.
SARAH: What happens is like… I'm also thinking like in the movie there's like hexagonal things. And so, you know, they can like kind of like turn them on and off. Like so you can send stuff through…
KAYLA: So, here's why I'm asking… And now it's a whole different topic and the podcast is basically over.
SARAH: The podcast is basically over but stick around for some fun.
KAYLA: I know that that dome is tall and that this wouldn't really be possible. But all I'm saying is if you got high enough you could just get out the hole when the gift came. And I know there's cameras watching them. And I know this is impossible. But I still want to put this idea forward that they could just crawl out the hole and run away.
SARAH: Okay. I have a lot of things to say about that.
KAYLA: Oh no, our fourth disagreement.
SARAH: I wouldn't call this my fourth disagreement. I'm just saying that the ceiling of the arena is so high that it literally looks like a sky.
KAYLA: I know
SARAH: There's no way. I don't care how tall the highest tree is.
KAYLA: I know
SARAH: There's absolutely no way. And second of all, when the gifts and stuff come through or when the hovercraft or whatever come through to get the bodies, they're going through the ceiling, for lack of a better word, very quickly. It's not like it's like, we're going to open this big old door.
KAYLA: I just think it's an interesting idea to think about. I just think it's an interesting option to theorize about.
SARAH: It's not like a giant garage door.
KAYLA: I just think it's interesting.
SARAH: Okay.
KAYLA: I just think it's a nice thought to have.
SARAH: I don't know if I've mentioned this on the pod, but I did recently reread Catching Fire and that book slaps.
KAYLA: She sent me every quote that insinuated that Katniss was ace. Every single time I'd get a picture of this dang book.
SARAH: I sent her so many pictures of the book of Katniss being aro-ace.
KAYLA: Just more evidence that… and I was like, I get it, and then they kept coming. I basically reread the whole book also.
SARAH: I wouldn't say that.
KAYLA: I don't know, it kind of felt like it.
SARAH: The second book really does slap, though.
KAYLA: I think I read the first one and that was it.
SARAH: It's better than the third because I skimmed some of the third. The ending of the third really just makes me so mad. I didn't reread any of the first, but the first and the second are just different experiences. The second really felt like it resonated with what we were going through in life at that time. Like right now.
KAYLA: I think I was too young when I tried to read the first one and it was too much for me and I just never went back.
SARAH: I read it in eighth grade, because I remember I was reading the books when I was in Germany. So, I have a very specific timeline of when I read them.
KAYLA: Interesting. Yeah, I don't know. Anyway. Is this episode over?
SARAH: This episode is brought to you by aro-ace Katniss. Aro-ace Katniss. She's aro-ace. Shut the fuck up.
KAYLA: I love how we have ads now.
SARAH: That was fully Dear Hank and John style where they just insert fake ads.
KAYLA: You know who else does that is John Mulaney and Nick Kroll their podcast they do that but they'll overlay it over themselves talking. So you can hear them still talking in the background but then other them talking atop. It's very funny.
SARAH: Oh my god. Amazing. Alright. Well on that note, what's our poll for this week?
KAYLA: Maybe like how do you think we can teach children about sexuality?
SARAH: I don't know. Sure?
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: Tea. Alright. You'll find something on our twitter. Oh, Kayla, what's your beef and your juice this week?
KAYLA: My beef is that the internet, my beef, I guess more broadly, is mansplaining. This happens a lot at work where I… in my email at work, ooh, sushi for dinner. Sorry. My mom texted me.
SARAH: Fuck you.
KAYLA: Sorry.
SARAH: I'm leaving that in.
KAYLA: Good. My email at work, we have like little pictures and you can see very clearly that me and a lot of my coworkers are like young women. So, it happens quite often where we will like email someone from another business or a partner or something about work. And they, it's just very often that men that we email will like mansplain literally how to do our jobs back to us. We've all… me and my coworkers have all had several… we're all in marketing and we've had people respond to us telling us how to market better, which is fucked up. I've just had some internet experiences recently with men being rude to me, like definitely because I'm a woman and if I wasn't I don't think it would have happened. So that sucks.
SARAH: Nice.
KAYLA: My… anyway, my juice is that I am going to California next month, which is exciting. I don't know about her.
SARAH: Will she see me? No.
KAYLA: Probably not, unless Sarah wants to come visit me.
SARAH: San Francisco is so far away.
KAYLA: I know.
SARAH: It's like a five-hour drive.
KAYLA: Yeah. But it'll be fun to have I'm still going to be working, but having a mini.. having a having a mini vacation.
SARAH: Yeah. My beef is, so do you guys know how with iPhones, once you've had an iPhone for about two years, the Apple gives you about a one-to-two-month grace period, maybe three if Apple is feeling extra spicy. And then bam, Apple just kills your phone, and your phone becomes useless. It just stops working, because Apple is like, I'm going to break your phone so that you buy a new one. That happened to me yesterday. I was just now showing Kayla how useless my phone is. Me and Kayla had to do this podcast via Zoom because my fucking phone won't work.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: And my phone is basically just a large chunk of expensive metal right now. It doesn't really do anything. And luckily, my new phone is coming tomorrow. Luckily, I'm in a position where I can just get a new one. But I just hate that Apple fucking does that.
KAYLA: It's bad
SARAH: I could go on about this for days. My juice is... I'm getting a COVID test tomorrow.
KAYLA: Dean got one yesterday and he said it was very uncomfortable because they really get all up in your brain.
SARAH: I don't think that's the kind I'm going to have to do.
KAYLA: Oh, not the one that goes up your nose?
SARAH: No. I'm not positive. I'll keep you updated.
KAYLA: Okay. Please do.
SARAH: But yeah, I am getting a COVID test because I've been to some protests and I want to stay safe. If anyone out there who has been at protests, I highly recommend that you do what you can to try and get tested for COVID because safety.
KAYLA: Yeah, I am going to a protest tomorrow for Juneteenth and then obviously next month I'm getting on a plane so I'm definitely going to try to be getting some tests after those experiences.
SARAH: Yes indeed. Alright, you can tell us about your beef, your juice, how you're teaching your children how to not be aphobic on our social media @SoundsFakePod. You can also hit us up and support us on our Patreon, patreon.com/soundsfakepod. Kayla and I, and by that I mean Kayla, has been looking into transcription stuff.
KAYLA: Woof.
SARAH: We're going to be adding some new Patreon goals, correct? Is that what the point is?
KAYLA: Yeah, I think now that I've looked more into transcription, I've realized just how pricey it really is to get services that will let us do it quickly. So, once we hit our next goal, which is in $11, I think, so if you want to help us hit that, that would be great. We can start slowly getting transcriptions up for all of our new episodes that are coming up. And I think we're going to have some larger goals that will help us get the backlog up more quickly, because basically, to give you the nitty gritty of it, the cheapest services that are the ones we can afford still take a lot of manual labor on Sarah and I's part, so it just takes a long time, especially since we have full-time jobs. So, hopefully once we're more funded and we have more people supporting us, then we can get some higher tier, fancier transcription services that will let us get everything up a lot faster. But basically, we are working on it.
SARAH: We want to be more accessible. Hank Green sponsor our podcast.
KAYLA: Oh, my God Hank, the way you haven't emailed us back and it has been two whole days and it's not like you have a thousand emails. Like, why?
SARAH: It's not like he has a book coming out next month or like he runs a company or he has a YouTube channel or he has a child. Like, why didn't he just answer our email immediately? Anyway, if you don't know what we're talking about, don't worry about it.
KAYLA: Don't worry.
SARAH: Patreon.com/sounds fake pod. Our $5 patrons are Jennifer Smart, Astritha Vinnakota, Austin Le, Drew Finney, Perry Fierro, Dee, Megan Rowell, Quinn Pollock, Emily Collins, BookMarvel, Changeling MX, Derrick and Carissa, Simona Simon, Jamie jack, Jessica Shea, Rio Faustino, Daniel Walker, Barefoot Backpacker, Livy, Madeline Askew, Livy, Madeline Skew, Lily Funk, James, Corinne, Aliceisinspace, Sky Simpson, and Brooke Siegel. Hi, Brooke. Thanks for joining the party with our $5 patrons.
KAYLA: Thank you.
SARAH: Our $10 patrons are Kevin and Tessa @dirtyuncleKevin @Tessa_m_k, Arcness who'd like to promote the Trevor project, Benjamin Ybarra who'd like to promote Tabletop games, anonymous who’d like to promote Halloween, Sarah McCoy who'd like to promote podcasts from a planet weird, my aunt Jennie who'd like to promote Christopher’s Haven, Cassandra who'd like to promote their modeling Instagram @liddowred, Doug rice who would like to promote Native by Caitlin Curtis and Maggie Capellbo who'd like to promote her dog's Instagram @minniemuffin19 and H. Valdez. Our $15 patrons are Nathaniel White, Nathanieljwhitedesigns.com, my mom Julie who’d like to promote free mom hugs from a distance still except in New Zealand, Sarah… well, no. Still hugs can happen in New Zealand, not at a distance. She's not saying that the free mom hugs can't happen in New Zealand. I'm really just speaking for her here. Sarah Jones who is @eternallolli everywhere, Dea Chappelle who’d like to promote the podcast The Beacon, and Andy A who'd like to promote being in unions and IWW, and Dragonfly, who, as always, is promoting literacy.
KAYLA: That's a good one.
SARAH: You know, that's a good thing.
KAYLA: Why not?
SARAH: Yeah. Thanks for listening. Tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your cows.
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